Medical Hoaxes

[NORDIC HEALER]

There's also evidence that Leary was a CIA counter-intelligence agent pushing the psychedelic psy-ops agenda, so it doesn't surprise me he tried to associate drug twaddle with Gurdjieff's work. I found this interesting link at the Gurdjieff International Review about a 'gift' from Tim Leary.

I checked this link out and found under the section, "Mr. Nyland and the Piano", the story about Timothy Leary offering a gift of a Steinway Concert Grand piano to Mr Nyland. Instead of just accepting the gift however, Nyland insisted that someone check out the piano first, against the advice of others who thought he should just graciously accept such a wonderful gift.

The short version of the story however is that they made the drive to Millbrook New York where Ram Dass and Timothy Leary had formed the Castalia Foundation with the headquarters in a mansion on a 2,500 acre estate.

"There on the back porch (exposed to the cold and elements) was a desemboweled piano. The innards, the strings and the frame were leaning drunkenly against a wall on which clothes hangers, kitchen utensils, tools, screwdrivers, and the like were hung. Our (house tour) guide picked up a tire wrench and ran it up and down the length of the strings. "we liberated the piano," she said blissfully. "where is the rest of the piano, the keyboard, the case, the action?" I asked stupidly. She did not answer but languidly ran a mop handle along the strings to demonstrate that I was being boringly conventional and obviously I didn't know the first thing about a piano's potential. Other people appeared and joined in this concert-from-hell. We slipped away unnoticed.

Mr Nyland did not seem surprised when we told him about the piano nor did he try and justify having us look into the mouth of a gift horse."

Obviously the whole Leary mansion was filled with people very high on LDS.

All I can say is that this is very clear and Disturbing Evidence of how destructive drugs such as LSD can have on the Psyche. The people they saw that day were obviously walking around in a daze, "Dissociated" from all reality, commiting Destructive acts on things.

I was very shocked and sad to realize they literally KILLED what no doubt was a Very Fine, piano at one time, a Steinway Concert Grand.

DISGUSTING!

And people like this we are supposed to entrust our minds, and Spiritual Growth to because they have discovered a brilliant short cut to "Enlightenment"???

The BEAUTIFUL VOICE of this Glorious piano was silenced forever at the VIOLENT hands of so called Enlightened People who KNEW EVERYTHING because the drug LSD opened the portals to ALL KNOWLEDGE!

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

 

[ark]

I believe Gurdjieff brought the Enneagram to the West

And why do you think that there is anything of value in the Enneagram? Any evidence for it except of personal opinions?

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I heard of a 4 who spent years trying to figure out why he had problems with realtionships, and when he found out he was a 4, he cracked it.

How does one find out the number though? Wouldn't he have to know his mechanical aspects to know what number, if any, he fits with? Then what's the use of the numbers?

I am a 5, an analyst, so I am into the enneagram.

I don't see the logical connection. I'm an analyst, I analyze things all the time, like what you just wrote. But I'm not into the anneagram.

I know people who don't want to know, not a 5 obviously.

Obviously? Not true, plenty of people spend their entire lives analyzing stuff, it doesn't mean they will be interested to analyze the enneagram. Doesn't mean they are not analysts or don't like knowledge. They are just picky. It's extremely rare that a person will analyze everything, because beliefs, sacred cows, many i's, various conflicting interests, and many other things get in the way of this. There are those who analyze almost nothing. You can assign numbers to them if you want, but what's the use? Might as well just say "they generally don't analyze most things", why does it need a number?

My last wife tried to make me feel bad for being so into analysis, when I found out I was a 5 I could say--well I am an analyst!

What about those who are "so into analysis" for some things, but others? Then they are only half of a "5", 2.5 perhaps.

My basic fear is 'Of Being Useless, Incompetent, Incapable' Strangely enough I always have this word that is embedded in my psyche--being hopeless, that I though my dad gave me. h may have, but that would just be reflecting my enneagram

Or he really did, and you're projecting onto the enneagram what your dad gave you? Or maybe it's neither? What made you give up trying to figure out why you are the way you are? Just because you happen to match some points on an enneagram, does it mean that there is no explanation or reason for your "personality", that the entire reason is contained in "because the enneagram says so"?

