Mycoplasma: An Interesting Trail ?

[name]

Last month I read the patriotic rant of an Israeli living in Australia exhorting his compatriots to leave the land, in the 'risque' (accent on the e) fashion of people who say the opposite of what they mean, or mean the opposite of what they say. Pretty normal stuff these days, until I read that he had been stationed in Hebron. That woke me up, since for personal reasons I've become a bit of an expert in that place, w/o ever having been there.

Here is a short quote form his racist ramblings:

Some readers may wonder whether I'm some kind of leftist, Arab-loving traitor who is unconcerned about making his contribution to the country. Have no worries, I already contributed, and not at the office. I did my military service in a combat unit, I was a career officer for a while, I did reserve service, I carried loads, I was stationed at roadblocks, I guarded, I screened, I navigated, I greased, I planted landmines, I patrolled, I ambushed, and I was fired at. I know Tul Karem and Hebron better than I know Hadera and Ramat Gan.

The whole thing is here: _http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1350

I started looking if there was anything in Google about this guy. There was.

For starters, he was mentioned in an article at The Age. Relevant excerpt (emphasis mine):

Microbiologist Idan Ben-Barak prefers a different approach altogether. He wants to teach kids the real dirt about microbes, or micro-organisms, initially through a book and later perhaps through a website or CD-Rom.

"There's so many cool things about microbes," he says, listing a few: microbes can repair their own DNA, survive a nuclear holocaust, live in thermal vents in Antarctica, alter their appearance to evade our immune systems. The problem is we're only interested in microbes in so far as they affect humans - so there are evil, disease-carrying microbes and good microbes that help us fight disease.

"But why can't we just look at this world as it is!" says Ben-Barak. The other graduates speak of him as a celebrity scientist in waiting - and you can see why. He's jumpy with passion, a confident storyteller, a natural humorist. Remember his name.

(full article here: http_colon_//tinyurl_dot_com/yw5r9z)

So jumpy-with-passion Idan has become a microbiologist, after having been a "career officer" at the IDF ? What could have made him decide to leave an exciting career of "planting mines, ambushing, manning checkpoints" for a quite academic idyll in faraway Australia ? Oh, and teaching aussie kids, lest we forget. I wonder if he teaches them the song "Hayalim, Hayalim, Kama Yaladim Haragta Ad Hayom?", which any IDF officer ought to know.

I looked further. According to what I found, he is working on a PhD title at the veterinary faculty of the University of Melbourne, in the Microbiology Lab (website http://www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au). The only other source I found about him was the online copy of Unimelb "Graduate News" magazine from last Feb/2007 on page 11 (PDF File: http://tinyurl.com/269gn4).

Title of his dissertation, according to above ? "Functions of proposed virulence factors of the avian pathogen Mycoplasma Gallisepticum".

My questions:
- first, reality check: am i being paranoid ?
- what is the interest in mycoplasma of a guy who one can reasonably suspect of having been involved in crimes against humanity, and who displays an attitude of extreme racism in his patriotic rants on yediot ahronot ? there have been several threads discussing mycoplasma gondii (another kind of mycoplasma) here on the forum BTW (use search function), my initial suspicion is based on this information, which includes quotes from czech research.
- is there any relationship of the mycoplasma gallisepticum and what has become known as "avian flu" in popular parlance ? check the following to understand what i mean:

Mycoplasma gallisepticum is an avian pathogen that causes a chronic respiratory disease of chickens and results in significant economic losses to the poultry industry worldwide. Colonization of the host and the establishment of chronic disease are initiated by the cytadherence of M. gallisepticum to the host respiratory epithelium. ...

(from http://fensome.lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Geary,SJ)
- _vague_ knowledge/memory on my side that military establishments are/have been researching mycoplasma for their own purposes. does anybody else on the forum know something more specific ? URLs ?
- similarities/differences between mycoplasma gondii and gallisepticum ?

BTW: according to what I know, the IDF pays their ppl any study they want during/after service (Keit may want to confirm/deny this).

 

[Miss Isness]

The root 'galli' means chicken in Latin.

 

[idan]

You could've just asked me, you know...

To answer your questions:

- you are a bit paranoid, yes. I did my stint at the army, was not involved in any crimes against humanity that I know of (unless you include that one time someone shot at me) and went away to study medical science, a subject that interests me a lot more than army crap. I then got hooked on microbiology because it's interesting. Mycoplasma are wonderous creatures (if you want to know more, check out their "antigenic variation" moves in google or wherever - sweet indeed).

