Marriott hotel bombing, Islamabad

[Joe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/world/asia/26military.html?_r=2&em&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Pakistani and American Troops Exchange Fire

NY Times
Published: September 25, 2008

WASHINGTON — Pakistani and American ground troops exchanged fire along the border with Afghanistan on Thursday after the Pakistanis shot at two American helicopters, ratcheting up tensions as the United States increases its attacks against militants from Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who are being sheltered in Pakistan’s restive tribal areas.

The two American OH-58 Kiowa reconnaissance helicopters were not damaged and no casualties were reported on either side from the ground fire. But American and Pakistani officials agreed on little else about what happened in the fleeting mid-afternoon clash between the allied troops.

American and NATO officials said that the two helicopters were flying about one mile inside Afghan air space to protect an American and Afghan patrol on the ground when the aircraft were fired on by small-caliber arms fire from a Pakistani military checkpoint near Tanai district in Khost Province.

In response, the American ground troops shot short bursts of warning fire, which hit well shy of the rocky, hilltop checkpoint, and the Pakistanis fired back, said Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a spokesman for the Central Command. [...]

But a spokesman for the Pakistani army, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, said Pakistani forces fired warning shots at the American aircraft after they crossed into Pakistan’s territory in the area of Saidgai, in North Waziristan’s Ghulam Khan region. “On this, the helicopters returned fire and flew back,” General Abbas said.

 

[Al Today]

Knowledge is definitely power. Power over uncertainty & fear. All I can say is “that figures”…


[quote author=Wed Aug 1, 2007] Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama said on Wednesday the United States must be willing to strike al Qaeda targets inside Pakistan, [/quote]
_http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0132206420070801


[quote author=September 11,2008] When she wasn't getting coached by Charles Gibson, or refusing to answer his questions, Sarah Palin directly contradicted her own candidate by saying she would do whatever it takes to stop terrorists in Pakistan:

“We must do whatever it takes, and we must not blink, Charlie. in making the tough decisions of where we go, and even who we target.”
[/quote]
_http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patrick-barry/palin-contradicts-mccains_b_125819.html


Below may perhaps be a diversionary tool I guess to keep us all mixed up? I’m watching to see even if the elections are held here in the good ole USofA. Even so, Will McCain’s health carry though his term?

[quote author=Sep 4, 2008] John McCain not only disagrees, he's repeatedly criticized Obama's policy, accusing him of wanting to "bomb our ally." Indeed, McCain recently suggested to CNN's Larry King that he, as president, wouldn't even pursue Osama bin Laden if he slipped past the border because "Pakistan is a sovereign nation." [/quote]
_http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/politics/animal/main4415893.shtml


We will see what we will see. If the internet doesn’t get unplugged that is…
I still look upwards into the sky, every day.
I read somewhere that once you see one of those big rocks coming, you have about an half hour till impact.

 

[Rabelais]

Looking at the crater, it reminded me of another very similar one taken at the scene of Rafiq Hariri's assassination.

It also is eerily reminiscent of the Bali bombing crater, which was indicative of an explosive device (mini nuke?) buried beneath the street. Then there is the McVeigh "fertilizer bomb" in OKC which also left a surprisingly large and deep hole in the ground, considering that this is not the signature of an above ground explosion.

Thanks Percival and all, for the job of gathering all of this information into one thread.

 

[Alana]

But a spokesman for the Pakistani army, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, said Pakistani forces fired warning shots at the American aircraft after they crossed into Pakistan’s territory in the area of Saidgai, in North Waziristan’s Ghulam Khan region. “On this, the helicopters returned fire and flew back,” General Abbas said.

Very Neocon like: "You are either with us or against us", and if there's any indication of the latter, "it's war upon your people". Soon, it seems, they will forget all about the ghosts of Taliban and Al-qaeda and the US army will start shooting on Pakistani troops, because, well, they "fired first"!

Also, I wonder if the US Blackops people were not aided by unhappy elements of Pakistani intelligence who would like to keep things the way they were with Musharraf?

As it was said here:

The same "act" being re-played, as it has been for centuries: psychopathic individuals, to meet their goals, find those among a nation with matching personality or characteristics, and together they destroy a nation.

 

[Niall]

Great detective work Perceval! How does one go about downloading the 'dot-connecting program'?!

Oh wait, I know the answer: through hard work and paying attention to the signs.

From the BBC today, the ISI has a new boss. One more amenable to the CIA perhaps?

_http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7643728.stm

The military in Pakistan has appointed a new head of the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency.

Lt Gen Ahmed Shujaa Pasha is a former head of military operations who launched recent offensives against militants near the Afghan border.

He takes over amid mounting US pressure on Pakistan to do more to combat the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

Gen Pasha's appointment is among several changes announced as part of a shake-up in the army's top command.

The BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad says the reshuffle will be closely scrutinised by the United States and Afghanistan, which have questioned the ISI's reliability in fighting the "war on terror".

