my mum and me

[KTC]

I have wanted to ask for advice for a while now but I keep trying to figure things out in case I am asking silly questions.

My mother and I have a pretty good friendship. We live together with my husband and son and it works well for all of us on the whole. Except for the very different personality of me and my mum.

I am a very independent person. I enjoy my own company, need my own space and I don't see the sense in what I call small talk. When I go out and visit someone I like to just come home and slip back into the house without feeling the need to share where I have been, who I have been with, blah blah blah. In fact, I feel an invasion when I am asked questions of the sort. To me it is my business. Not that I would have been doing anything exciting, probably just coffee with a friend, a play date for my son or a visit with my Dad. Its not that I want to be secretive, its just that if I walk in the door and get all these questions I feel bombarded and then I retreat even more and don't want to share anything so my answers become shorter and shorter until I am just nodding or shaking my head. I actually do like to share my day but in my own time. Given the space I tend to open up and share all of that anyways.. And my husband or my Dad don't have the affect on me as my mum. They don't really ask all the questions at once so I feel more relaxed and more willing to talk.

My mum on the other hand loves companionship, seems to enjoy small talk (about what I perceive to be nothing) and sees no harm in asking me all the above questions as soon as I walk in the door. She has in the past said that she's on a 'needs to know basis' and while I realise its her way of being included, showing an interest and just having conversation, I find it unnecessary and completely exhausting.

Typically we come to heads every couple of weeks. I feel like I need space. I like companionable silence, no questions, no real small talk. I am happy to be together and if conversation strikes up thats cool but I don't need to share what I had for breakfast, who was there, what I'm doing later that day and what time that will be. And in turn you don't need to tell me, although if you want to thats okay. But as the questions keep coming I feel myself tensing more and more, shortening my answers and making a point not to look at mum when she asks these irrelevant questions... until she says something to the tone of 'don't you feel like talking' and I might reply 'not particularly. I just don't really like the small talk' So she will generally walk to her room, hang out there a while and finally come back out all tight lipped with this cold air of silence (which is very different to the peaceful quiet I am looking for) and say 'well I'm going out. You'll see me sometime tomorrow'. So this morning I asked (as I have before) 'am I not allowed to be me'. and she replies 'I don't know what you mean' I tell her that its not fair that she punishes me for not wanting to make the small talk because when she wants to make a point she always leaves the house (she used to do the same to my dad before they split). She tells me I can be and do whatever I want but there is this tension between us thats just awful and I know its because I haven't allowed her to question question question which I feel so suffocating and I can see hurts her so much.

So here we are, I have the house to myself which would be wonderful if it wasn't under such strained circumstances and she has gone out to nowhere in particular because she cant stand being in the house with me if I'm not going to talk which makes me not want to talk even more.

Its just the strangest situation and we're both aware of it in hindsight (we always apologise to each other after the fact) but I just wish it could work in every day life. We just seem to be coming from such opposite angles. I don't want my private nature to be wrong. And I hate the forced silence she presents me with. If she would just let me open up when I am ready, and if I would just let her ask without being offended... How can it work without hurting her and going through this cycle of stress??

 

[Nienna]

I don't know if this will help you. For me, after I came home from work, my step-children would run out and start with a load of questions and other things. I made a rule that when I got home, I had 10 minutes to wind down before answering their questions. If they forgot and started in on me right away, I would say, "10 minutes, remember?"

From what you have written, it seems to be all about mechanical you. Have you read about external consideration? Maybe finding a balance where you get to have a few minutes to settle down before telling your mother about your day.

fwiw

 

[Muxel]

Small talk isn't just "small talk". You said it yourself here:

[...] and while I realise its her way of being included, showing an interest and just having conversation, I find it unnecessary and completely exhausting.

If you consider yourself a STO candidate, surely you can give your mum even that which you may hold in contempt?

I only say this because your mum sounds so much nicer than mine.

 

[Laura]

Read George Simon's book "In Sheep's Clothing."

Who owns the house?

 

[ana]

Its just the strangest situation and we're both aware of it in hindsight (we always apologise to each other after the fact) but I just wish it could work in every day life. We just seem to be coming from such opposite angles. I don't want my private nature to be wrong. And I hate the forced silence she presents me with. If she would just let me open up when I am ready, and if I would just let her ask without being offended... How can it work without hurting her and going through this cycle of stress??

This is called "The Silent Treatment", it is a passive agressive form of emotional abuse in which the disapproval becomes evident without verbal communication ie without giving the target the opportunity to resolve the issue. The purpose is to invoke guilt in the other to achieve its goal and they are usually succesfull in doing so.

It seems it is commonly used by people who suffer from personality disorders although passive agressive individuals use it sometimes too.