- You'll be happy to know I'm not studying mycoplsma any more. Not that I understood what connection you make between army service in Israel and studies in Australia, but whatever. Have you considered the notion that going to australia and writing a book is something a person would actually do just because he'd like to, and not because of some shady conspiracy?

- "avian flu" is caused by a VIRUS. Mycoplasma are BACTERIA. If you don't know the difference I'll just tell you it's a bigger difference than between yourself and an oak tree. In short, there's no connection between my research and avian flu.
Even if there was, I'm not sure what it is you were suggesting: That I'm involved in a racially-fuelled Australian-Isaeli conspiracy to kill chickens?


Idan

 

[idan]

Oh, one other thing....

It's interesting to see that you think I'm one of these "people who say the opposite of what they mean, or mean the opposite of what they say. " I actually meant exactly what I said - as I normally do - and as you can see from the dozens ands dozens of responses I got (not to mention the hundreds of responses to the original article (in Hebrew)) branding me a traitor, defeatist, etc., most people took me at face value and didn't think I was trying to be subtle or "risque".

come to think of it, I can do that too - now I understand your post to be a risque, ironic, parody of tenuous conspiracy theorists. Brilliantly done, mate.

 

[Al Today]

I usually hold my tongue, for fear of running emotional programs that really accomplish nothing. Forgive me for straying from the subject, but I just gotta comment.
I tried talking to a rock one day. I must have talked for about five minutes, trying to engage a discussion. Know what? I just don’t think that rock cared. It just sat there, unmoving, oblivious to what I was trying to discuss. Looking closer, I didn’t see any ears, or anyway to pick up, “hear” audible speech. That rock apparently had no mechanism to hear, and probably doesn’t learn very fast, if at all. It just stayed there, being what it is, a rock. Nothing but a rock. Seems there are a lot of rocks scattered around this forum lately.

… I did my military service … I planted landmines …

AND THEN…

… I did my stint at the army, was not involved in any crimes against humanity that I know of …

Just WHO is gonna clean that up? How many children must become maimed or die? Thinking about all that ordinance laying around, just waiting for some poor soul to step on the wrong spot. Years from now… The controllers know, as long as the sheeple act out in that name of the great god of war, they can probably win the game of deceit. They cry out, “in the name of the war god !!!” We are merely tools for the few. And by the way, betcha that god, (whatever name you wanna call it), don’t give a damned about you, or me for that matter. To me, sadness, really a waste of precious “time”…

 

[anart]

You could've just asked me, you know...

To answer your questions:

- you are a bit paranoid, yes. I did my stint at the army, was not involved in any crimes against humanity that I know of

The Israeli occupation of Palestine IS a crime against humanity - so - yes, you were involved in crimes against humanity.

Even if there was, I'm not sure what it is you were suggesting: That I'm involved in a racially-fuelled Australian-Isaeli conspiracy to kill chickens?


Idan

Ahh, one so learned as yourself does not know the danger behind Avian flu - come, come, now Idan - since you've graced this forum with a visit, you could do better than that, no?

As far as the connections 'name' made above - I certainly cannot know and they certainly could be a stretch, but I find your presence here interesting, and just wanted to clarify your war crime status, since you seem to be unaware of the facts on the ground. Genocide is a war crime - the IDF is engaged in genocide, therefore you were involved in a crime against humanity.

 

[Z...]

- is there any relationship of the mycoplasma gallisepticum and what has become known as "avian flu" in popular parlance ? check the following to understand what i mean:

IMO it takes a big stretch of imagination as the avian flu is basically caused by avian influenca A (H5N1) virus which is a totally different kettle of fish.

But the role of mycoplasma in combination with influenza virus could be interesting.

 

[idan]

I tried talking to a rock one day. I must have talked for about five minutes, trying to engage a discussion. Know what? I just don’t think that rock cared. It just sat there, unmoving, oblivious to what I was trying to discuss. Looking closer, I didn’t see any ears, or anyway to pick up, “hear” audible speech. That rock apparently had no mechanism to hear, and probably doesn’t learn very fast, if at all. It just stayed there, being what it is, a rock. Nothing but a rock.

