Narrow Palate, Missing Teeth!

[Mgse]

Hello, everyone.

I'm looking for some non-invasive solutions to my dental problems that consist of a very narrow palate, missing teeth in the back of my lower jaw, remaining lower teeth moving inwards probably due to pressure of the upper ones (see the orthopantomogram attached, removed identity info), deviated septum (diagnosed by ENT doctor, now fixed by a chiropractor, a left septal ridge with obstructive effect still there; used to snore a lot, not sure now), bone fracture (trauma) in the lower jaw as teenager, my tongue fills like a "six-foot tiger in a three-foot cage" (quoting Dr. Felix Liao book title).

I've seen a few orthodontics and their solution is the standard one: surgery. I've wanted to avoid surgery at all costs and begun to look for non-invasive treatments like palate bone expanders (HomeoBlock, DNA or Vivos appliance). I've had quite a few exchanges with Dr. Belford (inventor of the HomeoBlock used also by James Nestor author of the book "Breath") but he passed away.

My take on it is to wear a palate bone expander appliance until 5-7 mm increase is obtained, teeth somehow realigned, then have at least two implants one on each side in the back of the lower jaw to decrease the pressure from the upper teeth and stop the lower teeth moving inwards. One doctor warned me, once implants are installed they are permanent meaning that orthodontic procedures aren't allowed anymore. The costs will be around 15K or more (6-10K for appliance, 2-4K for zirconia implants, 1K tests, X-rays etc).

It sounds great to have an oral appliance but some people haven't been so successful, like this guy with a Vivos appliance (obstructive case of sleep apnea, _The Vivos mRNA Appliance Tipped My Teeth and Didn’t Improve My Obstructive Sleep Apnea).

I'd like to hear your opinions and advices, your feedback is more than welcomed. I'll be 54 this year and I'm currently located in Europe (willing to travel to other parts of the world if needed).

Thank you

 

[nicklebleu]

What is the reason you absolutely want to avoid an operation?

I am not asking because I am PRO surgery. I don’t know much about orthodontics, whether by surgery or by spreader. But at your age it seems to me that all this sounds like a major ‘revamp’ of your oral cavity, and maybe the success rate might be higher with surgery?

 

[iamthatis]

I can't exactly tell from your description, but perhaps mewing may help? The idea is to use regular tongue pressure over an extended period of time to redistribute jaw pressure evenly. FWIW.

 

[Mgse]

What is the reason you absolutely want to avoid an operation?

I am not asking because I am PRO surgery. I don’t know much about orthodontics, whether by surgery or by spreader. But at your age it seems to me that all this sounds like a major ‘revamp’ of your oral cavity, and maybe the success rate might be higher with surgery?

We're talking about the oral cavity, would you want an operation? This is the place where breathing is regulated and one minor mistake could become a slow kill. Happened to my mother during an operation where left-overs were found after the anaesthesia, post-ops side effects are the primary complains of those operated. In one of my orthodontists visit, I asked the assistant (had this surgery) if she would do it again, she said no.

Yes, it is a major "revamp", maybe too late, but armed with tools and new developments in this area, I would definitely choose the non-invasive ones, if budget permits. At least, I could use this sleep device to help me sleep better that keeps the airflow going (Dr. Gabor Hermann, Budapest, _BETTER SLEEP SIMPLY - Mosoly és Egészség).

 

[Mgse]

I can't exactly tell from your description, but perhaps mewing may help? The idea is to use regular tongue pressure over an extended period of time to redistribute jaw pressure evenly. FWIW.

Thank you, iamthatis.

That's definitely part of my tools.

 

[hiker]

Hello, everyone.

I'm looking for some non-invasive solutions to my dental problems that consist of a very narrow palate, missing teeth in the back of my lower jaw, remaining lower teeth moving inwards probably due to pressure of the upper ones (see the orthopantomogram attached, removed identity info), deviated septum (diagnosed by ENT doctor, now fixed by a chiropractor, a left septal ridge with obstructive effect still there; used to snore a lot, not sure now), bone fracture (trauma) in the lower jaw as teenager, my tongue fills like a "six-foot tiger in a three-foot cage" (quoting Dr. Felix Liao book title).

