Marriage

[Graalsword]

Hi Gertrudes, I agree with what was said by others. And I used to think the same about marriage as being something senseless that I would never do, thinking that if the couple has a reall inner union marriage was not necessary. However lately my thought has changed about it. This quote by the Cs is one of the things that made me reconsider this subject:

October 24th 2009

Q: (L) Well, yes. We filed papers to create a legal entity, a legal church to be the shelter for the breathing and meditation program and for anybody who is going to be teaching it. I mean, it's a necessary legal protection.

A: And so much more than that! It is the 3D symbol for 4D connections being forged.

[...]

I think there was another thing they said about "what is united on earth is united on heaven" or something like that but I can't find the session.

The problem is that most people is married for the wrong reasons and with the wrong person. Driven mostly by programs, narcisist programs lying to themselves and believing lies about themselves and others. However when there is a real inner union, marriage could be the opportunity to express it on the physical realm, besides the legal advantages that others said above, and I guess it also must be funny!

I guess that if at some point in the future I meet someone with whom I consider such an inner connection to be true I would do a symbolic ceremony of the style Laura did with Ark, that is depicted in the "Exorcist In Love" article by T. French, just for fun.

The best for you Gertrudes.

 

[ALIEN1]

Indeed, all the best to both of you Gertrudes! And thank you for starting this thread, it got me to think!

 

[Voyageur]

Think you Gertrudes and your partners approach have been very thoughtful and rational which seems less and less these days. Your inner natures of compatibility seem foremost of mind and spirit, the stuff that no one sees. What is seen perhaps is the symbolic programmed perspective by many; the wrong reasons as was said, false love, love without true meaning, without understanding.

Remember growing up, divorce was not in my lexicon, no one did it, and at least that’s what we could see. Suddenly the neighbour’s family broke apart and didn’t understand as a child. When asking my parents why, they swept it under the rug. So on and on this went until now it is as common as marriage itself.

Unconscious marriage seems to create one heck of a lot of emotional feeding when they discover they are not who they thought each other were, and really don’t know themselves. They perhaps fell in love with the very idea of it and pretended to each other and those around them in covert ways false devotions.

All the comments above by others above carry thoughtful messages to you and it seems from your very work, your struggling with this question in life, but more so your understanding of the true intent of each other that the answer is clear. And if so, whatever you decide will be right for you both.

Best thoughts to you and yours – enjoy the season.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Unconscious marriage seems to create one heck of a lot of emotional feeding when they discover they are not who they thought each other were, and really don’t know themselves. They perhaps fell in love with the very idea of it and pretended to each other and those around them in covert ways false devotions.

This and unconsciously bringing children into the world and continuing the process of narcissistic wounding (like the bite of the vampire spreading the "infection"), etc. is what keeps the Matrix going. As Gurdjieff said, all evil comes from unconscious manifestations and actions (except for those who consciously choose evil).

So having marriage based on the principles of this forum and FOTCM IS a way of balancing things on this planet and giving examples of what marriage could be.

 

[pete02]

I think that's totally awesome for you guys Gertrudes. You have always spoken highly of your partner and the fact that both of you are starting to feel this way is great news. It sounds as if you two truly do have a soul marriage already so maybe it is time to give the universe something back by making the commitment.

I myself have always (and still do) feel the same way about marriage that you described earlier. From my experiences growing up the only two people that I know that are still together are my parents thankfully. Just about everyone else from my past is divorced and most of the time it was due to something stupid like alcohol and sex or one of those "we're just together for the kids" thing. And then there's also so many potential partners out there with some sort of ulterior motive that I just lost trust in the whole thing to top it off. I've always viewed marriage as just an excuse for some organization to make money off you and then down the road lawyers get even more when it doesn't work out but enough about that.

I'm very happy for you guys to be feeling this way. It gives me hope and helps me realize that there is another side to marriage. One I guess I just don't think is meant for me in this lifetime but it surely warms the heart to hear about it the way the two of you have found it. DCM bless you both!

 

[Gertrudes]

Thank you so much for your thoughtfull posts and well wishes, they mean a lot to me, and I was very touched

Agreeing to be there for each other no matter what is basically "giving all to one who asks" and that agreement naturally wants to be manifested in the "real world". It's just another way of expressing something that already is.

You know, this is for me the root of it. I've come to realize that getting married is, for me, an act of courage, where I'm finally accepting to really give all through this symbolic gesture. We're also acknowledging our growth, our deep friendship and bond, what that means to us, and making a statement about it to ourselves, and to the universe.

Now I am in a situation where my partner, who loves the idea and ceremony of marriage, is sometimes mentioning getting engaged and I feel my programming getting stronger.

I know what you mean Ben. I think that if my partner had wanted to get married I would have shut off, and probably become even more resistant (if that were possible). Which isn't to say that either of us can't get engaged and be very happy with our respective partners, but only how the ponerization of marriage has almost destroyed the possibility in many of us to see it differently from a senseless, lie embedded, piece of paper.

Thinking of it, perhaps the fact that both me and my partner have been on the same page and openly acknowledged our views on marriage created the space, thoughout the years, for our views to morph. It is very possible that if one of us would have wanted to get married, perhaps the energy used to process our views towards change, would have been used to further resist against change.