If I said, those who are sad are also usually angry. And you find yourself to be both, sad and angry. Are you going to say "I must be sad and angry because ScioAgapeOmnis said that they usually come together" and not actually ask the question - just why are you sad and angry anyway? What do I have to do with who you are? Even if I notice a trend that tends to be correct, so what? It doesn't explain WHY those who are sad also tend to be angry, it's just noticing a pattern that seems to happen together, it's not explaining why, and it has no way of knowing YOUR unique circumstances that have caused you to adapt this pattern yourself. This doesn't look like very good analysis if you just leave it at "it's in the enneagram".

My main trap is addiction to Knowledge. So easy to avoid if you know it. You can see that in action with my site.

What is addiction to Knowledge? Can you explain why this is a trap and why this should be avoided? Because on this forum we understand that Knowledge is to be sought, not avoided.

 

[Beau]

Any evidence for it except of personal opinions?

John23, did you miss this part of Ark's question? All you gave in response were opinions.

 

[Art]

John23 refers the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School
Some extracts of the article whose neutrality is courrently disputed:

The Arica School (also known as the Arica Institute, which is its incorporated educational organization, or simply as Arica) is a human potential movement group founded in 1968 by Bolivian-born philosopher Oscar Ichazo (born in 1931).
The school is named after the city of Arica, Chile, where Ichazo once lived and where he led an intensive months-long training in 1970 and 1971 before settling in the United States where the Arica Institute (incorporated in 1971) has since been headquartered.
(…)

The Arica School believes that most of the Enneagram authors largely misunderstand Ichazo's ideas and only focus them on "personality types" which can be used in various ways to make decisions regarding one's life and relationships. Some of these Enneagram authors believe that Ichazo has done little to popularize his understanding of the Enneagram to an audience outside of the Arica School.

(…)

The Enneagram / Enneagon, however, is just one component of the Arica system. The Arica School can be considered, as Ramparts magazine put it in 1973 in a positive article, as "a body of techniques for cosmic consciousness-raising and an ideology to relate to the world in an awakened way." In creating Arica's system and methodology it is sometimes believed that Ichazo took inspiration from the teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff on consciousness. Ichazo, however, has adamantly denied this.

(…)

The Arica School is a School of Knowledge that claims to present a contemporary method for the clarification of the human process into states of enlightenment and true liberation. According to Ichazo’s Protoanalytical Theory, when the mind is stabilized through perspective, understanding and self-observation, meditations can be employed to transcend everyday experiences into the Higher States of Mind where enlightenment and real freedom can, according to Aricans, be attained.

Arica is a Human Potential Movement and, as such, it portrays all the elements that have been object of long and deep study here. It engulfs all the aspects on a New Age frame of mind washing programming, from its headquartering into the USA early 70’s, to the all-problem-solving solution via enlightment achieved by meditation.

Note that, contrary to what john23 sais, Ichazo him self "adamantly denies" Gurdjieff influence.

The Arica School believes that it offers a clearly defined map of the human psyche as a guide for discovering the basis of a person’s ego process enabling individuals to transcend this process into the Higher State of Consciousness that is found in and available to every person. This state of being is seen as our True Essential Self, experienced as an internal state of great happiness, light and liberation.

A map of the human psyche that will enable trascendence towards a Higher stae of Consciousness –the true esential self “experienced as an internal state of great happiness, light and liberation". This “experience" (Malinowski) belongs to the sort of experiences that would ultimatelly disolve the harmonic interactions of the centers, and the delimitations of their activities, resproducing them, not fusing them. This Arica stuff is most defientelly a sleeping pill that brigns happiness, light and liberation to those charging for this service, and to hell with the real worl. The individual would had to swallow the “ego processes" (enagram speech ilustrated by john23 above) as evidence of the efectiveness of this diet.

The article john23 quotes, contradicts john23.