I'm not an expert on this matter, but I can try and suggest one or two things:
- Have you tried listening? Perhaps the rock was trying to speak, but didn't manage to get a word in.
- another alternative is that the rock wasn't chatty at that time. Perhaps you woke it up or something. Try again, you never know.

that's all I can offer on talking to rocks. I'm more the "talking to people" type, I'm afraid.

Just WHO is gonna clean that up? How many children must become maimed or die? Thinking about all that ordinance laying around, just waiting for some poor soul to step on the wrong spot. Years from now…

Answers:
- who's gonna clean that up? The same people who put it there, is usually the case in my experience. I did some mine-clearing as well.
- How many children must become maimed or die? None. The mines were placed up in the northern border (the part of it even Hizballa doesn't have any issue with). It's an uninhabited area, fenced off and clearly marked as is usually the case with minefields at borders. The nearest children are: a) some way away b) Israeli - actually, I've got family in the village nearest there c) going to have to be extremely determined to be blown up if they're going to get in there. It's quite a job
As far as I know there are no minefields in or near Palestinian territories.

 

[idan]

Ahh, one so learned as yourself does not know the danger behind Avian flu - come, come, now Idan - since you've graced this forum with a visit, you could do better than that, no?

As far as the connections 'name' made above - I certainly cannot know and they certainly could be a stretch, but I find your presence here interesting, and just wanted to clarify your war crime status, since you seem to be unaware of the facts on the ground. Genocide is a war crime - the IDF is engaged in genocide, therefore you were involved in a crime against humanity.

Well, as a matter of fact I do know the dangers behind avian flu - not very serious, as of now. People cannot transmit avian flu to each other, so the only people to get it were infected by cntact with birds. Perhaps, it will evolve and become more dangerous to people in the future - this is not a simple step for a virus so it might not happen at all,or it may happen but the infective strain turns out to be not as harmful....there are many possibilities to discuss (I told you it's an interesting subject :) )
Fortunately, so far it hadn't. At present there are many more diseases that are far more damaging (malaria, aids, etc.) and avian flu is still more of a scare than an actual threat.

As to my presence here (I'm not "gracing"anything - I'm simply here), that is easily explained: I googled myself (in order to send someone a link about an unrelated matter) and came across this mention of my name. there seeemed to be questions asked which I could answer,so I am. I can be asked to leave, if you find my presence disconcerting.

On the subject of war crimes:
there are several things we can discuss here. The first the legal status: former IDF personnel are not normally apprehended and charged with war crimes when abroad - I have friends all over the world who were in the IDF and no-one's prosecuting them. One of them's currently a law professor at Berkley, so I think people would've mentioned it to her at some point. I also have Palestinian friends here in Australia who know me and my personal history and are not pressing charges. So "on the ground" - well, what ground would that be, exactly?

second is the label "genocide", which I don't agree with. What's happening in the occupied territories is very bad indeed, but it isn't quite genocide in the regular sense of the word. But let's not quibble over definitions, as this sort of struggle over meanings of words never leads anywhere.

the third point relates to myself: as a person born in Israel (I had no say in this matter, naturally) at the age of 18 I was required BY LAW, like every healthy Israeli 18-year-old (who's not an ultraorthodox-and I'm not), to enlist in the IDF. therefore it follows that being born in Israel constitutes a war crime unless one is not physically healthy enough for the IDF to take you. To that charge I cannot object, since I did not at any point have a chioce in the matter.
This is a situation that I daresay you were not ever faced with, so feel free to judge me from the comfort of your home; were you placed in that situation I'm sure you would have done the noble thing and either refused to serve, thereby commiting yourself to a life of jail terms and social ostracism, or committed suicide. I wasn't as brave as you would have undoubtedly been.

The fourth and to me most important point is that in writing the article that started this discussion, I became one of the very few Israelies to publicly stand up and say to my peers "think about what you're doing; consider" - and for this I got labeled "traitor" from israeies", and "racist" from you guys. Kind of contradictory, isn't it? I guess everybody on all sides would've preferred that I shut up.

 

[anart]

Well, as a matter of fact I do know the dangers behind avian flu - not very serious, as of now. People cannot transmit avian flu to each other, so the only people to get it were infected by cntact with birds. Perhaps, it will evolve and become more dangerous to people in the future - this is not a simple step for a virus so it might not happen at all,or it may happen but the infective strain turns out to be not as harmful....there are many possibilities to discuss (I told you it's an interesting subject :) )

Yes, and there is quite a bit of evidence that certain parties are working quite hard to accelerate the 'panic' over the human to human transmission - fear mongering at its best.