I second Laura's recommendation, it will give you more background to analize your situation.

 

[Foxx]

Small talk isn't just "small talk". You said it yourself here:

[...] and while I realise its her way of being included, showing an interest and just having conversation, I find it unnecessary and completely exhausting.

If you consider yourself a STO candidate, surely you can give your mum even that which you may hold in contempt?

I only say this because your mum sounds so much nicer than mine.

A predator can be 'nice' when it serves them to be so. I think you have some flaws in your understanding of being STO, Muxel.

It sounds more like your mother is demanding your attention in ways that are not emotionally supportive at times when you are not willing to be giving your energy--the demand differentiated from a genuine request, in this respect, in that, should you choose not to make small talk (engaging in trivial dialog), you are punished afterward by the passive aggressive tactic of "The Silent Treatment", as Ana mentioned.

As well, "small talk" doesn't really seem to be particularly productive to me, as it engages one solely on a superficial level and does not engage one on a meaningful level. It can be a precursor to meaningful if the other person seeks a deeper understanding of the person they are asking, if the details are meaningful to the person emotionally, but otherwise seems to me to just consume energy.

Unfortunately, there's likely to be no way to change the relationship without causing your mother pain. Perhaps she might understand that you were on a 'needs privacy and space' basis, which is in conflict with her being on a 'needs to know basis'--a basis that seems especially self-aggrandizing and disrespectful of you, considering that you are not a child.

Good luck!

 

[KTC]

Who owns the house?

My mum and Dad own the house. We moved in to support my Mum emotionally and financially when my Dad left. I will look the book up now.

As well, "small talk" doesn't really seem to be particularly productive to me, as it engages one solely on a superficial level and does not engage one on a meaningful level. It can be a precursor to meaningful if the other person seeks a deeper understanding of the person they are asking, if the details are meaningful to the person emotionally, but otherwise seems to me to just consume energy.

Thats the way I see small talk. I am an observer by nature and tend to keep many thoughts to myself and will generally speak when I feel my conversation is relevant and of use. My Mum on the other hand speaks every single thought she has (or so it seems to me). If we had a quota of 10000 words a day she would be stacking up the credit card while I would have a healthy looking savings account ;)

My Mum is a very loving person and we do have a great relationship. This is our one struggle and I am looking for ways to move through it together. I certainly wouldn't trade her for quids. There is just work to be done from both of us I am sure.

Thanks every one for your input.

Admin note : quotation marks fixed

 

[herondancer]

Hi Fisheye,

Does your mother have any outside interests or hobbies? Her mentioning "being included" sounds like she doesn't get out much, and is relying on you for interacting with the world. Would it be possible to make some sort of formal agreement with her as Nienna Eluch has suggested? When my kids were young and I was home with them, my husband worked a very high stress job. By the end of the day, I was dying for some regular conversation, but all he wanted was some peace and quiet. We ended up agreeing that he would decompress in his workshop till dinner was ready, then talk afterward. Everybody got what they needed, it just needed a framework.

Good luck. It's great that your relationship with your mom is so warm.

 

[Muxel]

A predator can be 'nice' when it serves them to be so. I think you have some flaws in your understanding of being STO, Muxel.

Well it's not perfect, and I'll never really know until we get out of 3D STS reality, but when I mentioned "STO" in my reply to fisheye it was to point out that initiating small talk is her mother's way of getting company and interaction. Does that not qualify as a request that STO may fulfill? The only problem I see here is fisheye's unwillingness to give, resulting in her slowly shutting down the flow of conversation, which in turn causes her mother to take offense and pointedly leave the house.

Taking up Nienna's advice would allow fisheye to recharge upon arriving home, allowing her to then expend energies towards being STO. And small talk might lead to "big talk" – who knows?

My comment about her mother being "nice" was separate, and was simply a subjective observation.

 

[mocachapeau]

A predator can be 'nice' when it serves them to be so. I think you have some flaws in your understanding of being STO, Muxel.

Well it's not perfect, and I'll never really know until we get out of 3D STS reality, but when I mentioned "STO" in my reply to fisheye it was to point out that initiating small talk is her mother's way of getting company and interaction. Does that not qualify as a request that STO may fulfill? The only problem I see here is fisheye's unwillingness to give, resulting in her slowly shutting down the flow of conversation, which in turn causes her mother to take offense and pointedly leave the house.

Taking up Nienna's advice would allow fisheye to recharge upon arriving home, allowing her to then expend energies towards being STO. And small talk might lead to "big talk" – who knows?

My comment about her mother being "nice" was separate, and was simply a subjective observation.

Hi fisheye,

I think I partially agree with Muxel on this one. I say 'partially' because I think there are two separate issues that are conflicting with each other. There is your aversion to the small talk with your mum, and then there is her reaction to your aversion.