On the discussion page of the article, cetain Ontologicos writes:

09:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a number of problems with this article.
Much of it was originally written in a manner that displays a distinctly biased Point Of View (POV) in favour of Ichazo and the Arica School and against those who have used Ichazo's ideas in ways that he didn't intend.
It would seem that the original article was written by a member of the Arica School. There's nothing wrong with this, in principle, but the lack of neutrality is quite glaring at times.
I have attempted to rewrite some of the article to retain the original claims and assertions but also make the criticisms of others more appropriate for an encyclopedia article.
The article needs considerable more development to be an adequate presentation of Ichazo's teachings. Ichazo's theories deserve a proper treatment without rehashing all the conflicts with the Fourth Way tradition, Claudio Naranjo, Helen Palmer et al.
So I would ask that all further edits strive to follow the policies and guidelines on neutrality and POV etc.

Clearly Ontologicos wants his school of faith to be more well "known", disengaging it from the influences the actual article quotes. Perhaps Ontologicos is not the only one who would like to see this happening. It is curious the neutrality of the article is discussed in this manner (as to bias it by “cleaning" it from certain statements), when the body of the article shows a correct, although brief, general representation of Arica’s philosophy.

It ain’t worthy to mention only Ontologicos is arguing on the discussion page.

John 1:23.- John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'

 

[anart]

Note that, contrary to what john23 sais, Ichazo him self "adamantly denies" Gurdjieff influence.

Well, it does make perfect sense for john23 to insinuate a Gurdjieff connection since he's trying so hard to insinuate himself into this forum (which works from a platform of the teachings of Gurdjieff) and thus attract followers to his web site and, possibly, this whole Arica 'movement'. Thanks for the input, Art.

And, to Beau's point - clearly john23's explanation is personal opinion - that does not exclude the existence of 'data' to back up what he says, it simply indicates that he has none to present, or chooses to not present it. Perhaps he considers his words to be 'data' since he utters them?

 

[Azur]

clearly john23's explanation is personal opinion - that does not exclude the existence of 'data' to back up what he says, it simply indicates that he has none to present, or chooses to not present it. Perhaps he considers his words to be 'data' since he utters them?

A beautiful example of economy of words that drives to the center of the issue.

John, it would be a good thing to contemplate the above quoted here, and go deep to see what you can see.

A "timely" retort is not required for others here, there is no pressure to respond.

What is valued in a network is self-understanding, and sharing what you see, honestly. The other side of the network is understanding what others see (and why that is) and present it to you, so that you may evaluate what you MAY not be seeing. If the network needs a "correction", provide it, it is most welcomed.

It can be the case that the network's "slings and arrows" might be off base, but an objective network such as this will test you regardless, for your own questing, and for your benefit (and only YOU may realize the benefit in it's totality).

The process is always undertaken in the hopes that if you can see clearly, you can help others see clearly, in an outwards and objective manner, and not in a closing, self-reinforcing way.


I'm glad you are making an effort (here and other where), anybody in movement is worthy of what they can find.

Cheers.

 

[vinny]

A trap for a 5 only. An addiction to knowledge is OK in itself but not at the expense of time with your family, for example. It can break up relationships.

so would you say that if you had a particular knowledge that would break up your relationship, then you would rather stay blissfully ignorant?!
if a relationship is such that it obstructs the development of knowledge, then which is it that is out of place? the knowledge? or the relationship?

how can real knowledge do anything but strengthen?

added:

"John, it would be a good thing to contemplate the above quoted here, and go deep to see what you can see. "

OK. I can just see someone avoiding knowledge because it didn't come from his sources. Read the 10 books on the enneagram, and get back to me, or don't rather.

I have given you plenty of knowledge which you and others go out of your way to throw back in my face with comments such as the above, beloved by pharma people (hardly an example seeking knowledge).

How about giving me some knowledge---what is the difference between emotions and feelings?

I think I will use your own words, it might be useful for you to see how you appear externally:

"I can just see someone avoiding knowledge because it didn't come from his sources. Read the 10 books written by the owners of this site, and get back to me, or don't rather."

