Mycoplasma: An Interesting Trail ?

[Ruth]

But if the purpose of the forum is to help people wake up, it may do the just the opposite if the response may be perceived of as an attack.

It really helps if someone has some knowledge of the WORK, but if one doesn't, the responses may really seem unjustifiably harsh.

I agree, treating the average unawake person like they are a monster or a psychopath can actually cause a person to start acting like one. Angry people will sometimes become a problem merely because they are emotionally reacting and not because they are consciously thinking things through.

In other words treating an individual like 'the enemy' will cause a loss of credibility, give easily led people the wrong idea and may even end up 'recruiting' for the other side. Especially if the initial accusations were inacurate or untrue.

A: It should be noted that the STS system can only be penetrated by becoming "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." There is nothing negative about networking. Details of a network include the necessity for those who are involved to invest "energy" in the exchange.

Not easy being that combination of serpent and bird.

 

[anart]

I have been pondering this issue for a very long time, that is, I've been wondering about the degree of responsibility an individual who is raised in a ponerized society has for his/her actions, and the psychic defense mechanism that the mind puts in place to protect the individual from fully comprehending the nature of his former actions.

During the natural course of daily events which take place in a ponorized society, the person who has the potential to be a decent human is conditioned to accept evil. How can such a person, living under the repressions that characterize such society. find an alternative example? Even if the example were found, where would he encounter the nurturing that would allow another world view to take root?

And supposing a person who has lived and acted under such a society is suddenly released from it, wouldn't it be natural for such a person to lie to himself about his past actions?

Of course it would - the vast majority of humanity is asleep - mechanical - they don't 'do' anything, they just react - they are responsible only to the extent that their reactions are their own and no more. However - that is not what this forum is for, is it?

Sometimes I find this forum to be somewhat harsh on people who stumble onto it for the first time.

Perhaps it would help to remember that this forum isn't for everyone - and it's not really for the vast majority of people who 'stumble up on it' - is it? The intention of the interaction on this forum, and what happens the vast majority of the time (though there are exceptions), is to GIVE WHEN ASKED - even, and especially, when it is uncomfortable or unpleasant to give.

Idan was not asking - at all - on any level - his cup is full. He did not come to this forum for the same reasons most people come to this forum. Through his posts here, that was crystal clear. He could not comprehend the openings he was given - that is fine - and quite common. Basically, he came here due to some rather tenuous connections put together by 'name' - and had no idea the context of the discussion- that is not Idan's 'fault' - but it is so.

I don't mind being called on it, until of course, someone strikes a nerve, (usually Anart), and I have to sit back and think about things more deeply. But I'm prepared to do that because I understand the intention behind the remark.

Well, without 'nerve striking' where would we be? ;) (it's no fun to go about 'striking nerves' by the way, but it is necessary if we are to awaken, if even a little bit) Do you see the point in your being prepared to think more deeply? That is the purpose of this forum - that's the point.

But if the purpose of the forum is to help people wake up, it may do the just the opposite if the response may be perceived of as an attack.

This forum serves a very, very specific purpose - to give when asked in a very, very specific way. It is not for everyone, and with very rare exceptions, there are no attacks - ever - and when they do occur they are taken care of quickly and the 'flow' restored.

Sleeping self-importance, however, sees things differently, it sees 'being attacked' - but this forum is not here for sleeping self-importance, is it?

It really helps if someone has some knowledge of the WORK, but if one doesn't, the responses may really seem unjustifiably harsh.

That's just my humble opinion.

And if they have no interest in the Work (knowledge of the Work is not really necessary, just sincere interest ) then why are they here? If this forum allowed a cacophonous environment filled with voices not even vaguely interested in the Work, what chance would there be for any Work at all?

Again - and always - there is the Law of Three - there is what is right, what is wrong, and the specific situation that determines which is which.

 

[webglider]

Thanks Anart for the time you spent answering my post. You've addressed each of my points.

wg wrote:
It really helps if someone has some knowledge of the WORK, but if one doesn't, the responses may really seem unjustifiably harsh.

That's just my humble opinion.

And if they have no interest in the Work (knowledge of the Work is not really necessary, just sincere interest ) then why are they here? If this forum allowed a cacophonous environment filled with voices not even vaguely interested in the Work, what chance would there be for any Work at all?

Again - and always - there is the Law of Three - there is what is right, what is wrong, and the specific situation that determines which is which.

I wasn't taking into consideration the aim of the forum. In thinking it over, I realize that much energy would be dissipated if the posts stray too far from the aim, with the danger that the aim itself could be forgotten.

webglider wrote:
But if the purpose of the forum is to help people wake up, it may do the just the opposite if the response may be perceived of as an attack.

I agree, treating the average unawake person like they are a monster or a psychopath can actually cause a person to start acting like one. Angry people will sometimes become a problem merely because they are emotionally reacting and not because they are consciously thinking things through.

In other words treating an individual like 'the enemy' will cause a loss of credibility, give easily led people the wrong idea and may even end up 'recruiting' for the other side. Especially if the initial accusations were inacurate or untrue.



session020622 wrote:
A: It should be noted that the STS system can only be penetrated by becoming "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." There is nothing negative about networking. Details of a network include the necessity for those who are involved to invest "energy" in the exchange.

Not easy being that combination of serpent and bird.

I don't think that Idan is, in essence, a bad or evil person. I think that he did the best he could on the forum given his background and history, and his unfamiliarity with the Fourth Way teachings.

I was in a Fourth Way group for several years where we were all actually physically present with one another. One of the teachers administered so many shocks to me to wake me from my self importance, sleep, and false personality, that I used to carry sunglasses to the class to wear when it was over so that people wouldn't see me cry on the street and subway. In addition to feeling devasted emotionally, I was furious and indignant for the unjust way I felt I was being treated. I felt that way even though I had read "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution", "In Search Of The Miraculous", witnessed the transformation that many of my fellow students achieved as they pursued their various aims, and experienced many joyous times, and attained insights which would have been impossible in any other context.