The first thing that came to mind when I read your post was that you have moved back in with your mother, and that you feel like she's treating you like a child, again. That you don't feel you have to answer to her anymore, so to speak. You may be feeling like she is prying into your personal life the way she did when you were younger and living at home. Maybe that's what she's doing, or maybe she's just trying to express an interest in your life, wanting to share. And maybe, for some reason, you don't WANT to share.

Also, you said "my husband or my Dad don't have the affect on me as my mum". You didn't say that your husband and Dad don't ask any questions, but that they don't have the same effect on you. That gave me the impression that others can ask you the same kinds of questions, but you only have this reaction when it is her. And that leads back to the fact that you are now living under the same roof again, and you may be reacting to her exactly the way you did when you were younger.

All of the above indicates to me that there is an issue inside of you, regarding your mother, that you need to resolve, yourself. But that doesn't mean that your mother definitely plays no role in the situation.

Giving you the "silent treatment" is, as others have stated, clear passive aggressive behaviour and could be an indication of some kind of personality disorder. That possibility aside, my initial take on it is that your mum needs to grow up, and learn that she can't have what she wants just by throwing a tantrum. She's trying to force you to behave the way SHE wants, and in a very childish way. That could simply be learned behaviour from her childhood that she never grew out of. But it is a good idea to do the suggested reading to see if there is anything worse lurking under the surface.

If you DON'T find anything worse, then I agree that you both need to find a compromise, because you both seem to have the same problem: neither one of you likes the others mode of communication, you both would like the other to change, you don't seem to understand each other. And now you are both back living under the same roof again.

My wife has the same tendency that you said your mom has, to seemingly "speak every single thought she has". It can be really annoying sometimes, but if she didn't do that she wouldn't be who she is, and I love her the way she is. So I accept it ... with only a bare minimum of occasional grumbling.

It does sound like you really love her for all her good qualities, and that's a good building block to have. Good luck!

 

[Laura]

Well it's not perfect, and I'll never really know until we get out of 3D STS reality, but when I mentioned "STO" in my reply to fisheye it was to point out that initiating small talk is her mother's way of getting company and interaction. Does that not qualify as a request that STO may fulfill?

In this case, it is not true asking; it is manipulation which is clear because if she does not get what she is demanding, then she gives the silent treatment. In other words the "request" - such as it is - has a string attached. That is NOT asking.

The only problem I see here is fisheye's unwillingness to give, resulting in her slowly shutting down the flow of conversation, which in turn causes her mother to take offense and pointedly leave the house.

In short, her mother cannot give what fisheye is asking for which is space. And fisheye has clearly asked for it more than once in a number of ways.

For a parent to treat a child this way is very destructive. Been there, done that.

Taking up Nienna's advice would allow fisheye to recharge upon arriving home, allowing her to then expend energies towards being STO. And small talk might lead to "big talk" – who knows?

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Laura]

Also, "passive aggressive" behavior should be understood: it is simply being passive to be aggressive, that is, not doing something one is asked to do, forgetting stuff, etc.

What we are talking about here is covert aggressiveness.

Also, neither of them are necessarily linked to personality disorders. Ya'll need to do more research on this before bandying these phrases about.

This comes across more as a dominance effort. Mother is saying: "You are living in my house, so I am going to make that clear by dominating you and that means I'm going to do things you don't like and I know you don't like them, just to have control over you." And, of course, it has to be done covertly. There is nothing passive about this at all.

A situation like this that is not dealt with effectively, can really escalate as "mother" builds up a pile of anger and fisheye multiplies resentment.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Also, "passive aggressive" behavior should be understood: it is simply being passive to be aggressive, that is, not doing something one is asked to do, forgetting stuff, etc.

What we are talking about here is covert aggressiveness.

Also, neither of them are necessarily linked to personality disorders. Ya'll need to do more research on this before bandying these phrases about.

This comes across more as a dominance effort. Mother is saying: "You are living in my house, so I am going to make that clear by dominating you and that means I'm going to do things you don't like and I know you don't like them, just to have control over you." And, of course, it has to be done covertly. There is nothing passive about this at all.

A situation like this that is not dealt with effectively, can really escalate as "mother" builds up a pile of anger and fisheye multiplies resentment.

Fwiw I agree with Laura on this matter.

I recognize your situation fisheye because I have a VERY covert aggressive mother. The only difference is that I don't live with her. But she does the same thing as your mother in her own way with her phone calls. And when I don't answer the phone right away or call her back right away, she leaves me these "poor me" messages and sneaks a couple of comments about how I'm such an "ungrateful daughter" and covering it up with "I'm only joking".