As to my presence here (I'm not "gracing"anything - I'm simply here), that is easily explained: I googled myself (in order to send someone a link about an unrelated matter) and came across this mention of my name. there seeemed to be questions asked which I could answer,so I am. I can be asked to leave, if you find my presence disconcerting.

Not at all.

On the subject of war crimes:
there are several things we can discuss here. The first the legal status: former IDF personnel are not normally apprehended and charged with war crimes when abroad - I have friends all over the world who were in the IDF and no-one's prosecuting them. One of them's currently a law professor at Berkley, so I think people would've mentioned it to her at some point.

Of course they haven't - are you wholly unaware of why that is? Are you at all aware of the enormous number of UN resolutions against Israel that are vetoed by Israel's client state, the US? Certainly you are intelligent enough to realize that not being arrested for something does not mean a crime has not been committed? (Just look at the US administration)

I also have Palestinian friends here in Australia who know me and my personal history and are not pressing charges. So "on the ground" - well, what ground would that be, exactly?

On what grounds would they arrest you, considering my previous statement? The UN has no power to enforce International law when the US is consistently the only veto on the enormous amount of UN resolutions against Israel's actions in Palestine.

second is the label "genocide", which I don't agree with. What's happening in the occupied territories is very bad indeed, but it isn't quite genocide in the regular sense of the word. But let's not quibble over definitions, as this sort of struggle over meanings of words never leads anywhere.

So, what would be your definition of genocide? Israel is systematically destroying the occupants of Palestine - for no reason other than a desire for the land - genocide by any definition of the word. I sincerely challenge you to objectively prove that is not the case. (No malice intended at all by that challenge.)

the third point relates to myself: as a person born in Israel (I had no say in this matter, naturally) at the age of 18 I was required BY LAW, like every healthy Israeli 18-year-old (who's not an ultraorthodox-and I'm not), to enlist in the IDF.

Yes, I am very well aware of this fact - and it changes nothing. I was born in the United States and I have the blood of every innocent we have tortured, butchered, raped and unlawfully imprisoned on my hands - the only difference is that I actively refuse to participate in it and always have - yes, I know it is 'different' since I did not 'have to' (yet you write with such pride about being a 'career officer' - something is amiss).

therefore it follows that being born in Israel constitutes a war crime unless one is not physically healthy enough for the IDF to take you.

Actually, I'm sure it could be legally extrapolated that this is, in fact, true, since Israel has no right to that land - however, I do understand your 'I had no choice' defense - the Nazi soldiers used the same defense, actually.

This is a situation that I daresay you were not ever faced with, so feel free to judge me from the comfort of your home; were you placed in that situation I'm sure you would have done the noble thing and either refused to serve, thereby commiting yourself to a life of jail terms and social ostracism, or committed suicide. I wasn't as brave as you would have undoubtedly been.

I likely would have, actually - and I am not judging you, there idan - nice try, though - I am merely stating facts - facts are facts and if you are not comfortable with them, then that is unfortunate.

The fourth and to me most important point is that in writing the article that started this discussion, I became one of the very few Israelies to publicly stand up and say to my peers "think about what you're doing; consider" - and for this I got labeled "traitor" from israeies", and "racist" from you guys. Kind of contradictory, isn't it? I guess everybody on all sides would've preferred that I shut up.

Then that is good - that means that there may be more within you than 'I had no choice' and 'it is not genocide' and 'you would have done no different' - that means, idan, that despite your patrols, your planting of land mines, your dehumanizing Palestinians, that there may be more inside you than that. Of this, I am very glad - simply because you seem to be an intelligent fellow - an intelligent fellow with a conscience can make an enormous amount of difference in this increasingly sick world - so - that is important.

I happen to know other Israeli's who are 'intelligent fellows' with a conscious - and they recognize all I have written above - this is a sick, sick world in which we live and, at the end of the day, very little matters other than what we choose to do about it.

Thanks for your reply - sincerely.

 

[idan]

Yes, and there is quite a bit of evidence that certain parties are working quite hard to accelerate the 'panic' over the human to human transmission - fear mongering at its best.

Well, I'm not a fear-mongerer, so I can't answer for these parties. I've done my bit to state the facts as I see them in the book I've written - you can read it and see for yourself whether it sounds reasonable to you.

