My own experience with a psychopath - love wins out but it's been hell.

Maia

Jedi
Here in America almost 50% of all marriages end in divorce. In 80% of custody hearings the mother gets major custody of the child(ren).

Many children are raised by their mothers and never allowed or encouraged to get to know their father or his family.

Men are painted as brutish and savage.

Not all men are, in fact, like most animal species, the female is turning out to be more deadlier than the male.

How do I know this?

I am the paternal grandmother of Alexis and have gone through eight years of constantly trying to be allowed to see my own grand daughter.

Eleven years ago, my son brought over a very young and physically beautiful lady. She was 5', 110 pounds (soaking wet with a towel), long thick beautiful blonde hair, big brown eyes and well, by any man's standards, a real "beauty".

Michael, pulled me aside and said, "Well mom, what do you think, isn't she gorgeous!" (He did not express this sentiment as a question).

I replied, "Michael, looks are only skin deep. She has already bragged to us how she has stolen a cassett player from her own brother, how deeply she hates her family, they have drug problems (her brother is now currently dying of long term meth use) and comes from a very deeply disturbed family background."

My son replied, "Oh but I looooooooooooove her. She wants to be like us a normal family, you know, married, with kids and a house - the whole works, that's what she wants, and I'm going to give it to her."

We are not rich. My husband and I of 38 years have struggled our whole life, working very hard, scrimping and saving "for our three sons".

Our entire life has revolved around our three sons and their welfare and happiness. My husband was and continues to be a exceptional father, that is why I married him.

My son that first night then asked me if she could spend the night, she had a horrible fight with her father and couldn't go back home.

I replied, "I don't think that would be a good idea, we hardly know this young lady."

The subject was than dropped.

Fast forward to around midnight, they were still downstairs talking. I reminded Michael that Stacy was not to remain overnight under our roof as they were not married and this was ten years ago, our home, our rules. He agreed. We did offer Stacy money if she needed to check into a motel for a day or two. I thought that most generous. We also offered to "get to know her better, maybe meet her for lunch or such, she declined.

Fast forward to three AM. We have one upstairs bath, all three bedrooms share. The bedroom to the right of the master bedroom is my office and library where my computer is located at.

Anyway, it is three AM, I wake up to go to the bathroom which is to the left of our (husband & I) bedroom. I remember distinctly turning off our office/library's light, but there it was on and who is sitting at my desk, in front of my computer but Stacy.

Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but if you should invite me over for dinner, I would come, be on time, bring something nice and leave at the appropriate time. I would not invite myself to camp out in your home or stay past "the welcome period."

Also, I would, if invited into your home, no more think of touching your computer no more than taking your car for a spin without your expressed approval.

I was livid, my computer is my private property. My husband has his own computer, and I don't even go into his without asking first, for us this is JUST NOT DONE! It is a breech of polite and considerate conduct.

I than went in and woke up my husband and he said he would "handle this touchy situation". I did not want to be accused of fouling up our son's "happiness" or come off as the pushy mother in law to be. Personally I wanted to go in there and yank the little princess out of my chair and kick her skinny little butt out of my home.

Well she left, not happy I am sure.

In trying to reason with my son, I told him, you're not thinking with the head on your shoulders, her sweet smile changed once she wasn't allowed to run all over us Mike, somethings not right. I'm not the most socially smooth or adept person by a long shot and even I know that one never touches another's computer like one would never think of driving off with someone else's car. She simply had no respect for the property of another. I repeat I had a really bad feeling about this young lady from the get go.

Flash forward a few months later, we had treated the little princess out to dinner several times, taking her to the restaurant of her choice for her birthday, inviting her over and including her in our nice Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners, I honestly treated her very nice.

Every step of the way I could see she was a taker, everything had to revolve around what she wanted and she had no conception of being "nice" or playing "fair". She was a person without rules or restrictions as far as when she saw something, she would grab it regardless of who she hurt or ran over.

One night they sat my husband and I down on the couch and announced she was with child and were looking to get married within about six months, she was already two months along.

She was living with her father who was now really mad at her as he wanted her to have a second abortion (first was pre Michael). She refused this time.

Why?

She saw that:

My son had a good payroll job.
My husband had (and still has) a very good job and has been with the same company, working his way slowly up for now over 39 years.
I had a very good paying job
We had one ten room house and doing better than what she was use to.