Pakistani observers say the move appears to be an effort by army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani - who was himself ISI chief until a year ago - to consolidate his control over the military.


Our correspondent says Gen Pasha has been described as a modern professional soldier.

As head of military operations, he was in charge of offensives which troops began last year against pro-Taleban militants in Swat, Waziristan and other areas of north-west Pakistan.

Gen Pasha replaces Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, a loyalist of former President Pervez Musharraf who was appointed less than a year ago.

Observers say it is rare for an ISI chief to spend so short a time in his post.

"These were the changes due over a period of time. This is how the system works in the army," chief military spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas told the AFP news agency.

Security analyst and former general Talat Masood told AFP that Gen Kayani had now "completed a team of his choice".

"He will be able to now lead the army with greater confidence."

Gen Kayani has also changed four of nine corps commanders and named a new chief of the general staff.


The ISI has helped kill or capture a number of senior al-Qaeda figures since 2001.

But it has long been accused of collaborating with militants, despite government assurances the agency has been reformed.

The ISI had a key role in funding the Afghan mujahideen and critics say some of its agents still play a double game, viewing certain militant groups as assets to use in Afghanistan and in the dispute with India over Kashmir.

Earlier this year, Pakistan said its intelligence agents had been accused by the US of alerting al-Qaeda-linked militants before the US launched missile attacks against them.

The ISI was also accused of involvement in the bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul in July. Islamabad denied the allegation.

Gen Pasha's appointment also comes after a major stand-off between the Pakistani government and the army chief, who resisted attempts to put the ISI under civilian control.

But whether his reshuffle will lead to policy changes or reform in the ISI remains to be seen, our correspondent says.

Pakistan's powerful military has ruled the country for about half of its 61 years of independence.

Gen Kayani has indicated he wants to keep the military out of politics but he has shown a tough streak, strongly condemning recent US cross-border raids into north-west Pakistan.

There goes 'civilianising' the ISI then...

 

[adam7117]

Kudos to Perceval for getting this thread started. It hasn't been long but the general public seems to have moved on already. I reckon the chain of events as discussed here gives us a glimpse of the man behind the curtain.

There is an interesting timeline to the Australian news reports around that time. Let me use ABC News examples here.

It all starts with cricket

Ponting to be briefed on tour security

Australian cricket captain Ricky Ponting will meet Foreign Minister Stephen Smith today to discuss security for the upcoming four-Test tour of India.

A security review was conducted for the upcoming cricket tour. This was after the New Delhi blast. Still - India was in, Pakistan was out. Naturally, Pakistanis felt left out.

Shortly afterward, an interesting event takes place - the Pakistani President addressed the new Parliament for the first time. He spoke in rather peculiar terms...

Pakistan's leader pledges to eliminate terrorism

"I ask of the Government that it should be firm in its resolve to not allow the use of its soil for carrying out terrorist activities against any foreign country."

"We will not tolerate the violation of our sovereignty and territorial integrity by any power in the name of combating terrorism."

Next day, the hotel was bombed.

Massive blast rocks hotel in Pakistan's capital

The attack comes just hours after Pakistan's newly installed President, Asif Ali Zardari, said he would not allow Pakistan's territory to be violated by terrorists or foreign powers fighting them.

In his first speech to MPs since he replaced Pervez Musharraf in August, he vowed instead to "root out terrorism and extremism wherever and whenever they may rear their ugly heads".

After the attack, Pakistan's new President gets on TV and speaks to the whole nation. The plot thickened when the Prime Minister and others joined the choir a bit later.

Pakistan reels, Zardari defiant, after Islamabad carnage

"Terrorism is a cancer in Pakistan, we are determined, God willing, we will rid the country of this cancer. We will not be deterred by these cowards. Pakistanis are brave and fearless people. They are not afraid of death."

(...)

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani joined the President in condemning the massive attack, and both leaders appealed to the public for calm. Pakistani Interior Minister Rehman Malik said the Government had been warned that such an attack was imminent. "Two days back we had a threat that the Parliament is under threat so we had taken all the security measures," he said.

They heard back...

"(...) This is a reminder of the threat we all face (...)"

The politicians may have got away this time. So who was in the hotel?

Change of plans 'saved' Pakistan leaders from blast

The hotel was instead hosting its regular meal for the breaking of the Ramadan fast at the time of the explosion.

So the "terrorists" ended up blowing up some Muslims? That's interesting (apart from being very tragic, of course). What is also interesting is the "fact" that the driver first self-destructs and then the bomb goes off. It goes off, right?

Weeell, maybe.

What bothers me at this point is how the video reports align with all that. A camera footage is suddenly released to the public - and then reported by ABC News as follows - click to view video.

We never get to see the explosion. Instead we "understand" that the camera was destroyed in the blast. Hmmm... I actually have a problem with the raw footage (footage here)

In the video we see time slowing down and speeding up, the camera starts having some sort of reaction before the blast, everyone walks away at the moment the explosion is supposed to happen...

And the camera doesn't capture even a frame of the truck being pulled apart by a ball of fire?

