Monks lowering crime, 'Power of Attraction'

[nicklebleu]

3D resident ... Have thought about your post for quite a while ...

I don't think that the main problem here is that is seems too hard to think that a group of monks may lower the crime rate ... I think the problem is more along the lines mentioned by Peam: what's the point, why would anyone want to influence anyone else? The point is personal development, not trying to influence someone else. In my opinion this would violate free will of those committing the crimes. Please correct me if I am wrong ...

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Nickelbleu, I completely agree with you. It would be a violation of free will. Perhaps I did miss the main point, however I do get the impression that there is an ideology with some people on these forums that no matter what we all think in this world, nothing will change at a fundamental level in space-time which translates into observable, macroscopic effects. I totally understand where this thinking comes from and why people adhere to it. However if the whole "you create your own reality" idea (from now on, YCYOR) is interpreted in the right way, it is possible to accept it. (I don't yet know what that "right way" is yet, by the way.)

The YCYOR is a mantra that we hear all too often from the "Newagers" and this has unfortunately poisoned a fundamental truth of the universe that we DO actually create our own reality at a certain level, at every moment. Science has proven overwhelmingly that this is the case. I guess this "poisoning" of an idea is to be expected since all fundamental truths on our planet have a habit of getting corrupted, twisted and distorted to cause confusion and chaos. So the Newagers pretend that if we all pray that the strife in the Middle East goes away, it will all go away like magic. But they do this without first acknowledging the problems that currently exist which have brought about such strife in the first place. So in essence they are trying a "quick fix" without addressing the underlying causes.

Having said all that, science has shown that at a certain level, if enough people do focus their intention upon a highly specific outcome, that change often does occur, no matter where in space, or at what time. So it's possible to influence certain outcomes across time and space, no matter how distant the time (past or future) and how distant the place. So studies of Monks who prayed and supposedly reduced the crime rate could in theory have been conducted ANYWHERE on the planet and the same result would have arisen. Other studies have shown that the effect does not diminish with distance. The exact mechanism behind the crime rate reduction cannot be explained until one knows what it was that the Monks were praying for. But one could hypothesise that they prayed for something that triggered the "criminally minded" people to be less aggressive over a particular period. At a quantum level, the brains of said people could be altered appropriately.

But the issue of the "right" interpretation is made quite complicated by all of this. Would it not be possible to influence the minds of those people responsible for the violence in the Middle East? Science says it's possible. Experiments have shown it's possible. One thing mentioned in "The Intention Experiment", however, is that the effect size of prayer or group intention is much greater if the recipient is WILLING to receive such intent. Perhaps this is why many prayer sessions fail to work. I have forgotten the exact details now, but I believe the book also discusses reasons why some of the prayer experiments actually caused WORSE outcomes in those people who did not know about the experiment. A whole range of ethical issues arise from doing this of course, not to mention an interesting look at where STS can lead.

I guess more research (and reading) needs to be done to arrive at a "balanced" interpretation of YCYOR.

 

[anart]

Nickelbleu, I completely agree with you. It would be a violation of free will. Perhaps I did miss the main point,

Yes, you did.  Nicklebleu's take is spot on.

however I do get the impression that there is an ideology with some people on these forums that no matter what we all think in this world, nothing will change at a fundamental level in space-time which translates into observable, macroscopic effects.

Which 'people' would you be speaking of?  Which 'ideology'?

Have you read the Wave series?  Did you at  least read the page referenced in this thread?  If you had, (and if you grasped it) you would understand the context of this conversation.

This is also discussed at length in Secret History. 

The YCYOR is a mantra that we hear all too often from the "Newagers" and this has unfortunately poisoned a fundamental truth of the universe that we DO actually create our own reality at a certain level, at every moment.