Some background info on Stacy:

When I was first introduced to her father, she asked me to come over with her to pick up her things. Her father was reclined full length, laying down on the sofa, smoking and drinking. He took one look at me and the first words he uttered to me were, "God you're fat." I politely ignored his comment. He appeared to be semi-drunk, and possibly suffering from the beginnings of dementia from long term alcohol abuse. (I was in nursing years back).

We did not have any further contact with Stacy's father until the wedding.

We did have dinner with Stacy's mother the night before the wedding. J was a lovely woman who left her four children and abusive husband (including Stacy) years back because the father had gotten a hold of a very slick lawyer and she knew it would be hopeless to fight for custody of her children. J was also an immigrant from WWII Poland.

J left and I could tell this probably broke her heart but Stacy's father was a real piece of work. I have never run into people before that actually were so hateful, so eager to fight, they actually enjoyed fighting and hurting others, it was like a fun game to them to listen to them talk and brag about how they screwed someone.

The above concept was very foreign to me. I would rather run than fight, personally, I don't like fighting - it is exhausting and a waste of good energy.

Stacy's mother did not come to the wedding because I had told Stacy that if she thought her father would make a scene with her mother there it might prove very uncomfortable and wreck her wedding. Her father was now at the point where he said exactly whatever came to him and did not bother to spare anyone's feelings in the process.

As it was, several people made some very heartwarming and wonderful toasts at the wedding reception, however, the bride's father (as I anticipated) made a total jerk of himself by toasting not to Michael and Stacy's happiness but cutting his ex wife down. It was a good thing that J did not come to the wedding.

In my 58 years of life, Stacy's father is the only human being I have ever seen in a coffin I didn't feel sad for. Other than my husband's family, (I have none living), he had three friends.

Things went along smoothly for awhile.

I could tell Stacy really resented John and I being so excited and happy about our grand daughter and her parent's not even caring, so I tried to contain my joy.

Oh that was hard, Alexis was the most beautiful baby - so delicate, so sweet.

We chipped in quite a bit to help get them a townhouse - All babies deserve a little nest. They both lost their jobs and we ended up buying the townhouse off of them so it wouldn't go into foreclosure.

While most times it is the wife and mother that cares for and forms a bond with the children, Stacy had no clue or desire to mother Alexis. Changing poopie diapers made her vomit. So, while she worked, went to school and helped her brother Curtis at his DJ/Kareokee business, my son was the main caregiver of his daughter. They still have a very strong bond, usually reserved for the mother - but Stacy (the mother) was never around so Alexis bonded with Michael.

Stacy's father didn't want to see Alexis until he was on his death bed and her mother, the maternal grandmother, had long ago moved far away to another part of the country and remarried, starting a whole new life minus her ex-husband and children. This situation contributed to Stacy's psychological problems I believe. She simply never got to see how a loving, functional family operates. Her homelife had been one of being raised by a psychopath, full of hate and fighting everyone.

Alexis turned two in April of 2003 and was staying over at our house one night. We were all sleeping peacefully, after a fun filled day together.

I turned over, at again around three AM to find my husband not next to me. I got up to check on him. He wasn't in the bathroom but I could now see red and blue lights playing against the walls - the police were here!

I went outside to find my grand daughter wrapped in one of the angel quilts I bought her (and planned to keep as a heirloom item for Alexis's children) but now she was in Stacy's arms with her mother taking her away, with my husband, the police and Michael standing on the driveway.

I was informed that Stacy was leaving Michael (later she confided to me that my son gaining 45 pounds disgusted her).

I went up to her in her car and begged her, "please do not make this a vicious, drawn out affair - for the sake of your daughter, our grand daughter. What ever happened between you and Michael is none of my business - but Alexis is a part of us, we are also her family, please do not cut us out of her life, I am prepared to pay you up to $1,500 a month to ensure the baby has a nice place to live and good healthy food in her belly. I want to remain a part of her life, and we care deeply about you both." My sentiment went right over her head, I could see in her eyes she was shutting me out. :cry: Again, the concept of someone willing to do anything for a loved one was totally beyond her.

Well Stacy disappeared with Alexis for three months, :cry: Those three months we worried and worried about her and no the law didn't care.

After four months, she initiated divorce proceedings and for the last eight years we have shelled out over $18,000 in lawyer fees (in addition to what my son could also afford, another $12,000, to just be able to see his daughter and our grand daugher occassionally.

Thanksgivings, weddings, Christmases, Easter, most holidays we rarely got to see her.

