Lovely. Psychopaths don't actually exist.
- Thread starter rs
- Start date
The author neglects to consider the influence of psychopaths, should they exist, on academia and the study of psychopathy itself. He mentioned one study noticed that psychopaths have selective empathy, but does that study consider if it's faked when convenient? Many non psychopaths also have selective empathy due to undeveloped emotional center - people just dissociate and ignore/rationalize things when they can. So there's the element of pathological influence of psychopathy on normal people making the lines blur. Maybe Gregory is is just ponerized?
Bottom line, I think the author is making a straw man argument because of his ignorance of psychopathic influence on normal people and society at large. He assumes someone he knows is a psychopath, yet seems to have some non psychopathic characteristics, and questions the whole premise rather than questioning his own diagnosis.
The waters are muddied by things like narcissism and narcissistic wounding and other pathologies and behaviors that share elements with psychopaths. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. Of psychopathy is due to childhood abuse, it seems like politicians and bankers and other people in positions of power and money must've all come from abusive childhoods? Hardly!
He says psychopathy is a comforting explanation. Ha! It's the least comforting thing ever. The comforting thing is to do what he's doing - project himself onto psychopaths and try to rationalize their behavior, exactly because he feels uncomfortable that there are inherently evil people running around. Exactly because he feels bad for not giving them the benefit of the doubt, and really wants to see them as humans in a struggle. He's projecting, critical correcting, rationalizing, and avoiding his own discomfort with the idea of ponerology - the study of evil. And that, combined with psychopathic influence on psychology itself, is how they remain hidden in plain sight. We so desperately cling to our rose colored glasses - our empathy blinds us if we let it.
Bottom line, I think the author is making a straw man argument because of his ignorance of psychopathic influence on normal people and society at large. He assumes someone he knows is a psychopath, yet seems to have some non psychopathic characteristics, and questions the whole premise rather than questioning his own diagnosis.
The waters are muddied by things like narcissism and narcissistic wounding and other pathologies and behaviors that share elements with psychopaths. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. Of psychopathy is due to childhood abuse, it seems like politicians and bankers and other people in positions of power and money must've all come from abusive childhoods? Hardly!
He says psychopathy is a comforting explanation. Ha! It's the least comforting thing ever. The comforting thing is to do what he's doing - project himself onto psychopaths and try to rationalize their behavior, exactly because he feels uncomfortable that there are inherently evil people running around. Exactly because he feels bad for not giving them the benefit of the doubt, and really wants to see them as humans in a struggle. He's projecting, critical correcting, rationalizing, and avoiding his own discomfort with the idea of ponerology - the study of evil. And that, combined with psychopathic influence on psychology itself, is how they remain hidden in plain sight. We so desperately cling to our rose colored glasses - our empathy blinds us if we let it.
SAO said:
That's pretty much what I got too. He has a point in saying that psychopathy is a wide term used a bit for everyone without making relevant distinctions. But he fails to see that though, indeed, there are many types of psychopaths and not good "medical labels" for them, it doesn't mean that they don't exist, or that some people aren't born evil, etc. So, he uses a pretty weak argument, IMO.
halogenlight02
A Disturbance in the Force
I agree fully that psychopaths can be difficult to spot because they can be very good at faking empathy at strategic times. I have/had a friend for over a decade whom I know fully well was a psychopath, yet each time I saw clear evidence of his condition directed towards myself and all others and as a result, parted ways, I was lured back into his company time and again being convinced he was a close friend and I a close friend to him. It is embarrassing to admit how many times I fell for this same ruse and turned a blind eye when this individual constantly lied and took advantage of others (which came very easy due to his "charming" personality). I remember multiple occasions witnessing bald faced lies to get things he wanted right in front of me - telling lies to what I thought were our mutual friends, saying things that he knew that I knew were lies in my company, followed by a wink wink, nudge nudge after the fact insinuating he would never lie to me! I know this is very vague but I'm not proud of being a duped psychopath victim for so long. I can take some solace in having first hand experience with ponerology which should help in immunizing me to these effects in the future.
One thing I did note from this individuals descriptions of his father's behavior was that this condition definitely does seem to be genetic.
One thing I did note from this individuals descriptions of his father's behavior was that this condition definitely does seem to be genetic.
Welcome to the forum halogenlight02! When you get a chance, could you post an introduction in this board, so that everyone knows you are here? Thanks!
Indeed, experiences like yours are something that unfortunately many of us have had. But, like you said, they provide an opportunity for learning. How else would we realize how insidious and double-faced psychopaths are? So, you're not alone on that one, and the pull IS strong. So, I would say that going back to him is just a sign that you are human. It happens until we know better, and even then, it can happen again unless we have a network of people who at the time is not "lured" in the same way and can wake us up.