I've seen a few orthodontics and their solution is the standard one: surgery. I've wanted to avoid surgery at all costs and begun to look for non-invasive treatments like palate bone expanders (HomeoBlock, DNA or Vivos appliance). I've had quite a few exchanges with Dr. Belford (inventor of the HomeoBlock used also by James Nestor author of the book "Breath") but he passed away.

My take on it is to wear a palate bone expander appliance until 5-7 mm increase is obtained, teeth somehow realigned, then have at least two implants one on each side in the back of the lower jaw to decrease the pressure from the upper teeth and stop the lower teeth moving inwards. One doctor warned me, once implants are installed they are permanent meaning that orthodontic procedures aren't allowed anymore. The costs will be around 15K or more (6-10K for appliance, 2-4K for zirconia implants, 1K tests, X-rays etc).

It sounds great to have an oral appliance but some people haven't been so successful, like this guy with a Vivos appliance (obstructive case of sleep apnea, _The Vivos mRNA Appliance Tipped My Teeth and Didn’t Improve My Obstructive Sleep Apnea).

I'd like to hear your opinions and advices, your feedback is more than welcomed. I'll be 54 this year and I'm currently located in Europe (willing to travel to other parts of the world if needed).

Thank you

Dr. Biju Krishnan does non-invasive dental arch widening in adults, by using e.g. HomeoBlock and ALF appliances; he is based in London. Perhaps you could get further information from his practice and if need be, they could possibly direct you to dentists with similar viewpoints closer to where you live.

Smile Transformations: Orthodontics, Arch Expansion, & Cosmetic Dentistry

Discover expert care in early-stage orthodontics, adult arch expansion, and cosmetic dentistry. Achieve a healthier, more confident smile with Dr. Biju Krishnan.

drbijukrishnan.co.uk

I have understood that dental arches, maxilla (upper jaw) and the dental alveolar bone on the mandible (lower jaw) are somewhat malleable even in adults, as they are formed by function. However, the body of the mandible's growth is driven mainly by genes, and if due to certain circumstances during the growth (mouth breathing, etc) the dental arches collapse/ become narrow, the mandible can become "stuck" and doesn't get to grow to its full potential. This can cause sleep apnea, TMD, etc.

Upper williams - CFOO

cfoo.com

There is a great deal of controversy within the profession as to the success or failure of arch development, sometimes mistakenly referred to as arch expansion. It is this author’s opinion that this subject is well addressed in the text by Enlow and Hans entitled “Essentials of Facial Growth” published by Saunders, ISBN 0-7216-6106-8.

The following observations are clearly stated in this text:

1. The body of the maxilla, as well as the dental alveolar base upon the maxilla, is comprised of dermal bone which has developed from the ectoderm. Dermal bone growth is primarily driven by function, not by genes.

2. The body of the mandible is comprised of chondral bone which has developed from the mesoderm. Chondral bone growth is primarily driven by genes, not by function.

3. The dental alveolar base upon the mandible is dermal bone and thus effected by function not by genes.

Sometimes surgery seems to be needed though, to match the too-short mandible with the upper dental arch (that has been expanded with an appliance), in cases where facial development is considerably lacking, and so forth. But yeah, like with any surgery, there are always risks involved. (A side note: watching Mike Mew's videos on youtube, I have gathered that the patient should always be mewing (holding the tongue against the palate) after surgery, as otherwise the results could relapse to a degree.)


I'll add some links below that you might find interesting (in case you haven't come across them while researching).


A good article about the issue:

Is it Mental or is it Dental?

🖨️ Print post Cranial & Dental Impacts on Total Health Translations: Spanish Dr. Raymond Silkman has a private practice in holistic dentistry and orthodontics in West Los Angeles, […]

www.westonaprice.org

Ron Ead has had his maxilla expanded with an MSE (maxillary skeletal expander; a fixed expander where a minor surgery is performed in the palate), and here he reflects on the pros and cons of a full-blown MMA (maxillomandibular advancement) surgery.
(Btw, he isn't too hot on expanding the arches with appliances only. I guess an MSE will do the expanding more quickly and bring somewhat larger gains, but a skilled dentist should be able to acquire advancements with the functional appliances too.)

A possible non-surgical way to improve sleep apnea, by training one's expiratory muscles.

Good luck!

 

[Mgse]

Thank you, Hiker, excellent info.