BTW: In Illinois, the system does not make the woman comply with "joint custody" - that's a joke, only if you have mega bucks and can find a really aggressive lawyer will you get any justice from a psychopath.

And Laura is right, "Birds of a feather, flock together."

When we did get to see her, Alexis would cry when it came time "to go back to mom's". She would act out, get all bent out of shape, clinging to my son, my husband and me.

Once two years back she begged me to "take her away, we could run away together." and I had to tell her, "Sorry, we have to obey the law."

The law is not just, nobody yet has bothered to speak with my grand daughter. She, "by law" is considered the property of her mother.

Joint custody in Illinois means (usually the father) gets to see his child(ren) 48 hours every other weekend. And that's if the woman decides to comply. Stacy would go for months in non-compliance and the court didn't care.

We have experienced the following:

Stacy has stalked and contacted my son's fiance.
Mike has dated two different women in eight years.
Stacy has dated and lived with around seven or eight men.
She has called his place of employement and got him fired. Michael worked for the Illinois Tollway Dept and she cut her own throat because now Michael losing this job he could no long pay child support - we had to help him get a lawyer because the court doesn't care if the woman stalks, physically abuses (Stacy has punched Michael in the parking lot) or does not follow "joint custody rulings, the woman can get by with anything in Illinois. The court only cares if the father is making payments. No matter if the ex-wife called the ex-husband's employer and got him fired.

For eight years this monster has stalked, harrassed our son and made our financial and emotional life miserable.

Stacy as stated before punched Michael at the pick up point and this upset my grand daughter, as she said, "Mama punched Papa and the Policemen laughed."

Michael, my husband and I have never been given a phone number, address, school, doctor, no information about Alexis. For eight years we were only included marginally in Alexis's life.

Alienation is a popular game I was told by our lawyers, the woman alienates the child by keeping THEIR CHILD(REN) away from the father and his family.

Now the antiquated laws were made to protect women before they could get a decent job, and when most men were unfortunately brutish.

In this particular case, my son was never a brute. Oh he's sloppy, leaves socks where they fall, toilet seat up, sloppy but basically a nice, kind, gentle person who did the bulk of parenting Alexis as a infant.

However, times have changed. While many men are brutes, I myself have found more women than men to be psychopathic than men.

Most men are too stupid, manipulative wise, they are more like dogs, where as women are smarter socially, they are more like cats, sneaky, manipulative and actually enjoy practicing predatory behavior.

Again, this is just my own opinon and I only have my own experience to go by.

Stacy, my ex boss (my job was outsourced to India), the most horrendous dealings I have had with psychopaths - have been women. I have met a few men, but by and large, women are smart enough to take it to a whole new level. The women managers I encountered were all psychopathic.

See the movie, "The Orphan".

Women are just so good at manipulating, they don't get caught and our society promotes the sterotype brutish male vs poor defenseless female. (They never met Stacy).

Well, it's been eight years and Stacy has had about eight boyfriends. She has finally gotten one to propose marriage and he met with our son. His statement after talking with Mike was, "Gee you're a pretty decent guy, nothing like what Stacy told me.

In fact, the new boyfriend (heaven help him) has asked Stacy to please stop with the battle or he won't marry her. So now we have a written agreement she signed that finally Michael will be allowed more "access" to his daughter.

Meanwhile, Alexis has developed real separation issues among other deep psychological wounds, no child should have to endure. However many do because the woman puts her own vendictive, desires to "get even" ahead of her own child(ren's) welfare.

And I am not talking about protecting a child from a abusive father, ours was not the case.

Recently a few years back, she went to court trying to claim ownership of the town house, but my husband and I had the receipts showing we paid 95% of the mortagage on this property. fyi: If she allowed us to be a part of our grand daughter's life she would be the owner of the townhouse as I would do anything to maintain contact with my one and only grandchild. But, she enjoyed hurting, fighting, just like her father did and that's exactly why her mother moved as far from her and started a new life as possible.

It's been eight years of hell, pure hell - all that money going towards lawyers, it's a racket the lawyers promote to make themselves rich. That money could have, should have gone towards Alexis's education or wedding.

But Stacy lives to fight. That's all she has ever known.

I would have rather given the money outright over to Stacy for Alexis vs paying a bunch of lawyers to out manuever her trying to erase us from our grand daughter's life.

I don't know if I've explained it clear enough, at this point rehashing over this I find myself crying (again) as this is not how I wanted it to be.

My son, like many men, thought with the head between his legs and not on his shoulder.