As for it being genetic, I'm currently reading a book titled The Anatomy of Evil, and some of the studies that the author, Adrian Raine quotes, are pretty interesting. He makes a case for at least some cases being pretty indicative of "nature" more than "nurture". For example, he cites cases where a convicted murdered, super psycho individual, will abandon a baby a few days after birth. Then, that baby grows up into an adult that acts pretty much the same as his biological father, in spite of having been adopted by a pretty decent family. In other cases, the studies were done with identical twins separated at birth, and being born from psycho parents. Same thing. No matter how good the environment they grew up in was, they ended up having fairly strong psychopathic tendencies themselves.
Then there is the question of some genes that many "violent" types seems to have in common, as well as some abnormalities in the brain. But even with that evidence, it is still really hard to determine which cases are completely due to "nature", and which to "nurture", and different mixes of both.
Indeed, experiences like yours are something that unfortunately many of us have had. But, like you said, they provide an opportunity for learning. How else would we realize how insidious and double-faced psychopaths are? So, you're not alone on that one, and the pull IS strong. So, I would say that going back to him is just a sign that you are human. It happens until we know better, and even then, it can happen again unless we have a network of people who at the time is not "lured" in the same way and can wake us up.
As for it being genetic, I'm currently reading a book titled The Anatomy of Evil, and some of the studies that the author, Adrian Raine quotes, are pretty interesting. He makes a case for at least some cases being pretty indicative of "nature" more than "nurture". For example, he cites cases where a convicted murdered, super psycho individual, will abandon a baby a few days after birth. Then, that baby grows up into an adult that acts pretty much the same as his biological father, in spite of having been adopted by a pretty decent family. In other cases, the studies were done with identical twins separated at birth, and being born from psycho parents. Same thing. No matter how good the environment they grew up in was, they ended up having fairly strong psychopathic tendencies themselves.
Then there is the question of some genes that many "violent" types seems to have in common, as well as some abnormalities in the brain. But even with that evidence, it is still really hard to determine which cases are completely due to "nature", and which to "nurture", and different mixes of both.
JudgeDredd
A Disturbance in the Force
i just joined the forum to kickstart this thread again, prof raine incidentally is possibly one of the finest experts on the subject, he has the brain structure type associated with primary psychopathy yet he isnt one, hes very emotionally inert , even shares the yearning and convincing manner of the psychopath (i have intellectualist actively abusive psychopaths n the family), but hes knowingly awkward, he wears no mask, he looks perpetually startled but there is no masking of emotion attempted, he really sees the reality of the issues in a way others cannot quite fathom, the difference between his insight and keith fallons or kevin duttons excitable ,sexually excited glorifying take on the psychopath is profound and he is the one with the brain actually most like the serial killer type psychopaths in structure.
love of cruelty and a willingness to pursue it seems to be the big thing that separates two brains with "psychopathic topography" from one another, raine is not cruel in any way, he lacks insight massively but he is attempting it.
"dr" samuel vaknin on the other hand?
has true insights to share about behaviours , tactics and interpersonal manipuklations but he is gleefully actively and proudly interpersonally cruel.
you can watch raines viseos and learn unstressfully, he debates his own points, his logic sound, he counters his own points , good scientific reasoning.
Watch vaknin for five minutes and you want to smash his face in, which he gleefully acknowledges while telling you how its done.
The only reason he is there is to shine his ego and his schtick is to literally be the number 1 psychopath in the world.
it works, hes an utter bastard but you have to admire how he is willing to give up the goods (at least partially) on the worst monsters out there.
But there is no escaping this, until something might be done in child developmentto prevent the actuation of psychopathy or manage it in cases where the gentic component is very strong?
adult psychopaths do exist , very much so...if you are an offendor? and you have this brain structure?
and are an adult?
you will always be an offendor, socially or actually criminally,
the one thing that defines the psychopath above all others is the need to control by whatever means necessary ,,another beings physical or emotional pain and there by their behaviour and vice versa.
They require devotion to their way of thinking and if you divert from their plan for you? they will make you pay for it if they can.
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx
but that tube ? if the researchers find it in criminals?
is a direct 100% correlation with recidivism and a complete lack of capacity for remorse despite apparent affect, all the studies say this.
If you treat them? you increase the severity of this recidivism
thats the facts,
born with a brain that in some of them?
]will just end up conscienceless , uncaring , namipulative and above all callous...
attitude before puberty i suspect is the best indicator we have ...no boundaries in childhood and then sexual development kicks in?
=no boundaries in adulthood.
i remeber my psychopathic siblings change profoundly ar#t puberty- the moods darklker and more brooding than normal kids, it was the onset of meleancholy for life--- the gothic dress sense disappeared and the cure records went away in a cupboard...but they are returned to as a favourite, a nadir of their narcissism, the sexualisiation of the desire to cause pain...
they gain a knowing themn, a reassurance they know their difference, their sexual desires would get them arrested if instincually followed, society sets in and they cant openly bully anymore , its too obvious, so the modus switches to covert manipulation and narcissistic pomp, an air of or a very real sense of superiority .