It hurts to hear those things, just as it hurts for you when your mom gives you the "silent treatment". I have come to learn that sometimes you need to set your boundaries. I have a strong "be nice" program so it's very difficult for me to do that at times. But if I don't, I'll end up completely drained all the time. So it's up to you to discover how to go about setting those boundaries, while at the same time not becoming angry or distasteful. Nienna Eluch gave you a good example of one way.

Also, have you read the Big 5 recommended books?

In Sheep's Clothing that Laura suggested to you is one of them, but others such as The Narcissistic Family, Trapped in the Mirror, and Unholy Hungers are other great books that can give you a deeper insight into yourself and your relationships.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: my mum and me

I think this might apply here:

From The Narcissistic Family:

Lack of Parental Accessibility

Lack of parental accesibility refers to emotional accessibility - the ability to have conversations about feelings. Many survivors will say that they never had in-depth conversations with their parents. Their parents would ''do work'' for them (that is, transport them, provide for them, or buy things for them), but if they really wanted or needed to talk about their feelings, the conversation would quickly turn in to an advice-giving session (do this, do that), a fight (you should have done this or that), or denial (you don't feel depressed, you're hungry and tired; things will be better in the morning). The parents were always ''too busy'' to talk. And, of course, the children could see that the parents were busy, doing things for the children, or the family, or the job. So, if the child felt resentful, it was because he was selfish, wrong, and mean-spirited.

Unclear Boundaries

In the narcissistic family, the children lack entitlement. They do not own their feelings; their feelings are not considered. When we do not have feelings, then others do not have to take our feelings into consideration.

Issues such as the right to privacy take on a different coloration in a narcissistic family. For instance, in a healthy family, privacy is respected and encouraged: parents do not come into bedrooms or bathrooms without knocking, they do not listen in on others' telephone conversations, read others' mail, or allow their own privacy to be abrogated by their children. There are clear boundaries, clear rules governing what the family members can expect from each other.

[...]

In the covertly narcissistic family, there may be clear rules governing all manner of boundary issues, including physical privacy. The problem, however, is twofold. First, the rules may be broken by the parents as their needs dictate, and second, there are no boundaries in terms of emotional expectations for the children. The children are always expected to meet the parents' needs, but the needs of the children usually are met only by happy coincidence.

Boundary issues are enormously complex for the survivor [..]. Adults raised in narcissistic families often do not know that they can say no - that they have a right to limit what they will do for others, and that they do not have to be physically or emotionally accessible to anyone at any time. In their families of origin, they may not have had the right to say no, or to discriminate between reasonable and unreasnable requests. Children in narcissistic families do not learn how to set boundaries, because it is not in the parents' best interests to teach them: the children might use that skill to set boundaries with them!

[...]

until adults understand that they have a right to feel whatever it is that they feel, and that they always had that right, they will be unable to move forward in boundary setting. And without appropriate boundaries, all relationships are skewed and unhealthy.

Further, I was reminded of a case story mentioned in this book. About a woman named Mary who would get frequent calls from her mum who would dump any of her issues on her:

After considerable discussion, Mary decided to express her feelings to her mother and set some boundaries on the relationship. ''Using 'I feel . . . I want', I'm going to tell her that I feel very angry when she calls me up and complains about my sisters and brothers, and that I don't want her to do it anymore.''

After a few tentative efforts, Mary was able to express her feelings to her mother, and she in fact terminated a number of conversations when her mother ''broke the rule.'' After a period during which her mother refused to speak to Mary at all (giving her ''the silent treatment''), her mother changed her telephone behavior. She began to call Mary less frequently, to Mary's relief, and the conversations were briefer, with more acceptable discussion topics. Her mother then started to call one of Mary's sisters and dump on her instead. As Mary said, ''Now it's my sister's problem; she's just going to have to learn to deal with it!''

As Mary learned, people continue to use certain interactive techniques because they work; the tactics get them wat they want. When those techniques no longer work, people stop using them. As long as Mary was willing to listen to her mother (that is, meet her mother's needs), her mother continued to dump on her. When that no longer worked - when Mary refused to listen (started to respect herself) and was able to communicate that in an adult, clear mannier - her mother stopped dumping on her. Mary thus was able to affect a modification of her mother's behavior, at least in relation to her.

Not that you should take the same method used by Mary per se, but just to illustrate an example of how boundaries can be set in a certain context.

 

[Foxx]

Also, "passive aggressive" behavior should be understood: it is simply being passive to be aggressive, that is, not doing something one is asked to do, forgetting stuff, etc.

What we are talking about here is covert aggressiveness.

Also, neither of them are necessarily linked to personality disorders. Ya'll need to do more research on this before bandying these phrases about.

Thanks for the clarification Laura! I too will look into that book and likely add it to my large stack of books to read.