I don't know if you have read the Gnosis trilogy -- I read it last summer, and despite the fact that Mouravieff is frankly a bit of a male chauvinist, I found much of what he discussed about true romantic relationships to be inspiring, and your raising this topic reminded me of that.

Thanks for mentioning Shijing, I will include the trilogy on my to read list.

This and unconsciously bringing children into the world and continuing the process of narcissistic wounding (like the bite of the vampire spreading the "infection"), etc. is what keeps the Matrix going. As Gurdjieff said, all evil comes from unconscious manifestations and actions (except for those who consciously choose evil).

So true. I still cling to my childhood non wish of having children though ;) Whilst my position towards marriage has changed on a very internal level, rearding children there is something deep inside me that simply feels that she doesn't want to perpetuate her programs through her children. I feel totally unprepared, and can only see suffering coming out of it. Sure, who's prepared to have children before having them? In any case I can't speak for others, and speaking for myself, I do not feel I could do this. Maybe my views will change such as they did with marriage, who knows. In any case right now this is where I stand.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Gertrudes, think of it this way: you and your partner can be an inspiration of what marriage COULD be, but rarely is. As you see from this thread, I and many others are really happy for you guys. The few great marriages, like Laura and Ark, give the rest of us hope and inspiration. And you will be adding to this with your own example. :)

I know exactly what you mean about having children. I may not be responsible enough in many areas, and I'm always working on this, but at least when it comes to children, I just can't bring anymore into this world. There are so many children already in this world that we can care for and Work for their better future in whatever small ways we are able. Why does it have to be our own biological children? The children of everyone else are precious and worth our efforts.

And I agree with Shijing. The Gnosis trilogy was a real inspiration for me, as well, with regard to true romantic relationships, in addition to every other way. :)

 

[Palinurus]

Since the Gnosis trilogy was mentioned, I stumbled upon an interesting website about The Archetype of the Holy Wedding in Alchemy and in the Unconscious of Modern Man with a thesis or something about that, ready for reading. Maybe worthwhile...only skimmed through it - so caveat lector.

Here it is: _http://paulijungunusmundus.eu/hknw/holy_wedding_alchemy_modern_man_contents.htm FWIW.

 

[Brewer]

Congratulations!

However, I'm not keen on the institution of marriage as it stands today. Getting legally married means having it recognized by the state. It means that the government has yet another piece of your life to meddle with if it so desires and it probably will.

The other thing is that you may get all sorts of people giving you unwanted advice after taking such a step and depending on both families' situation you may become a lighting rod for their expectations. Being the only relationship 'over-achiever' in a family can make you the focus of unwanted attention, advice and outright demands. It gets really tedious!

If you take the plunge I'd make it a private affair between the two of you. Don't register it and don't listen to what other advise, unless you ask for it. Just enjoy it day by day.

Take care and good luck! :)

 

[TOTEM36]

Congratulations!

However, I'm not keen on the institution of marriage as it stands today. Getting legally married means having it recognized by the state. It means that the government has yet another piece of your life to meddle with if it so desires and it probably will.

The other thing is that you may get all sorts of people giving you unwanted advice after taking such a step and depending on both families' situation you may become a lighting rod for their expectations. Being the only relationship 'over-achiever' in a family can make you the focus of unwanted attention, advice and outright demands. It gets really tedious!

If you take the plunge I'd make it a private affair between the two of you. Don't register it and don't listen to what other advise, unless you ask for it. Just enjoy it day by day.

Take care and good luck! :)

Finally!!
im glad someone finally said it

marriage is a legal contact plain and simple that usually favours one side of the partnership ultimately
just live together while it is working (people grow apart - it happens)
keep the personal and the legal seperate from each other - how would that feel?

 

[Ollie]

Finally!!
im glad someone finally said it

marriage is a legal contact plain and simple that usually favours one side of the partnership ultimately
just live together while it is working (people grow apart - it happens)
keep the personal and the legal seperate from each other - how would that feel?

What is important is, yes to go through whatever ceremony you may decide upon and whatever vows you may wish to make to each other, get the legal piece of paper, and then - forget about it, and continue living together just as you have done so far, and are doing so now.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

So true. I still cling to my childhood non wish of having children though ;) Whilst my position towards marriage has changed on a very internal level, rearding children there is something deep inside me that simply feels that she doesn't want to perpetuate her programs through her children. I feel totally unprepared, and can only see suffering coming out of it. Sure, who's prepared to have children before having them? In any case I can't speak for others, and speaking for myself, I do not feel I could do this. Maybe my views will change such as they did with marriage, who knows. In any case right now this is where I stand.

Sounds like you are considering marriage for all the right reasons. I was someone who felt they would never get married, only because I didn't date much. So when I got into my mid 30s, I started to panic and think who is going to take care of me? As a result of this, I married the first and only person who was ever interested in me enough to ask. Big mistake, as I didn't love him and was basically marrying a roof over my head. I managed to stick it out for five years before I met my current husband.