At what level? The point is that we must understand and master this level before moving on - not get caught dreaming about other levels where what we think IS reality.  Simple and karmic understandings, 3D resident - NOT dreaming one is a magician.  Please at least fully read the page of the Wave referenced in this thread as a start.  And if you have read the entire Wave series, perhaps it's time for a re-read ?  For you to have skipped over the Free Will aspect and jumped right into 'we DO create our reality on a certain level' indicates that you are considering only what you want to consider (what is pleasant and 'attractive') and not the entire objective picture  - that is wishful thinking and it WILL get you every time.

 

[Renaissance]

Nickelbleu, I completely agree with you. It would be a violation of free will. Perhaps I did miss the main point,

I strikes me odd that you acknowledge the main point of it being a violation of free will, and then you go to support the violation of free will through YCYOR. It seems you do not actually 'completely agree'.

 

[highmystica]

I wonder what what would happen if 200 conscious Tibetan monks engaged in the work and meditating to remove the STS thoughts and tendencies in themselves, while located in the same temple would have on the surrounding area. Not intending or desiring to effect the free-wills of others, just working on themselves and their understanding and connection with reality. Granted, they would have an influence on the surrounding people through simple daily life, they might influence people toward "right thought" rather than positive thinking (which is simply wishfull thinking), "right thought" however could be described as real thought, thought that is more removed from STS patterns and would get all those people really thinking for themselves. Why were the Cathars so dangerous, why is China still behaving ruthlessly to the Tibetans? I think there might be a reason that the PTB think that they are dangerous - okay I guess history proves that ...

Actually I sometimes wonder if the myths of Shambala, might not describe some sort of 4D STO bleedthrough, it would certainly explain why those of an STS pattern couldn't even see it - they weren't in frequency. I'll admit it, I'm a little sleepy and my mind is taking odd turns.

As far as the YCYOR thing I think it is full of half-truths. We are technically all still STS, so we can't ignore the nature of our reality. Yes, our thoughts and actions do have an impact on reality, but in comparison to the madness that ensnares us ... We can only do so in a limited effect, take one individual praying - how much more often is he filled with STS thoughts instead? And are his prayers based in true compassion free of desire, want, anticipation or fear? The problem is that the phrase you create your own reality is that is describes a "personal" reality - the closest thing I have to that is my mind and it isn't always very real. One could better say we can influence our connection to reality ... and only influence - and not very well. We can choose to work on ourselves or go back to sleep. We can try to help people - and only "try" until we are masters (whatever that really means). We can try to live healthier spiritual, mentally, physically, and emotionally. But, it all takes effort and work. The good thing that comes from the standard YCYOR camps is that sometimes people feel empowered enough in their beings to address these things and use it as a stepping stone to move on to something better ... generally though most use it as a sedative ... Well, that is my most current thoughts on YCYOR.

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Nickelbleu, I completely agree with you. It would be a violation of free will. Perhaps I did miss the main point,

Yes, you did. Nicklebleu's take is spot on.

however I do get the impression that there is an ideology with some people on these forums that no matter what we all think in this world, nothing will change at a fundamental level in space-time which translates into observable, macroscopic effects.

Which 'people' would you be speaking of? Which 'ideology'?

Do you actually want me to name names here? As for which ideology -- that's explained in the same sentence.

Have you read the Wave series? Did you at least read the page referenced in this thread? If you had, (and if you grasped it) you would understand the context of this conversation.

This is also discussed at length in Secret History.

Yes I've read the Wave series, although admittedly it was a couple of years ago now. Having said that, I frequently re-read certain parts of it. Sorry, I did not read the referenced page. I'm about to do that now. (I'm assuming you mean the link to an extract from The Wave?) When I came across this forum I was quite busy at the time and skimmed through it. There are so many interesting threads which appear daily that to read all in great detail can be difficult at times.

The YCYOR is a mantra that we hear all too often from the "Newagers" and this has unfortunately poisoned a fundamental truth of the universe that we DO actually create our own reality at a certain level, at every moment.