Of course they haven't - are you wholly unaware of why that is? Are you at all aware of the enormous number of UN resolutions against Israel that are vetoed by Israel's client state, the US? Certainly you are intelligent enough to realize that not being arrested for something does not mean a crime has not been committed? (Just look at the US administration)

Yes, I am aware of these. My opinion of this process is that just about all the parties involved on all sides of this debate are cynical or hyporcitical to a large extent. that's not the issue, though. Whether serving in the IDF SHOULD constitute a war crime is one question - one concerned primarily with justice. Your wording of "on the ground" suggested strongly that you were addressing whether serving in the IDF IS factually considered a war crime - a question of law. as it is, even in countries outside of the USA (europe, Australia...) there is no legal action taken. Again, we were discussing what IS, not what OUGHT to be, and that is what I answered about.

On what grounds would they arrest you, considering my previous statement? The UN has no power to enforce International law when the US is consistently the only veto on the enormous amount of UN resolutions against Israel's actions in Palestine.

Well, I'm not a lawyer but I assume that if a country says something is illegal, it has the power to enforce that within its borders, whatever the UN may say, so australia could have prosecuted me upon entry, or at least denied me an entry visa. As it is, Australian authoritiesasked for and were given my army record, but I still recieved a visa.

So, what would be your definition of genocide? Israel is systematically destroying the occupants of Palestine - for no reason other than a desire for the land - genocide by any definition of the word. I sincerely challenge you to objectively prove that is not the case. (No malice intended at all by that challenge.)

that's not too hard: Suppose you and I are joint rulers of Israel. We desire the land on which palestinians are living for our nefarious purposes. We have an army at our disposal while they have some small arms and explosives. If we want to "systematically destroy" the occupants, we would do just that - either by razing the area from the air, or with ground forces. In any case, not a soul would be left alive. Alternatively, if we were slightly more humane but still quite evil, we could round everybody up and send them across the border, which would then be sealed. Application of military force is not a problem in these cases.
The fact is that this is not being done. Of course there's an occupation, and there are indeed deaths, injuries, and atrocities going on on a daily basis -I'm not denying that and I'm against the whole thing. But genocide it ain't. Palestinians are still there, there are many more there than there were when the occupation began. I can't see how "genocide" can apply to a process in which the population undergoing it gets MORE numerous as time goes by.
I'll say again, just to stress the point, that I'm NOT justifying the occupation or what is going on in the territories. Just the "genocide" label. Theat labelling is damaging because it brands everyone regardless of opinion, and disregards the serious debate raging within Israeli society and politics about the Palestinian issue. Saying "you're all criminals" is not helping get to the desired solution of the problem.

Yes, I am very well aware of this fact - and it changes nothing. I was born in the United States and I have the blood of every innocent we have tortured, butchered, raped and unlawfully imprisoned on my hands - the only difference is that I actively refuse to participate in it and always have - yes, I know it is 'different' since I did not 'have to' (yet you write with such pride about being a 'career officer' - something is amiss).

Well, I think there is a difference (not a "difference" but a real difference) between not going up actively to enlist, and actively resisting an enforced draft. The first allows you to stay at home, the second has much more serious consequences. and in ethical matters,not taking the personal consequences into view is...well, let's say I don't think it's quite right.
If you want to put yourself on an equal footing, do something meaningful; any Israeli refusing service will face a serious change in his/her life. Do the same: go and volunteer in one of the international "anti-occupation" organisations and go to Palestine yourself (or a similar commitment to any other cause which will turn your life completely upside down and will force you to leave home for an extended period). THAT's commitment at the same level. Just sitting and acknowledging that you have "blood on your hands" isn't quite enough, at least for pronouncing unequivocal judgement on others.
you're welcome to stay at home and live your life as you want it to - bloody hands or not - but in that case try to be slightly less critical and more understanding towards other people's circumstances, whatever they may be.

regarding the "career officer" bit: A translation problem here - I don't write with "pride" about being a "career officer". Two points: the first is that the Hebrew word "keva" means "extended service" rather than "career officer". I wrote the article in hebrew, it was translated by someone else, who apparently didn't know quite how the IDF administration works. What happened, if you wish to know, is that I stayed on as an officer in the Israeli-Palestinain Joint Patrols, we were in charge of implementing - together- the then-new Oslo agreements on the, as it were, ground. that's how I got to know Tul-Karem and Hebron so well. The second point is the audience:I was writing - in hebrew - primarily to my fellow Israelies (the rest of you are welcome to read and comment, of course, but bear in mind the original recipients). To that audience, saying "I did my army stint" etc. is supposed to convey the message "I'm not coming from the outside to berate you; I know what it is to be like this and I'm trying to tell you there's another way" - which I think is a stronger statement than "you people should be ashamed of yourself".