Since then, the tables have turned, I'm the one putting the roof over both our heads, maybe that's karma coming back to me. We have been together since late 1996, but only married in 2004, and one of the main reasons for that was to give him my health insurance since he became self-employed after a corporate reduction in workforce. I guess we never felt the need for a piece of paper, but it does make some things easier to come by.

I also cling, er clung, now since it's too late to change my mind, to my childhood non-wish of having children. Perhaps since I didn't have a close relationship with my own parents, nor they with each other, and I also didn't wish to perpetuate any programs on my own offspring. I simply didn't learn to want to nurture another human being.

Now that I'm older and parent-less, and especially around the holidays which are very family oriented, I look around me and feel empty that my "dinner table" consists of just me and the Mister while just about everyone else I know has a houseful of their children and grandchildren. While I was younger, I was too self-absorbed to even think about changing diapers and wiping snotty noses. But now I see what "could have been" as I witness my friend's delight in their grandchildren and close relationships with their own dauthers and sons. All I have is a couple of aging cats.

Of course I know that just having offspring is no guarentee of a "happy family" outcome. Still I never, ever, thought I would second guess myself when it came to being a mother... :/

 

[Brewer]

What is important is, yes to go through whatever ceremony you may decide upon and whatever vows you may wish to make to each other, get the legal piece of paper, and then - forget about it, and continue living together just as you have done so far, and are doing so now.

But it's still a legal document which can cause headaches in the future. Be it spouse versus spouse or state versus couple or one spouse may set the state on the other. Laws change too, what is today's relatively cosy and secure institution could become tomorrow's Kafkaesque nightmare at the stroke of a pen. Anything can happen.

Another thing to consider. The following institutions like marriage and or procreation and shape.....

Religions: Increases their numbers, influence and control.

The Legal Profession: They don't exactly weep over marriage break ups, it's a gold mine for them. Follow the money, Google divorce lawyers in your state, they wouldn't exist in such numbers if there was no business for them. They only exist due to demand, a demand born of law, the prevailing culture and peoples desires/programs.

Business: They love marriage and kids. They love it when marriages break up too, means two households, two washing machines, two utility bills etc.

Mass Media: A constant feeding frenzy on human relationships. Marriage, divorce, affairs. Then there's the Oprahs, Dr Phils and other 'experts' telling you how it should it be.

The Government: Over the past decades the government has intruded further and further into human relationships. New departments are created, government gets bigger and exerts ever more control.

Now one can be aware of all these things but the programs are so pervasive it's difficult not to be affected in some way. Once the educational value wears off, it gets very tedious.

However, having said this, an official marriage can be a life saver. My American ex-father-in-law said that he was, thanks to being married, saved from being drafted into the Vietnam War. He said JFK exempted married men from the draft in the early '60s. In Nazi Germany, during the final roundup of Berlin Jews in 1943. Jewish men married to German 'Aryan' women were spared soley due to the courageous efforts of their wives. They protested outside the building their husbands were imprisoned and won their release some days later.

Gertrudes, you started this topic in order to network and obtain feedback, here's my two cents.

You're based in the UK which is part of the EU. I wouldn't get legally married there, laws may change. Instead, if its practical, go abroad to marry, an official marriage in another country may be only quasi official in the UK/EU. Perhaps one of those tiny principalities on the European mainland may be a suitable destination. I don't know as I've not done the research but whatever you do have fun! I was at a wedding last weekend, had a blast!

Take care and best wishes! :)

 

[Finduilas495]

Congratulations and my best wishes for you and your partner, Gertrudes

 

[Psalehesost]

Like some others, posts in this thread have me reconsidering my "stance" on marriage - with the idea of, through its symbolic significance, showing something to the universe - not that I'm sure marriage would ever become a relevant question in my life anyway, but growth of understanding is always nice.

Looked on in itself as I've seen it, apart from this new-seen significance, marriage to me has simply been a tradition (along with a legal framework) bundled together with a psychopathic religion and its far-reaching cultural influence, where people, due to this cultural programming, often seem to attach various imaginary significances to marriage - thinking, for example, in terms of "legitimate" or "illegitimate" children on the basis of presence or lack of marriage in a couple, or that marriage shows the presence or lack of commitment between a couple. Not commonly here, where culture is somewhat more secular, but in some very "Christian" countries, such as the US.

I also cling, er clung, now since it's too late to change my mind, to my childhood non-wish of having children. Perhaps since I didn't have a close relationship with my own parents, nor they with each other, and I also didn't wish to perpetuate any programs on my own offspring. I simply didn't learn to want to nurture another human being.

Now that I'm older and parent-less, and especially around the holidays which are very family oriented, I look around me and feel empty that my "dinner table" consists of just me and the Mister while just about everyone else I know has a houseful of their children and grandchildren. While I was younger, I was too self-absorbed to even think about changing diapers and wiping snotty noses. But now I see what "could have been" as I witness my friend's delight in their grandchildren and close relationships with their own dauthers and sons. All I have is a couple of aging cats.

Of course I know that just having offspring is no guarentee of a "happy family" outcome. Still I never, ever, thought I would second guess myself when it came to being a mother... :/

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.