At what level? The point is that we must understand and master this level before moving on - not get caught dreaming about other levels where what we think IS reality. Simple and karmic understandings, 3D resident - NOT dreaming one is a magician. Please at least fully read the page of the Wave referenced in this thread as a start. And if you have read the entire Wave series, perhaps it's time for a re-read ? For you to have skipped over the Free Will aspect and jumped right into 'we DO create our reality on a certain level' indicates that you are considering only what you want to consider (what is pleasant and 'attractive') and not the entire objective picture - that is wishful thinking and it WILL get you every time.

We change our reality at the quantum level, at every moment. I mentioned this in my post. But it is important to grasp that, unlike mainstream science, quantum effects actually translate into observable effects in the macroscopic world. I actually see the understanding of this scientific fact all part of understanding and mastering this level of existence. It IS part of this level, therefore I see no use in pretending it isn't. I am hoping that the Wave page I am about to read can explain to me why accepting the fact that mind affects reality, EVEN in 3D, is somehow discordant with objectivity and what IS.

I don't dream I am a magician. I am merely acknowledging, through science, what IS. I also don't for a second think that the "We create our own reality on a certain level" idea is necessarily attractive or pleasant at all. I was just discussing what I consider to be an important feature of our reality. The fact the we CAN alter certain outcomes in life through our minds should be studied even further in my opinion. I see no harm in using this "power" to heal someone dying of cancer who WANTS to be healed in this manner.

Well anyhow, I will now read that page. In the meantime anart, I would genuinely appreciate it if you could point out to me any programs you can see that I have running, based on what I've just said.

It strikes me odd that you acknowledge the main point of it being a violation of free will, and then you go to support the violation of free will through YCYOR. It seems you do not actually 'completely agree'.

I don't follow you. By analogy, you're saying that because someone possesses the power to kill another, it would be hypocritical to say that using that power is wrong. Or you're saying that if I accept the scientific fact that we can use the power of intention to cause healing or negative outcomes for another person, it is somehow hypocritical to then say that using such intention in such a manner is wrong. This is nonsense, as I hope you can see. Please read my post again. I do not anywhere advocate the power of intention when it violates another person's free will.

 

[anart]

Yes I've read the Wave series, although admittedly it was a couple of years ago now.

Please take the time to re-read the Wave series before pontificating further.

 

[Beau]

Do you actually want me to name names here?

Well, I think the purpose of anart's question was to get you to be more specific in what you were saying. This isn't about "naming names", which is played out to be some immoral act or something. It's about separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of what exactly you felt. Basically, you were being vague and anart was asking you to clarify so that further understanding and discussion could be made of it.

I don't see why that should be a problem. If anyone has an issue with anything anyone says on the forum they should bring it up. It's not about laying blame but rather coming to a better understanding through discussion. So, get it out, let's find out what's been gnawing at your brain on this issue.

 

[Bernhard]

Hi 3D Resident,

This article by Laura in regards to YCYOR is recommended to read as well:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151667-Order-Out-of-Chaos

An excerpt:

[...]Our universe seems to be made up of matter/energy and of consciousness.

Matter/energy by itself "prefers", as it seems, a chaotic state.

Matter/energy by itself doesn't even have a concept of "creation" or "organization". It is the consciousness that brings to life these concepts and by its interaction with matter pushes the universe towards chaos and decay or towards order and creation.

This phenomenon can modeled mathematically and simulated on a computer using EEQT (Event Enhanced Quantum Theory). Whether EEQT faithfully models the interaction of consciousness with matter, we do not know; but chances are that it does because it seems to describe correctly physical phenomena better than just the orthodox quantum mechanics or its rival theories (Bohmian mechanics, GRW etc.)

What we learn from EEQT can be described in simple terms as follows:

Let us call our material universe "the system". The system is characterized by a certain "state". It is useful to represent the state of the system as a point on a disc. The central point of the disk, its origin, is the state of chaos. We could also describe it as "Infinite Potential." The points on the boundary represents "pure states" of being, that is states with "pure, non-fuzzy, knowledge". In between there are mixed states. The closer the state is to the boundary, the more pure, more 'organized' it is.