 

[Niall]

I have given you plenty of knowledge which you and others go out of your way to throw back in my face with comments such as the above, beloved by pharma people (hardly an example seeking knowledge).

Where? Here's an exercise for you: go back over the thread and report back exactly where you 'have given [us] plenty of knowledge'...

 

[Ryan]

OK. I can just see someone avoiding knowledge because it didn't come from his sources.

Funny - I can see the same thing in you.

"Well, it does make perfect sense for john23 to insinuate a Gurdjieff connection since he's trying so hard to insinuate himself into this forum (which works from a platform of the teachings of Gurdjieff) and thus attract followers to his web site and, possibly, this whole Arica 'movement'. "

Don't flatter yourself. I only mention Arica as one of my teachers, John Lilly, went down there, took their knowledge, and wrote about it in his book, The Centre of the Cyclone, much to their annoyance.

Being a follower of Gurdjieff yourself you would naturally think I was one, or wanted some of my own, so you feel I am a threat. I am flattered you think I am capable of attracting followers, but I don't like followers as they just sit on your coat tails, as Don Croft said.

Wow, Don Croft actually exists? I've never seen any photos of him, just a bunch of fairytales on disinfo websites.

My take on groups and followers is put succintly by Krishnamurti:

"He (Krishnamurti) said he did not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, because such an organization becomes a weakness, a bondage, and cripples the individual. He said that he did not want any followers or disciples, because the moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. He said that no one holds the key to Truth, that key is your own self, and in the purification and incorruptibility of that self alone."---Asit Chandmal (one Thousand Suns)

I don't understand. On the Krishnamurti Foundation website, it states the following:

Krishnamurti was concerned with all humanity and stated repeatedly that he held no nationality or belief and belonged to no particular group or culture. In the latter part of his life, he travelled mainly between the schools he had founded in India, Britain and the United States, schools that educate for the total understanding of man and the art of living.

So Krishnamurti did not believe in groups or organizations of a spiritual kind, yet started his own? In at least 3 countries? You should find a teacher to quote who is less hypocritical. Either that, or you are completely misrepresenting and twisting his words. Which is it?

Better one seeker after truth to help you, than a million followers.

As long as you set the pace, eh?

How about giving me some knowledge---what is the difference between emotions and feelings?

"What is Semantics?"

 

[Guest]

"Wow, Don Croft actually exists? I've never seen any photos of him, just a bunch of fairytales on disinfo websites."

I knew it. A disinfo agent, and a moderator.

Photo of Croft _http://www.ethericwarriors.com/main/index.php?page=patrolarticle&id=10

 

[mudrabbit]

From Merriam Webster Online

Data
Pronunciation: 'dA-t&, 'da- also 'dä-
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Latin, plural of datum
1 : factual information (as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation <the data is plentiful and easily available -- H. A. Gleason, Jr.> <comprehensive data on economic growth have been published -- N. H. Jacoby>
2 : information output by a sensing device or organ that includes both useful and irrelevant or redundant information and must be processed to be meaningful
3 : information in numerical form that can be digitally transmitted or processed

Opinion
Pronunciation: &-'pin-y&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

 

[anart]

"Wow, Don Croft actually exists? I've never seen any photos of him, just a bunch of fairytales on disinfo websites."

I knew it. A disinfo agent, and a moderator.

 

[Renaissance]

I knew it. A disinfo agent, and a moderator.

Isn't incredibly odd that a 'random' spammer coincidently has a number of interests unique to this forum and yet only initially tried to participate via spam?

 

[anart]

Well, it's probably simply a case of someone who's cup is very full and who truly cannot tolerate being challenged on his belief-based pronouncements. He likely wanders the internet leaving his calling card everywhere he goes where similar subjects are discussed - and he's likely never encountered a group of people that doesn't just swallow his version of reality hook line and sinker - much less that asks him for substantiating data - I think it frustrated him immensly because his subjective house of cards was being shaken just a bit and he seemed so highly identified with what he considered to be his enormous wealth of 'knowledge' - subjective as it is.