Stacy was smooth, she came from a very disfunctional family background and saw our family, which, while not perfect, were pretty happy and loving, she saw we had"stuff" and she wanted it, and would stop at nothing trying to take it.

If you are a man and a man with some real money - I give you fair warning, you must be very careful who you give your heart to.

Headgames, at everyone's expense, no matter who she hurt. She thinks of only one person, herself.

Once she told me her mother sent Alexis a blanket and I said, "Oh that's wonderful!" and she looked at me completely floored, and said, "Aren't you jealous?" and I said, "No, when you love someone, you're happy whenever they get something nice in their life." Her look said it all - this concept of wanting something good for a loved one was completely outside her understanding, a foreign concept to her.

Life is one big fight after fight after fight for this young woman. She can't hold a job, an apartment, her friends, everyone around her eventually wises up and drops her like a hot potato, after being used and hurt by her.

Well, the little princess of psychopathica has finally found another victim. We now, after $18,000, get to see Alexis regularly and in passing, Alexis and I, in one of our talks she said, "Grandma, I want to be like you and Grandpa - my mother is mean, all she does is fight with everyone."

I kept my mouth shut and went onto another subject as I am afraid if I say anything I will risk losing my precious grandbaby again.

She has had to endure so much for one so young.

Men are not the only psychopaths out there, there are plenty of women - I've watched them operate and they're far superior to men, because women have had to learn to survive in a "man's world" for so long, they've become adept at manipulation.

Alexis once told me, "I hate my mother, she is a bad person." and I told her, "You love your mother because she is your mother, but you hate what she is doing and that can make you feel icky." Alexis replied, "Yes, that's why I'm confused inside sometimes."

Our society is big on promoting the sterotype "brutish male" vs the "poor defenseless female" but that in and of itself is another conspiracy, the separation of the sexes, as Rockefeller once said, "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers".

TPTB Don't want us to unite and the family unite has systematically and is successfully being destroyed and that's exactly the way TPTB want it.

United we stand, divided we fall and folks, we're falling fast.

Children no longer see how two people work things out, talk things through, compromise, treat each other with respect and kindness.

What are they being taught?
 
That indeed does sound like a horrible 8 years. I remember you writing about it a while back. The absence of understanding human love really does have pathological written all over it. Congratulations on being able to see your granddaughter once again! :hug2:
 
Men are not the only psychopaths out there, there are plenty of women - I've watched them operate and they're far superior to men, because women have had to learn to survive in a "man's world" for so long, they've become adept at manipulation.

Yes, good observation, there's no difference anymore in most cases between female and male energy, females are behaving like males and adopting their values, compassion is gone, PTB did a good job at suppressing it in most females, firstly by not allowing women to be involved in political matters, but now with media they don't even need to anymore. Glad there's something good that came out of it, good example of patience that pays off, but basically this women was only for money, animal nature fully embodied. Seen this a lot, especially when I was going out, it makes me sick, no honor, no dignity, nothing, they are so easy to sell themselves when they got the chance if it gives them opportunity for "better" life that they define in materialistic sense. Just a thought that fell on my mind, maybe she is OP but it's possible that she's also a psychopath, but it seems she wasn't very good at hiding tracks and all signs were there.
 
So glad Stacy has moved on. I expect she feels that Alexis will get in the way of her new life, and will want her out of the way, which is good news for all of you. She had you over a barrel because you love, making you vulnerable.
Alexis is still lucky to have a loving father and grandparents. I hope the damage done to her can be healed, but it sounds like you might be the right ones for the job. (Most of us wish we had such a caring family.)
I feel bad for Stacy's new victim.
 
Since Stacy loves to fight, have you ever considered acting - and I mean really putting some effort into it - like you no longer care, that you aren't interested, that you have moved on and no more drama, no more money, no more anything? That might actually make her determined to force you to give more time to Alexis. But it would take nerves of steel because, for awhile, you would have to really, REALLY act that way.
 
I have psychopathic females in my family, and they have never been caught in anything by the law. They're not in the statistics. Maybe the male psychopaths are just more easily detected, known about.

There are, however, some positive things in your story: First, your grandchild sounds like a kind and smart girl. She has understood by herself that her mother is bad, and she wants to be like you. She's not like her mother. By giving her positive experiences, to balance, and showing her other ways of social interactions than her mother do, you will do your grandchild good.