Now, an external "observer", a "consciousness unit", has some idea - maybe accurate, maybe false or anywhere in between - about the "real state" of the system, and observes the system with this "belief" about the state. Observation, if prolonged, causes the state of the system to "jump". In this sense, you DO "create your own reality", but the devil, as always, is in the details.

The details are that the resulting state of the system under observation can be more pure, or more chaotic depending on the "direction" of the jump. The direction of the jump depends on how objective - how close to the reality of the actual state - the observation is.

According to EEQT if the expectations of the observer are close to the actual state of the system, the system jumps, more often than not, into more organized, less chaotic state.

If, on the other hand, the expectation of the observer is close to the negation of the actual state (that is when the observer's beliefs are not TRUE according to the ACTUAL state - the objective reality), then the state of the system, typically, will jump into a state that is more chaotic, less organized. Moreover, it will take, as a rule, much longer time to accomplish such a jump.

In other words, if the observer's knowledge of the actual state is close to the truth, then the very act of observation and verification causes a jump quickly, and the resulting state is more organized; pure. If the observer's knowledge of the actual state is false, then it takes usually a long time to cause a change in the state of the system, and the resulting state is more chaotic.

What this means is that order can be brought out of chaos by observing chaos as it IS and not pretending that it is otherwise.

In short, everyone who "believes" in an attempt to "create reality" that is different from what IS, adds to the increase of chaos and entropy. If your beliefs are orthogonal to the truth, no matter how strongly you believe them, you are essentially coming into conflict with how the Universe views itself and I can assure you, you ain't gonna win that contest. You are inviting destruction upon yourself and all who engage in this "staring down the universe" exercise with you.

On the other hand, if you are able to view the Universe as it views itself, objectively, without blinking, and with acceptance, you then become more "aligned" with the Creative energy of the universe and your very consciousness becomes a transducer of order energy. Your energy of observation, given unconditionally, can bring order to chaos, can create out of infinite potential.[...]

 

[John G]

I do get the impression that there is an ideology with some people on these forums that no matter what we all think in this world, nothing will change at a fundamental level in space-time which translates into observable, macroscopic effects.

We change our reality at the quantum level, at every moment. I mentioned this in my post. But it is important to grasp that, unlike mainstream science, quantum effects actually translate into observable effects in the macroscopic world. I actually see the understanding of this scientific fact all part of understanding and mastering this level of existence. It IS part of this level, therefore I see no use in pretending it isn't. I am hoping that the Wave page I am about to read can explain to me why accepting the fact that mind affects reality, EVEN in 3D, is somehow discordant with objectivity and what IS.

I don't dream I am a magician. I am merely acknowledging, through science, what IS. I also don't for a second think that the "We create our own reality on a certain level" idea is necessarily attractive or pleasant at all. I was just discussing what I consider to be an important feature of our reality. The fact the we CAN alter certain outcomes in life through our minds should be studied even further in my opinion. I see no harm in using this "power" to heal someone dying of cancer who WANTS to be healed in this manner.

There's a concept in quantum physics known as the Zeno (and anti-Zeno) effect which can be summed up as a watched pot never boils. In other words you don't want to have preconceived expectations messing things up. For all you know the cancer could be a symptom of someone whose 3rd density lessons have gotten so far off track that it's time for a 5th density refresher course. You can certainly have an in your own words (no mindless ritual) prayer with the universe (and 6th density) about what you are thinking but these things overall aren't your decision to make even if you could. To the extent we do anything with cosmic implications, it has very little to do with our 3rd density reasoning, it's mostly just us following our higher selves and learning from that as we go. There is no way my horrible at planning 3rd density brain got me through all the things I did that resulted in me finding this forum. Even before getting here I knew something weird was going on, it wasn't the normal play it safe me, I felt literally pushed forwards. Not everything worked in conventional terms, sometimes you get pushed to see the dead end before you can find a more fruitful path and sometimes the fruit on a path can't be seen until later. You can't push against the universe (as it says in Bernhard's post) you have to go with it.