I left for two reasons: one was that my daughter needed me to be home, the second was 911 which filled me with such terror that I was afraid to go into the Manhattan to attend class, and the third was the energy drain I was experiencing dealing with a psychopathic boss. If I'm to be totally honest, I have to admit that some of it was that a lot of the criticism was, at that time, too hard to bear.

I am fortunate that I found this forum, and that I had prior experience.

So Idan's experience as he related them in his posts struck a chord with me. I don't think he really knew what he was dealing with here, and that he did the best he could with the background and knowledge he had.

I could empathize with the frustration he expressed in his final post:

idan wrote:
Well and good. Disregard my posts, or chuck out the whole thread if you want, as moderators do for wildly off-topic threads. you're the boss.
I will say this: all my life I have striven to be aware, awake, not sleepwalk through life, and to perceive reality in its fullness and wavering, bewildering complexity rather than as a set of rigid structures. I may have failed, and I may fail still; but I do not see around me in this forum any sign of a higher state of enlightenment or an encouregment or inspiration to acheive it. and that is sad.

I think it is sad and that's why I wrote the post.

 

[anart]

webglider, I find it interesting that you would repeat Idan's 'farewell jab' at this forum - as if you thought he was being sincere - as if you think that what he said is true. You do realize that he did not take the time to find anything in this forum other than the thread about him, correct? Did you realize that this section you have repeated above is a manipulative pity ploy? The 'frustration' you 'felt' was placed there - in its entirety - by you.

Had Idan been sincere, he would have taken the time and made the effort to find out what this forum is about - he would have found what so many other people find which is the most encouragement and inspiration to 'become' that they have ever found anywhere at any time.

Because he did not get his way, because he was not coddled, because his insults and veiled aggression were not allowed - he responded as above -- -- and you repeat it as if you found profound truth in it???



~that's either some of the strongest projection I've seen in quite a long time or something else is going on here ~ either way -

 

[webglider]

You do realize that he did not take the time to find anything in this forum other than the thread about him, correct? Did you realize that this section you have repeated above is a manipulative pity ploy? The 'frustration' you 'felt' was placed there - in its entirety - by you.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I really didn't see the manipulation. I do have a program that has brought me much unhappiness in my life which is to feel pity for those who are manipulative. Yes, you're right, if he were sincere, he would have searched further to understand the context in which the replies to his posts were made.

It's actions, not words, that show sincerity. I keep needing to learn that lesson over and over.

 

[name]

@Anart
Re my last post here, i can only say that, sadly, what you say is true. The everyday news make me more than sick, and people like Idan are the drop too much to me. He is or was apparently just a small cog in the genocide machinery of the IDF, and in theory he might even be quite a normal and basically agreeable guy, but that does not rest from his having been (by his own admission) involved in quite disgusting deeds. I dont know if you can find many people with family involved who feel different than me, perhaps you could find people who say it in another way. I would probably be sobbing all day if I was not shouting things out.

Re coming late, last time I was not aware until I wrote, this time I found some quite just now.

@Ruth
I would also be extremely upset if somebody treated me like that, but if I had been involved in things like what Idan said he was involved, I would not even try to defend such actions. And, re missing the 'real' ones, to me somebody who joined the IDF just because he wanted, and who then did what he said he did without a second thought, to me such a person qualifies with a high probability as 'real' - there are enough people refusing to serve, or who at the very least actually have second thoughts.

 

[genero81]

Interesting that I was thinking about the whole perceived feeling of being attacked or criticized just last night. I guess no one likes it to be pointed out to them that they are wrong. The forum is not for everyone, because the 'work' is not for everyone. According to my understanding thus far, mankind must evolve consciously from his current state if possible. It's not just knowledge that's needed but conscience and /or awakening a fuller emotional state of being. Those may be two ways of saying the same thing. Because one has begun to take responsibility for their continued evolution as a "hands on " (non mechanical) endeavor, their capacity to care about and love others combined with knowledge about their own psychological challenges, helps greatly in assisting them in SEEing whether there is, first of all the possibility of helping another, and secondly, how to best deliver that assistance when asked for. Making assumptions as fact, IS asking on a discussion forum.

My wife would often tell me things that seemed mean or unkind, in the sense that I felt attacked or criticized. But I would usually find out in due time that she was right.
And that would be of true value to me, because it gave me something I needed in order to grow as an individual. That is, if I made new choices based on that information. Changing old ways is usually a challenge, which is why even sincere members often fail at some point.

And then their are those who are simply here with an agenda. They are usually gone the quickest because some members have been here for years and have learned
the "modes" of those people, slick though they may be.

Personally, I take Anart at her word when she says that giving someone a reply that might rub them the wrong way is done with careful thought and consideration.

In my opinion, she is one who is a good example of what we are trying to work towards. I'm not saying she is perfect, but she's on the money most of the time and that is something, considering how often she provides that service.

If someone chooses not to stick around long enough to realize it's not really about attack but something they can most likely benefit from, if they meditate on it, and then make better choices as a result of seeing themselves a little better, then they most likely were not going to change anyway for whatever reason.

Idan's farewell post was a jab. Someone was stepping on his toes. That's all he needed to know. It seems self importance is usually first to take over one's thinking
when so 'callously treated.' (or so it seems) If one can simply get past that and consider what's been said, there's a darn good chance one's mind can be put to much better, and more fruitful use. That's been my experience so far. Try it. It may take longer to get to the good part, but self importance is a quick fix that's no fix at all.