It's also a good idea to hide your feelings from a psychopath. They just exploit them. Other peoples misery is their fun. I do not know if the mother of your grandchild is a real psychopath, but it's probably a good idea anyway. I think Laura's proposal is worth trying, at least if the conditions change and you're not allowed to see your grandchild again.
 
Since Stacy loves to fight, have you ever considered acting - and I mean really putting some effort into it - like you no longer care, that you aren't interested, that you have moved on and no more drama, no more money, no more anything? That might actually make her determined to force you to give more time to Alexis. But it would take nerves of steel because, for awhile, you would have to really, REALLY act that way.

My doctor has warned me that this long drawn out battle is beginning to take a toll on my health so I've begun to try to actually distance myself somewhat, which is really hard. Yes distancing is good advice and strangely enough, the Éiriú Eolas program has been a tremendous help and by following the belly breathing, I'm able to get my blood pressure down and have found it to be a big eliminator of this long drawn out stress.

Also, this new boyfriend, soon to be husband, seems pretty nice and able to control her better than the others. D doesn't seem to be a fighter like Stacy.

Maybe it's because she is near 35 and losing steam and maybe it's because with the last court hearing our lawyer got a lot more aggressive with her? We are lucky with the "justice" system in America that we have a lot more money than her and she's beginning to get the drift that she's going to run out of money for her lawyer before we run out of money for ours.

In America money is the only thing that can buy justice now (my own opinion).

Stacy has been caught numerous times in court "non-complying" with "Joint Custody" and the new judge is a woman who is more just than the old male judge that was retired. They have also begun to catch her "bending the truth" (lying) and this new judge (a woman) isn't going to take this funny business.

For now, Stacy seems to be laying off of Michael and allowing more contact. Also Michael and her signed a legal agreement that he would be allowed to be active in Lexie's school events.

I cannot stress enough to everyone out there, from a legal stand point, when dealing with a psychopath, GET ALL AGREEMENTS IN WRITING! A psychopath will only abide by their promised word as long as it's useful to them. Once the "agreement" is no longer of use to them, they will revert back to their same old modeus of operation.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed ideas and encouragement.

I really appreciate everyones kind words.

:)
 
The Water Bearer said:
Alexis once told me, "I hate my mother, she is a bad person." and I told her, "You love your mother because she is your mother, but you hate what she is doing and that can make you feel icky." Alexis replied, "Yes, that's why I'm confused inside sometimes."

I understand why you said that, but I disagree with the rationale. You mentioned you don't want to say anything that could be used as ammo to take Alexis away again, but based on my experience, you shouldn't discount the child's feelings. You didn't totally discount them, as you did acknowledge her feelings of hate towards her mother. Alexis told you how she felt and you basically told her no, she doesn't feel that way. When I was a child in a similar situation, it would drive me up the wall when adults would discount my feelings. I would tell them how much I did not love my father and how I never wanted to see him again. And time and time again they would tell me "No, you will grow out of it". Well, guess what? I never did. It had the result of making me feel more isolated and really just helped solidify the path I was on. In Alexis's case, my guess would be it could cause conflict in your relationship with her, as she might not feel she can share things with you that she thinks you don't approve of.

It's great that Alexis has a bastion of support on her side, but based on my experience, don't tell her how she feels. She's not looking for your confirmation of her feelings, she trying to share them with you. If you need to say something, like in the situation above, ask her why she feels that why and tell her you understand.

My two cents.
 
The Water Bearer said:
Since Stacy loves to fight, have you ever considered acting - and I mean really putting some effort into it - like you no longer care, that you aren't interested, that you have moved on and no more drama, no more money, no more anything? That might actually make her determined to force you to give more time to Alexis. But it would take nerves of steel because, for awhile, you would have to really, REALLY act that way.



I cannot stress enough to everyone out there, from a legal stand point, when dealing with a psychopath, GET ALL AGREEMENTS IN WRITING! A psychopath will only abide by their promised word as long as it's useful to them. Once the "agreement" is no longer of use to them, they will revert back to their same old modeus of operation.

I thought for a bit there you were talking about my ex-wife :shock: I did get custody of my kids even being the single dad, but I still spent 7 yrs in court fighting with their psycho mother. VERY draining to say the least. As you know, this type of creature lives to fight and cause agony even if it's not in their best interest. I was giving her $3,000/month before it became apparent that I should take custody, but she still wanted more. After/during court, she ended up without her kids and had to pay me $250/mth. (sounds like "the scorpion and the frog")

But as you said about getting "everything in writing", I cannot stress/second this enough. It got to the point where I refused to even talk to her except in writing and only then if dated and signed. It's almost like all of these types read from the same play book. I gave up dating after being involved with 3 more of this type, in the 12yrs since my divorce

Good luck with your battle, hopefully she will lose interest, as she now has a new victim to feed on. (I feel for him)
 
Stellaria_graminea said:
I have psychopathic females in my family, and they have never been caught in anything by the law. They're not in the statistics. Maybe the male psychopaths are just more easily detected, known about.