 

[Joe]

So the "terrorists" ended up blowing up some Muslims? That's interesting (apart from being very tragic, of course). What is also interesting is the "fact" that the driver first self-destructs and then the bomb goes off. It goes off, right?

Weeell, maybe.

What bothers me at this point is how the video reports align with all that. A camera footage is suddenly released to the public - and then reported by ABC News as follows - click to view video.

We never get to see the explosion. Instead we "understand" that the camera was destroyed in the blast. Hmmm... I actually have a problem with the raw footage (footage here)

In the video we see time slowing down and speeding up, the camera starts having some sort of reaction before the blast, everyone walks away at the moment the explosion is supposed to happen...

And the camera doesn't capture even a frame of the truck being pulled apart by a ball of fire?

What is interesting is that the men who initially run away from and then go back to the truck in the video do not seem to notice anyone in the cab. The truck is there for several minutes before any fire yet no one attempts to talk to the driver. Was there a driver? As for Muslim terrorists killing Muslims - that has been the main result of these particular terrorists campaign so far.

 

[Joe]

Great detective work Perceval! How does one go about downloading the 'dot-connecting program'?!

Oh wait, I know the answer: through hard work and paying attention to the signs.

Dot connecting is pretty easy actually. You just need to actively assume that the vast majority of events that take place on the global political stage are a deception. That is to say, you need to flip 180 degrees the standard position off assuming that what you are told is true until it is proven false. You need to automatically assume it is a deception or at best a half truth, and then look for evidence to either prove or disprove that position. You can, more or less safely, do this. We should of course remain as open minded as possible and not go off 'half cocked'. It is very useful to be well enough informed about real history rather than the stuff in text books. Armed with this we begin to see a pattern, a methodology that is used over and over again and we get an insight into the minds of the people who play games of global chess.

 

[Windmill knight]

Dot connecting is pretty easy actually. You just need to actively assume that the vast majority of events that take place on the global political stage are a deception. That is to say, you need to flip 180 degrees the standard position off assuming that what you are told is true until it is proven false. You need to automatically assume it is a deception or at best a half truth, and then look for evidence to either prove or disprove that position. You can, more or less safely, do this. We should of course remain as open minded as possible and not go off 'half cocked'. It is very useful to be well enough informed about real history rather than the stuff in text books. Armed with this we begin to see a pattern, a methodology that is used over and over again and we get an insight into the minds of the people who play games of global chess.

I think that those of us who grew up in countries under blatant and open oppression and/or corruption find it easier to assume that the rule is that those in power lie, cheat, steal and murder; and the exception is when they work for the good of the people.

The problem with most people in the US or Western Europe is that they assume that their governments are 'good' because they don't see bombs falling on their street on a daily basis, nor people starving on the sidewalks (well, sometimes they do see the latter, but they're usually considered exceptions). They forget that being superpowers, their countries export these horrors to others to a great extent, and have the ability to keep most of the local horrors under covers, thanks to the tremendous power of the media and entertainment.

So start assuming that 'they' are only interested in money and power, and don't believe otherwise until they prove it. Assume that everything spoken or represented through the media is a show to keep us asleep, half-truths at best, but sometimes with full lies too. Pay attention to the uncomfortable details that go underreported and which do not fit with official explanations and start pulling the thread. And like Percival says, learn history! Political crimes and conspiracies happen again and again and it is naive to think that we have left behind the Caligulas and Hitlers. The Romans and the Germans also thought of themselves as the peak of civilization...

 

[Joe]

The problem with most people in the US or Western Europe is that they assume that their governments are 'good' because they don't see bombs falling on their street on a daily basis, nor people starving on the sidewalks (well, sometimes they do see the latter, but they're usually considered exceptions). They forget that being superpowers, their countries export these horrors to others to a great extent, and have the ability to keep most of the local horrors under covers, thanks to the tremendous power of the media and entertainment

Indeed. Take the US for example. Many Americans have long believed that their standard of living was the "best in the world" because of their form of government, way of life, work ethic, blah blah blah. It is true that during most of the last century most American citizens enjoyed technological perks that other nations did not, and times were probably pretty good in the US in general in the 40s, 50's 60's, 70's, 80's (leaving aside the poor level of education and the increasingly poisonous food supply).

The big blind spot however is that the relative wealth of US citizens was indeed the result of their way of life, or rather the policies of their government, but it had little to do with an enterprising spirit and capitalism, and everything to do with the fact that America waged unilateral wars and otherwise economically colonised many nations in order to steal or misappropriate their wealth. The masses of cheap raw materials that this policy generated allowed the American economy to thrive, jobs for everyone etc. The US was essentially benefiting from somewhere between 50 and 100% reduction in the price of all of its raw materials, and dozens of other countries around the world were impoverished as a direct result. This is of course a simplified explanation but true in essence nonetheless.

So if Americans enjoyed much wealth and prosperity during the last century, it was only because millions upon millions of people around the world were being forced to live in poverty to make it so.