 

[Yupo]

I was treated with a palate expansion device when I was 10 years old. I found it to be a horrendously painful process. I'd think the process would feel even worse now, doing it as a very mature adult. But less invasive probably means less risk. Is it necessary to even do this?
When you start changing things, other things get changed too. You might find yourself needing to fix more than you bargained for.

 

[Mgse]

I was treated with a palate expansion device when I was 10 years old. I found it to be a horrendously painful process. I'd think the process would feel even worse now, doing it as a very mature adult. But less invasive probably means less risk. Is it necessary to even do this?
When you start changing things, other things get changed too. You might find yourself needing to fix more than you bargained for.

I think that science and technology have improved since you're 10 years old and I agree that when changing things others will get changed too, hopefully for the better. Being a mouth breathing (snored a lot) isn't a good thing and missing at least four teeth (two on each side) in the back of the lower jar isn't helping at all either with digesting the food (difficulty chewing).

Having those missing teeth for more than 35 years, chewing put a lot of pressure on the lower ones left and they've started to move inwards which also changed my speech and tongue fills like in a cage and tends to move in the back when parked and restricts somehow the airflow during the night. The solution here obviously for me is to have at least two implants in the back to ease the pressure and stop the inward movement.

My aim is to somehow realign the entire mouth into a proper position (expanding a bit the upper palate if possible), then install the implants.

 

[gottathink]

Hi Mgse,
I have spent the past 15 years correcting a narrow palate and twist in my oral facial bones using visualisation techniques. This deformity my brother has also but his is worse. He was treated with a palate expander and braces when he was a teenager but it did not work. In me the problem was less and not so obvious, but I had a cross bite and my eyes were not level. Also, my sphenoid bone was twisted which I could feel when having cranial osteopathic treatments. Additionally, I could not breathe at all through my left side nasal cavity and my left side of my ribs and lung would never expand. My lung volume respiratory tests were very poor. As a child I adapted with high levels of anaerobic fitness but poor aerobic capacity. I have corrected nearly all of this and my breathing is much much better.

No matter what else you decide to do I think these visualisations could be useful.
I began first with imagining my upper palate expanding. So just try to get a sense of what your palate and teeth feel like and connect with it. Then imagine it expanding. I also retracted my bottom jaw and held it there, then flattened my tongue using Mewing to the roof of my mouth and checked that both sides were activating fully. What happens is that my bones feel like they are being pushed apart from the contractions in my fascia tissues. It’s like I’m flowing energy into the bones and directing it remould. It’s a strong very physical sensation. Then you want the energy to remain and the strength of the contraction to settle which allows bones to move. Do this by focusing on nasal and square breathing. When I get to this point, I hear popping in my ears and feel the bones actually shift.

I continue to work through my entire cranial system and I have just just gotten to the point where my sleep is improved. Hallelujah! I also take boron to assist with bone remodelling, have reduced oxalates in my diet, treated a chronic fungal low grade sinus infection with baking soda nebulisation, and finally have started doing Eriu Eriolis breathing exercises. I could not do the pipe breathing techniques previously as it caused me to feel like I was choking. I have also done a lot of weight training and worked hard at developing symmetry in my musculoskeletal skeletal system to support changes in my cranial system.

This has been a decade and a half of work, the visualisations I have done every (yes every night for hours on end) night when I am lying awake not being able to sleep. This has allowed me to eventually get some sleep. It’s been worth it. I wonder if in your case these techniques would support other treatments enabling a palate expander device to actually work quite well?

I think my experience with this problem has led me into my professional work in musculoskeletal therapy and chronic pain rehabilitation.
I am very interested in what you think about these ideas and techniques as I only briefly mentioned it in the forum a few years ago and have wondered if other people can engage with it for their own self healing.

 

[Mgse]

Hi Mgse,
I have spent the past 15 years correcting a narrow palate and twist in my oral facial bones using visualisation techniques. This deformity my brother has also but his is worse. He was treated with a palate expander and braces when he was a teenager but it did not work. In me the problem was less and not so obvious, but I had a cross bite and my eyes were not level. Also, my sphenoid bone was twisted which I could feel when having cranial osteopathic treatments. Additionally, I could not breathe at all through my left side nasal cavity and my left side of my ribs and lung would never expand. My lung volume respiratory tests were very poor. As a child I adapted with high levels of anaerobic fitness but poor aerobic capacity. I have corrected nearly all of this and my breathing is much much better.