Not splitting hairs here nor diminishing what anyone says but I don't think that many women are truly psychopathic. Ponerized, educated and conditioned that way but rarely psychopathic. Doesn't make it any easier. I was married to a 'Stacey' from mid-west USA and she shares many traits with Water Bearer's Stacey. On a visit to her home state I asked married men what it was like to be married, have kids and live in the USA. Among other things they pretty well described my then-wife's personality traits and said under no circumstances to move over to the US. In short they said that there were a lot of 'Staceys' around. I'm fortunate to have remained in Australia where the family court has at least some semblance of sanity. In the US I'd have been screwed, on many levels. It was a police state long before 911, a gender biased one.

Psychopathic female behaviour can slip under the radar for a number of reasons. Here's one more or less personal account. A boyhood friend of mine was arrested at gunpoint at the behest of his violent ladyfriend. She had leveled a false charge of violence against him, he was jailed overnight, strip and cavity searched and labelled a woman basher. Almost 5 months later the charges were dropped when her chronic lying became apparent to the police and her beak. She mounted a facebook smear campaign against him even using the psycopathy checklist as one of her weapons. Eventually the petty tyrant fell on her sword. Was she held to account for her behaviour? No, no charges were laid for falsely accusing an innocent man. He could have been shot while being arrested or attacked in prison.

Five years ago, Crystal Gail Magnum accused 3 male Duke University students of raping her. With the aid of a corrupt DA, police who hid evidence they ended up in court where they faced 30 years in prison. The campus largely vilified them. The accusations were false. Her punishment, nothing, five years and many self inflicted 'legal problems' later....

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-03/news/29398867_1_crystal-gail-mangum-duke-lacrosse-boyfriend

If she had been locked up 5 years ago, this man would still be alive, he died of his wounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

In the above cases these women used The State to hurt and bully their victims. Male aggressors would be more likely to use their own means to deal with their victims and hence be more directly accountable.

A woman cuts off her husband's penis, tosses it in a garbage disposal and turns it on. Later, on a mainstream TV show called 'The View' Sharon Osborne laughingly describes the event as 'Quite Fabulous' much to the delight of the panel and the audience. Is she fired for this? No, she makes a smirking 'apology' the next show. I doubt a male presenter would be so treated, it would be the end of his career.

Where's the accountabilty here?

There are, however, some positive things in your story: First, your grandchild sounds like a kind and smart girl. She has understood by herself that her mother is bad, and she wants to be like you. She's not like her mother. By giving her positive experiences, to balance, and showing her other ways of social interactions than her mother do, you will do your grandchild good.

That's good to hear but it's unlikely to be over yet, I've seen men lose contact with their kids as they hit their teens when they become especially vunerable to emotional manipulation. Up until then it's been more or less fine all things considered.

Kudos to you Water Bearer, for posting and your efforts for your family. I've researched this subject extensivley, there are many grandparents like you and second wives too, going into bat for their sons/husbands when the family court ignores them. Thank you.

Blessings and good luck to you.
 
Hi Water Bearer,

I am really sorry that you and your family had to go through all this madness.

I have read your post with great interest, as I work as a volunteer for a very small (independent) foundation that supports parents, children and grand-parents when they have to deal with social services (SS) (or your CPS) and family courts.

I hear all kinds of things. Sometimes the mothers make the lives of their children and ex-partners hell, sometimes it is the other way round. Sometimes it is SS that create misery and havoc for the families in question.

But you are right what in the name of the universe are we teaching our children, if they see us argue and fight and end up in family courts?

Recently I heard from a father who was accused of sexually abusing his young daughter. He had to make an appearance at the police station. According to him the police told him that they got quite a few mothers accusing their ex-partners of sexual abuse.
I think it is true, that the people that are not emotionally stable are disintegrating more and more. Why put somebody through hell like that? The woman in question later recanted her story. But the damage was already done.

Anyway, your grand-daughter has one great advantage and that is that she was able to at least form a close relationship to her dad in the beginning of her life, during these most precious, important formative years. She knows what love means and how it feels.

