Need to Get Some Stuff off my Chest

[Nienna]

Actually, it's been like this for a VERY long time.

Maybe you are realizing, or seeing it "everywhere" just now?

Yes, it has been everywhere. But, for the most part, things have been basically centered on the U.S. and the U.K. There has been this small kernal of hope that maybe some small place was still free of the ponerization process. Then, when France was taken over by Sarkozy, it was like all hope was lost. All the atrocities going on in the world came crashing down around my ears. A flood of sorrow for those who are suffering the death, destruction and despair, as well as for those who are so ignorant and ponerized that they cannot see it for what it is. I was overwhelmed with sorrow. And it seemed to be bottled up inside. Stuck. I had hit a wall.

And this next, is offered gently: I hope you do not recover you ability to "let words flow" in the context you mention. Maybe they were just an automatic response within a constrained perception to begin with. (Only you know what feeds the need to write anything).

I am not sure that I follow you on this. I have been feeling a LOT of negative emotions lately. The reason is obvious. And I have been trying to use that energy to write comments on the SotT articles, or on blogs, etc. And I became so overwhelmed that I just couldn't seem to write anything that could begin to get across the "terror of the situation" that I was feeling. There were no words appropriate enough to convey what I was feeling. And, would it even help?

Tell me, Azur, do you never feel the hopelessness of the situation that we are facing, ever? Do you not, once in a while, say, "My god, this ponerization has gone so far, is so great and so huge; how are we going to do anything against THAT?" If not, I have to say that I do not know what to think. For me, I had hit that wall. I needed to "talk" to people who are aware of what is going on.

Expressing outrage has many facets, but ultimately has a one root for every outburst. Outrage can be expressed with the unconscious want to garner attention of others, sometimes objectively as a warning, and other times as a personal safety mechanism for the psyche. Safety in numbers that others see it too, even when they do not do anything, may create a false comfort zone. In short, a "buffer".

If it seemed that this was an outburst of outrage, then I apologize, as that is not how I meant it. It was more a crying out from sorrow. I was lost for a moment and was hoping that I could find myself again with the help of friends. Which it seems is exactly what is happening. And I thank you all for this.

What I mean by this is that the unease that lead many to search out to find answers outside of "normal" realms of common thought (as, for example, those that end up here), may at first be eased by simply seeing that it is a shared feeling. And thus lies a subtle trap by associative acknowledgment: that others have searched beyond where many, many others do not, and therefore it is a validation of sorts.

No, I am not looking for validation, or for someone else to carry on with anything. It was more a cry of deep sorrow and anguish.

Personaly i thank you Lynne for sharing. I feel exactly the same. What i do sometimes when i feel like this (not all times unfortunately) i push me to write something, to read as much and vote, to translate one more word, as if to win over the fear, a tiny winning over what goes on.

This is what, I too, have been doing. However, for some reason, I was so overcome with sorrow and hopelessness that nothing that I would try to write seemed adequate, and I would just erase it. I was doing this over and over and over again. Nothing would come out that seemed to fit the situation. I was overwhelmed, probably with negative emotions, and just couldn't get the old intellect to function. osit.

One thing that keeps me going is the idea that somehow I chose to be here in this mess, or I am 'supposed' to be here, to do whatever I will do, or for some unfathomable reason that I don't yet understand, but that I am participating in.

Very good, Vin, and thanks. I think this is something that I must keep in mind at all times.

where sharing is a means to buffer, to make yourself feel better about something even when that feeling was completely justified and this "something" is not actually being changed, only the feeling is. Lynne, I think it would help for you to simply consider this, and honestly question whether you're doing this to any degree.

Am I trying to make myself feel better? I would have to say no. This was something that I felt I had to write or I would blow-up. I was at a place where nothing I could write was adequate, and at the same time, I had things that needed to be said in order to get it out of my system. I chose like-minded people to do this with, because they would be able to relate to what I was saying, or so I was thinking. Do I feel better? Not about the shape the world is in, but in being able to talk about this stuff with people who really care about the same things helps to sort things out, as is happening now. This feedback, to help me think things through.

Saying that I wanted to get some things off my chest was maybe the wrong terminology. Maybe I should have said that I needed to get this out of my system. This deep sorrow. To write about it, to put it into words. Does that make sense?

But that's not even correct, for I still feel the sorrow, the pain; it's just not so overwhelming.

There is much food for thought here. And networking is what we are here for. You ALL have helped me out immensely. I thank you again for your considerations.