No matter what else you decide to do I think these visualisations could be useful.
I began first with imagining my upper palate expanding. So just try to get a sense of what your palate and teeth feel like and connect with it. Then imagine it expanding. I also retracted my bottom jaw and held it there, then flattened my tongue using Mewing to the roof of my mouth and checked that both sides were activating fully. What happens is that my bones feel like they are being pushed apart from the contractions in my fascia tissues. It’s like I’m flowing energy into the bones and directing it remould. It’s a strong very physical sensation. Then you want the energy to remain and the strength of the contraction to settle which allows bones to move. Do this by focusing on nasal and square breathing. When I get to this point, I hear popping in my ears and feel the bones actually shift.

I continue to work through my entire cranial system and I have just just gotten to the point where my sleep is improved. Hallelujah! I also take boron to assist with bone remodelling, have reduced oxalates in my diet, treated a chronic fungal low grade sinus infection with baking soda nebulisation, and finally have started doing Eriu Eriolis breathing exercises. I could not do the pipe breathing techniques previously as it caused me to feel like I was choking. I have also done a lot of weight training and worked hard at developing symmetry in my musculoskeletal skeletal system to support changes in my cranial system.

This has been a decade and a half of work, the visualisations I have done every (yes every night for hours on end) night when I am lying awake not being able to sleep. This has allowed me to eventually get some sleep. It’s been worth it. I wonder if in your case these techniques would support other treatments enabling a palate expander device to actually work quite well?

I think my experience with this problem has led me into my professional work in musculoskeletal therapy and chronic pain rehabilitation.
I am very interested in what you think about these ideas and techniques as I only briefly mentioned it in the forum a few years ago and have wondered if other people can engage with it for their own self healing.

Thank you, gottathink.

I'm all in for any non-invasive techniques or procedures, that's a great idea to start doing it when falling asleep (in my case it takes longer). But some physical obstacles like my left septal ridge with obstructive effect could be corrected by an ENT doctor which it will increase the airflow on the left nostril.

Mewing is the tool I'm using right now...

 

[Breo]

I only briefly mentioned it in the forum a few years ago and have wondered if other people can engage with it for their own self healing.

This is very inspiring. I will start implenting these suggestions as I have different symptoms in this area (dental/jaws/sinuses) To strengthen and widen bones like this is such a good idea. Thank you for sharing your approach.

 

[gottathink]

I'm all in for any non-invasive techniques or procedures, that's a great idea to start doing it when falling asleep

I will start implenting these suggestions as I have different symptoms in this area

Please would you both let me know how it goes? I can elaborate further also, perhaps we can discover some things together.

 

[Mgse]

Please would you both let me know how it goes? I can elaborate further also, perhaps we can discover some things together.

Sure, I'll keep you up to date.

 

[Breo]

Please would you both let me know how it goes? I can elaborate further also, perhaps we can discover some things together.

I happily will do. I just started watching the Mew videos. This method is new to me and I started to practice. I thought of now implementing your approach and learning to mew and I´ll report back, when I notice some changes.

I have different areas in the scull which are sometimes inflamed, the sinuses, and also a not correct placed dental implant. From that I got chronic ostitis. Extraction would have involved complex bone transplant next to the sinuses. Throughout the last 4 years, I managed to consistently calm the area: my labs (Rantes score) are ok now. The dental surgeon scratched his head a little :) as he was eager to transplant. Among supplementing, I used DMSO and Borax topically, sometimes as a mouthwash too. Lately I am cleaning face, nose, ears and also teeth :) with a very pure whitish olive oil soap, (which I got at a local market.) It does not taste soapish, more neutral, and to my surprise, it works well, has a calming and healing effect. My gums seem to be getting healthy.

And then there is the area of the neck that still often is sore and tensed. After now regularly doing Laura´s amazing meditations and also the past life meditation, just some days ago, this scull and upper neck area all of a sudden loosened with three little muscle "plops" There was a strong inflow of energy, lift of mood and I also felt that my palate was opening and widening.

As I have some background in bioenergetic bodywork, I am looking forward to continue with trying your approach.
One question, you refer to square breathing. Is it the same as box breathing, 4x4?