She also knows what hate is. Do not underestimate the importance of that knowledge!
I remember a point in my life when I knew that I didn't love my mother any more. I am not sure whether I remember correctly, but I do know that at that point the love was gone. I had made her a drawing for her birthday and she told me to go and draw again, for it wasn't nice enough. In my memory that was a turning point.

I think that young people know their feelings better than we do most of the time. We can actually learn from their emotional honesty.

These painful experiences also teach us a great deal about ourselves, the nature of man and the world. You all have suffered tremendously, but you will come out of it stronger.

OSIT.
 
ignis.intimus,

I didn't discount Lexie's feelings but keep in mind she is now 10 and according to the law, the court will not talk or recognize her as a person until she is 12. At the time she was around 8 when she made this statement and had 4 more years to go.

Now, we were told by several lawyers (good ones) that if the court thinks the son or his family is trying to "interfere" with the child/mother relationship, the father may lose the "privilege" to see his child. Our lawyer expressed that it would be better to "keep your mouth shut, so your words can't be used against you". We never mention Stacy unless Lexie brings her name up, which is rare.

Stacy has, on numerous times out and out committed perjury in court - she's actually lied under oath to the judge. I am not a good liar, if you met me, you could tell if I'm lying - I'm just no good at it. I have a curse on me or something, I can't lie without showing it. :-[

There is a special bond between all women and their mothers, even the "bad mothers". I believe my grand daughter does love her mother, but she hates the type of person her mother is and what she does. Stacy doesn't tie Lexie to a wall and beat her. She is the one who for the past eight years has over saw and managed Lexie's life and health and done in many respects a good job.

Now, my own husband's mother was a really kind, sweet, wonderful person. One day her and I were alone in her living room, my husband had gone off somewhere and Rita and I were talking, this was years back before Lexie. Rita had a picture of her mother in her wedding dress, a beautiful picture of a 1920's bride with lilies and lace. I was looking at the picture and said, "Rita, your mother was a beautiful bride." Now, I have never ever before or afterwards heard my mother in law say anything negative about anyone, she was always the most loving and kind soul. She was also a lady, I never heard her curse except that one afternoon, she said in reply to my comment, "She was very beautiful but a bitch." :O

I didn't know what to say, I was floored, really floored. :O

We talked at length about Rita's conflict of loving her mother, but hating the kind of person she was and Rita commented that "I had a major psychological conflict, living with my mother because she was so domineering she drove my father away. I loved her but hated the kind of person she was." I repeated to Lexie what Rita had said to me because she was having the exact same emotional conflict. It was creepy, at that moment, Lexie looked exactly like Rita only younger.

A child and their mother is different than a child and the father. Partly I think this is due to a mother carrying her child inside of her for 9 (or more) months, the child is literally a part of the mother, the child hears the mother's heart beating, I could go on and on.

Maybe this has to do with my own psychological make up. I lost my mother at 9 to cancer. She was here one moment, went in the hospital for exploratory surgery and dead two days later. My mother worked full time right up almost the day before her surgery. She wasn't a psychopath, she was a wonderful, gentle, kind, soul who because she died when I was 9, I will forever see her through the eyes of a 9 year old.

Don't get me going on the relationship between mother and daughters..............it's a very special and sacred bond that even a person being messed up can never sever without a severe emotional conflict.

Lexie does love her mother but simply hates the type of person she is and it is my belief that there in lies the conflict psychologically. Lexie was acting out and I pulled her aside and asked her what was up. She said she felt confused, I asked about what and she said she hated her mother. I asked her, "You don't really hate your mother, do you?" She said, (sniffling), "yes, she is always fighting with everyone, she lies, steals and I hate her."

When I said, "You don't hate your mother, you probably love her but hate what she is doing." I said that because I saw (and I know Lexie very well) that she had a psychological conflict within her. When I said what I said I believe, if memory serves me correctly that she probably doesn't hate her mother, she hates what her mother is doing and maybe the type of person she is. I also told her that many people go through having these feelings, they are called conflicts and when your head tells you one thing and your heart says something completely different, it can leave you with a icky feeling, if you have that icky feeling, you're probably having mixed emotions, or a conflict." Yes I said all that to her. After I said that she seemed relieved, it was almost like I had taken a splinter out. Personally I think she loves her mother very much.

What, I think, helped Lexie in this conversation more than anything was to know that everyone goes through this type of stuff. She wasn't alone or unique. This was and is a common human problem many people have to work out.