Essentially there is a big mask change at puberty, my brother went from dress wearing bullying comedic little troublecauser and openl;y gleeful giggler, to a surly faced sarcastic , mean cajoling but oh so concerned and morally stoic on the outside..
a show for my psychopathic parents to prove he could do it, they wanted the same form me, iverly liberal invasive and toying with their kids one minute but when puberty arrived the way they treated us was very different, like we were all somehow dangerous and we should acknowledge it but "fgrowing up[" which meant totally hiding yiou real self and for my siblings who share the disorder going off and finding new victims,,,
nothing pleased my mother more than a marriage...it validated her graet parenting, utterly selfish she wants some grandkids to coo at and chram,
bloody awful creatures , adult ones...exist for sure and will never ever ever change.
aspd-p on the other hand?
thats a whole differnt clas of antisocial and if we learn a bit of charm off the psychopaths who conned us ?
how to communicate and illustrate a real idea?
rather than just a convincing ploy or perspective that essentailly apologises for evil?
well its all ive got.
even the literal truths they expose, mother...mine ? was more of a smother.
im glad some people have real ones.
love of cruelty and a willingness to pursue it seems to be the big thing that separates two brains with "psychopathic topography" from one another, raine is not cruel in any way, he lacks insight massively but he is attempting it.
"dr" samuel vaknin on the other hand?
has true insights to share about behaviours , tactics and interpersonal manipuklations but he is gleefully actively and proudly interpersonally cruel.
you can watch raines viseos and learn unstressfully, he debates his own points, his logic sound, he counters his own points , good scientific reasoning.
Watch vaknin for five minutes and you want to smash his face in, which he gleefully acknowledges while telling you how its done.
The only reason he is there is to shine his ego and his schtick is to literally be the number 1 psychopath in the world.
it works, hes an utter bastard but you have to admire how he is willing to give up the goods (at least partially) on the worst monsters out there.
But there is no escaping this, until something might be done in child developmentto prevent the actuation of psychopathy or manage it in cases where the gentic component is very strong?
adult psychopaths do exist , very much so...if you are an offendor? and you have this brain structure?
and are an adult?
you will always be an offendor, socially or actually criminally,
the one thing that defines the psychopath above all others is the need to control by whatever means necessary ,,another beings physical or emotional pain and there by their behaviour and vice versa.
They require devotion to their way of thinking and if you divert from their plan for you? they will make you pay for it if they can.
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx
but that tube ? if the researchers find it in criminals?
is a direct 100% correlation with recidivism and a complete lack of capacity for remorse despite apparent affect, all the studies say this.
If you treat them? you increase the severity of this recidivism
thats the facts,
born with a brain that in some of them?
]will just end up conscienceless , uncaring , namipulative and above all callous...
attitude before puberty i suspect is the best indicator we have ...no boundaries in childhood and then sexual development kicks in?
=no boundaries in adulthood.
i remeber my psychopathic siblings change profoundly ar#t puberty- the moods darklker and more brooding than normal kids, it was the onset of meleancholy for life--- the gothic dress sense disappeared and the cure records went away in a cupboard...but they are returned to as a favourite, a nadir of their narcissism, the sexualisiation of the desire to cause pain...
they gain a knowing themn, a reassurance they know their difference, their sexual desires would get them arrested if instincually followed, society sets in and they cant openly bully anymore , its too obvious, so the modus switches to covert manipulation and narcissistic pomp, an air of or a very real sense of superiority .
Essentially there is a big mask change at puberty, my brother went from dress wearing bullying comedic little troublecauser and openl;y gleeful giggler, to a surly faced sarcastic , mean cajoling but oh so concerned and morally stoic on the outside..
a show for my psychopathic parents to prove he could do it, they wanted the same form me, iverly liberal invasive and toying with their kids one minute but when puberty arrived the way they treated us was very different, like we were all somehow dangerous and we should acknowledge it but "fgrowing up[" which meant totally hiding yiou real self and for my siblings who share the disorder going off and finding new victims,,,
nothing pleased my mother more than a marriage...it validated her graet parenting, utterly selfish she wants some grandkids to coo at and chram,
bloody awful creatures , adult ones...exist for sure and will never ever ever change.
aspd-p on the other hand?
thats a whole differnt clas of antisocial and if we learn a bit of charm off the psychopaths who conned us ?
how to communicate and illustrate a real idea?
rather than just a convincing ploy or perspective that essentailly apologises for evil?
well its all ive got.
even the literal truths they expose, mother...mine ? was more of a smother.
im glad some people have real ones.
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