Actually, I'm sure it could be legally extrapolated that this is, in fact, true, since Israel has no right to that land - however, I do understand your 'I had no choice' defense - the Nazi soldiers used the same defense, actually.

Well, I don't know about "no right to that land" because I don't know which bits you're referring to - a large part of Israel was legally bought from its previous owners, another part was decided by the UN to be the legal home of the people. The rest is, I agree, much more complicated.
thank you for understanding my defense. I, too, think that even the Nazi soldiers were mostly right in using that defense, as one cannot ethically accuse a man for avoiding a decision that will lead to his death. And indeed no one to my knowledge has prosecuted a german soldier for being one per se. The ones who were charged were the leaders and the ones who went beyond their duties to inflict pain and suffering.
If you were forced to enlist in an army, I think you'd pronounce yourself to be a VICTIM of the system, not a part of it, no?

I likely would have, actually - and I am not judging you, there Idan - nice try, though - I am merely stating facts - facts are facts and if you are not comfortable with them, then that is unfortunate.

Well, as I said,you're a very noble, self-sacrificing and ethical person, and I laud your potential actions. Lucky for you, we'll never know what you'd actually have chosen, so you're safe from doubt. I,by reason of my circumstances of birth, am not, and that is, indeed, unfortunate.

Then that is good - that means that there may be more within you than 'I had no choice' and 'it is not genocide' and 'you would have done no different' - that means, Idan, that despite your patrols, your planting of land mines, your dehumanizing Palestinians, that there may be more inside you than that. Of this, I am very glad - simply because you seem to be an intelligent fellow - an intelligent fellow with a conscience can make an enormous amount of difference in this increasingly sick world - so - that is important.

Well, since I was asked about my choices,genocide and landmines, that was what I referred to in my answers. It's not surprising that there's more to me than that - you can talk to me about any number of subjects (from biology and philosophy to the works of Led Zepplin and Neil Young) and discover - perhaps to your surprise - that landmines are not all there is to me, or for that matter to anyone.

I happen to know other Israeli's who are 'intelligent fellows' with a conscious - and they recognize all I have written above - this is a sick, sick world in which we live and, at the end of the day, very little matters other than what we choose to do about it.

True. I have chosen to move from my homeland and family; I have chosen to speak publicly, under my own name about this issue and face the derision of my people. What have you chosen to do, other than berate me, in a somewhat condenscending manner, anonymously on an internet forum?

 

[neema]

...
As to my presence here (I'm not "gracing"anything - I'm simply here), that is easily explained: I googled myself (in order to send someone a link about an unrelated matter) and came across this mention of my name.

Hi idan,

How did you go about in actually googling yourself? I only ask because its just the strangest thing, when I try to google your name I just can’t seem to find a single link that directs me to this forum. Perhaps it’s something on my end. I am assuming of course that googling yourself means you searched for the name: Idan Ben Barak?

 

[idan]

a small google search trick: if you're looking for something specific, you can put it in quotation marks. If you search for John Smith you get different, less exact results than looking for "John Smith". This difference also explains why I found this mention of my name only about a year after it has been posted - it's because I've never bothered to do it this way until now.


Do that and search in page 2 of the results. You know what, I'll be customer-focused - here it is:
_http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22idan+ben-barak%22&start=10&sa=N

Another , totally unrelated but useful google trick: if you need a definition of something, you can type:
define: something

and it will give you a stack of definitions of that something.

 

[anart]

Ahh, of course, I'm the evil 'bad guy' and you've lived a life of such honor ...

Idan, you have made enormous, and incorrect, assumptions about me and what I do or don't 'think about you'. This is not uncommon, but it is unwarranted, unnecessary and unfortunate in the context of this forum and how it operates.

You are also clearly not interested in the truth about the legality, or lack thereof, of Israel's actions. I have neither the time nor the inclination to try to speak logic to someone so emotionally invested in a lie. Your righteous indignation would be humorous if it weren't for what your country has done and is doing. As it stands, it is not humorous - it is repellent.

You have no idea about who I am or what I have done or what I do - that is fine, actually, considering who you are, I prefer it that way.