Most people are not completely all bad and children identify with BOTH their parents. That is why when any of you out there destroy your ex in the eyes of your child, you are tearing a little piece of them down. Sorry that's the way I see it, humans are very complicated.

You've given me something to think about however and if Lexie ever wants to revisit this conversation again I will tell her I didn't mean to discredit or ignore her feelings. But I personally between you and I, don't think she hates her mother. She loves her mother.

Hopefully in the years to come I can broach this subject again and ask Lexie if she felt I discounted her true feelings.

Luckily we have a very strong relationship, Lexie and I talk deeply on many things and again, thank you for calling this to my attention.
 
But as you said about getting "everything in writing", I cannot stress/second this enough. It got to the point where I refused to even talk to her except in writing and only then if dated and signed. It's almost like all of these types read from the same play book. I gave up dating after being involved with 3 more of this type, in the 12yrs since my divorce

My second son, who is quite timid/shy, after watching all this has also given up dating. He says he is essentially a monk. "The heartache isn't worth the trouble. I'm not going through that."

Sad, all three of my sons mentioned that, at least with the young ladies they have encountered (Midwest American heartland), the women aren't nice anymore.

I myself cannot believe all women are like that, maybe just the ones he has met.

But the area we live in is a suburban, high corporate pressure area. We live near one of the largest midwest cities. (Hint, we have one hell of a big lake) ;)

If I could chose to live somewhere else and start all over again, I would have chosen a more rural, country area. I love the country and if I ever win the lottery, I'm moving to the country. But, 40 years back my husband and I found really good, long term jobs, a nice house and what I thought would be a good solid place to raise my children.

Now we're getting into American psychology and how women have changed and how the corporations have split up (on purpose I think) the single most strong unit of humanity, the family.

Ahhhhhhhhh, break up the family unit, break up the sacred love of a man and woman and pit them against each other, make it fashionable to have a princess complex or a he man/brute complex and you've got your drone servants by the neck. Add in to the mix a pressuring society where you have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, you are exhausted and probably drink or take some antidepressant to "calm down" in addition to a fast food diet, chemtrails, fluoride in the water, HAARP, or some other kind of waves that disrupt "normal thinking" and you're really talking "disturbing the force."

Remember that phase, and to me it's one of the most true, "United we stand, divided we fall." That phase alone speaks volumes.

In order to conquer your enemy or to claim power over others, you must first destroy their center of unity..................with Homosapiens,, that sacred center is the family.

If you read one book, read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". I've gone through three copies of this one book because I've reread and reread it and folks, seriously this is going to sound wacko, but someone is waging war on us.

The 50m question is who is really at the very top of the pyramid, really calling the shots? Myself, no, I don't think their 100% Homosapien.

To really over come your enemy or conquer a people, you first must find their center most strength and crush it. Eat them from the inside out, quietly, they won't even know what hit them.

Hollywood has been the single biggest culprit with their subliminal messages that secretly destroy the family unit. Hollywood is nothing but a PR for TPTB and promote and glorify being STS vs. STO.

My grand daughter is just one of tens of millions of children, a whole lost generation being prepared for heaven's know what.
 
Brewer said:
Stellaria_graminea said:
I have psychopathic females in my family, and they have never been caught in anything by the law. They're not in the statistics. Maybe the male psychopaths are just more easily detected, known about.

Not splitting hairs here nor diminishing what anyone says but I don't think that many women are truly psychopathic.

Some authors says one percent, some says a bit less. Others says the males are more easily detected, and that the number of psychopathic females are more uncertain.

The psychopathic females in my family seem very clearly to have inherited it - and they have the characteristics of classical / essential psychopathy. Maybe it would shock you a bit if I give a list of things they have done and said.

It's really hidden! When it, rarely, happened that anyone get suspicious, the person that caught a glimpse of what was really going on was told it was plain hysterical to think negatively of these females.

The psychopaths in my family are smart and cooperate, and could easily hide an attack as an accident. Easy for them, as they preferred to attack small children, for example when one of the parents of the child said things they didn't like. Definitely not nice people, and I don't like to have relatives like that. Still, it's much worse to pretend that they do not exist or are "kind inside" or "born kind, but damaged by society". Not these females, but some of their victims are.

(I am a female myself, and I do not think that females are worse than men - rather better to hide, more manipulative. Also, I think I wouldn't believe what I have seen if I didn't experience it. So, I had to see it.)
 
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