True. I have chosen to move from my homeland and family; I have chosen to speak publicly, under my own name about this issue and face the derision of my people.

Oh, poor, poor, pitiful Idan - how terribly sad for you. Sorry - no dice - you have (as most people do) done what best serves you, this is clear from your posting here - the 'truth' is nothing other than what serves you best, your 'actions' are nothing other than what serve you best. You truly seem to believe the things that you say here - or you are so good at it that it just seems that way. That is fine. This, also, is not uncommon, but clearly this forum is not for you.

 

[PepperFritz]

Idan:

I have read this thread with interest, and just wanted to try and explain to you why your posts are so out-of-place here, and leave such a ugly taste in the mouth. See, this forum is dedicated to observing and discussing objective reality, and whenever possible we try to cut down on the kind of subjective noise and manipulation that tends to obscure that reality. The forum's moderators are especially well trained in slicing through the BS, but even to a regular forum member of myself the dishonesty of your posts (whether conscious or unconscious) is rather obvious.

Your defence of your CHOICE to join the Israeli army as part of a combat unit, is self-serving in the extreme. An honest characterization of that choice would be to simply say "I wanted to serve the Israeli army in a combat unit because at the time I believed in the 'cause' my country was fighting for." Or "I did not believe in my country's 'cause', but at the time was not brave enough act in accordance with my beliefs/principles. I chose to become the potential killing tool of an genocidal occupying army rather than suffer the consequences (none of which were life-threatening) of doing otherwise." These statements any of us could have related to. But you do not provide an honest characterization. Instead you attempt to manipulate the facts and circumstances, and try to pull the wool over our (and maybe your own) eyes:

In order to minimize your responsibility for your own choice, you invent and/or exaggerate the "consequences" of making a different choice, to create the illusion that you really had NO CHOICE and are in fact a "victim":

...thank you for understanding my ["I had no choice"] defense. I, too, think that even the Nazi soldiers were mostly right in using that defense, as one cannot ethically accuse a man for avoiding a decision that will lead to his death.... I'm sure you would have done the noble thing and either refused to serve, thereby commiting yourself to a life of jail terms and social ostracism, or committed suicide....

Please. Death? Suicide? I've yet to hear of an Israeli citizen being executed for refusing to join the army, or committing suicide due to a lack of options. Suicide is in fact much more prevalent among Israeli soldiers than those who choose not to serve. A life of jail terms? Only for those few determined to make a political statement by making an overt refusal while still hanging on to citizenship. The fact is there are many choices available before it ever has to come to that. Just as in the U.S. and other countries, under Israeli law one can apply for Conscientious Objector status. If that fails, one can request to serve in a non-combat position. In the unlikely event that were to fail, one can ask to be exempted from serving on the West Bank and Gaza. So what does that leave? Oh yeah. Social ostracism. So? Give up your Israeli citizenship (which shouldn't be hard, considering how much you supposedly despise what your country is doing), move to another country. Wait a minute. You eventually DID move to another country. And you're happy now, yes? So how hard would it have been to do the same back then? Turns out, there really wouldn't have been very much in the way of serious "consequences" if you had refused to be a tool of you country's occupation and genocide. See how much clearer the picture becomes after you peel away the lies, half-lies, half-truths, and general manipulation?

Then, in order to minimize the truth of what your country is doing to the Palestinian people, you flippantly prevaricate on the legal technicalities of "war crimes" and "genocide"

...former IDF personnel are not normally apprehended and charged with war crimes when abroad - I have friends all over the world who were in the IDF and no-one's prosecuting them. One of them's currently a law professor at Berkley, so I think people would've mentioned it to her at some point. I also have Palestinian friends here in Australia who know me and my personal history and are not pressing charges.... What's happening in the occupied territories is very bad indeed, but it isn't quite genocide in the regular sense of the word. But let's not quibble over definitions, as this sort of struggle over meanings of words never leads anywhere....

Right. Like you don't know that "definitions" of "war crimes" and "genocide" are entirely dependent on who the perpetrator and victim are; who is doing the "defining"; and whose purpose the definition serves. But you're right. Let's not quibble, on that point we agree. Let's just call a war crime a war crime and an act of genocide an act of genocide, and stop pretending that what's going on in Israel/Palestine isn't really going on.

In other words, Idan, if you hope to have meaningful discussions on this form -- on any subject -- you're going to have to get real, and fast.