If I still don't seem to be getting it, or not making myself clear enough, let me know. There is much work to be done, both on myself and outside myself. ;)

 

[Azur]

Actually, it's been like this for a VERY long time.

Maybe you are realizing, or seeing it "everywhere" just now?

Yes, it has been everywhere. But, for the most part, things have been basically centered on the U.S. and the U.K. There has been this small kernal of hope that maybe some small place was still free of the ponerization process.

You missed my point here when I said it has always existed. Ponerization, as a term, might be new, but the process has ALWAYS existed. The Nazis didn't discover it, they were only the first to apply it, by side effect, on a more massive scale. But the potential of the effect has ALWAYS been present in EVERY human group, in ALL of history. To think otherwise, you'd have to have an indication that humans underwent a change in their physiology at some point in time.

Tell me, Azur, do you never feel the hopelessness of the situation that we are facing, ever? Do you not, once in a while, say, "My god, this ponerization has gone so far, is so great and so huge; how are we going to do anything against THAT?" If not, I have to say that I do not know what to think. For me, I had hit that wall. I needed to "talk" to people who are aware of what is going on.

If you are asking me if I have ever felt the total futility of trying to change the external World, the answer is "yes". But I went through a lot of trouble to understand why it is futile. More than I can ever possibly describe with words. Couple this with a strong, strong empathy that has been evoked by every little observation of people living under unnecessary duress, too busy "making a living", (amongst all other self delusions) that I had to find out if this feeling was a defect (an imposition, a perception that was errant) and I can tell you that I found myself in Hell. I did "give it up" for almost 20 years in the face of hopelessness, and then I started to understand that this was another form of sleep.

"Busy" work, or convincing yourself that what you are doing, in anything, is "gonna change" the World is a reaction to not understanding the futility, and is only another way of masking the horror, in some (if not all) cases. You can have two people working, say in a hospice, one will be trying to "save all the sick people", while the other will know that you cannot save all the people but is doing so anyway, because it is a good thing to do. The difference here is VERY important. The latter will have understood the utter futility of the situation, but do what they can, while not being under any illusion that they are changing anything (except on a micro scale with the actors involved!). The former is doing it for themselves, while the latter is doing the only thing that can be done to serve, despite the futility of it.

This might, at first blush, seem odd, but the difference in the example above comes down to understanding the reality facing you, and as important, energy conservation. (And by energy conservation, I mean all the wasted "thought loops", emotional railing at an unfair system, at the pervasive futility of the current state of Man, etc, at why it came to be, described by theories, and suppositions that cannot be immediately verified, and the realization that there's not much that can be done with such a stacked deck, if those theories are assumed to be true). The individuals working the hospice are both doing the same "action" as observed from outside, but only the latter will truly know why, and most likely not burn themselves out tilting at windmills. "This place is terrible", indeed.

Expressing outrage has many facets, but ultimately has a one root for every outburst. Outrage can be expressed with the unconscious want to garner attention of others, sometimes objectively as a warning, and other times as a personal safety mechanism for the psyche. Safety in numbers that others see it too, even when they do not do anything, may create a false comfort zone. In short, a "buffer".

If it seemed that this was an outburst of outrage, then I apologize, as that is not how I meant it. It was more a crying out from sorrow. I was lost for a moment and was hoping that I could find myself again with the help of friends. Which it seems is exactly what is happening. And I thank you all for this.

No need to apologize to me or anyone! It may have been an outburst of sorrow, and by extension outrage, but it is important nonetheless. In fact, it means you have seen something wrong here, and as bittersweet as it is, it is real. For what it's worth, it was well received, with a tear in my eye, too. I know that pain, and it is terribly beautiful in the growth that it portends, if that growth potential doesn't get subsumed by some factor or factors, i.e. a step in buffer.

where sharing is a means to buffer, to make yourself feel better about something even when that feeling was completely justified and this "something" is not actually being changed, only the feeling is. Lynne, I think it would help for you to simply consider this, and honestly question whether you're doing this to any degree.

Am I trying to make myself feel better? I would have to say no. This was something that I felt I had to write or I would blow-up. I was at a place where nothing I could write was adequate, and at the same time, I had things that needed to be said in order to get it out of my system. I chose like-minded people to do this with, because they would be able to relate to what I was saying, or so I was thinking. Do I feel better? Not about the shape the world is in, but in being able to talk about this stuff with people who really care about the same things helps to sort things out, as is happening now. This feedback, to help me think things through.

Saying that I wanted to get some things off my chest was maybe the wrong terminology. Maybe I should have said that I needed to get this out of my system. This deep sorrow. To write about it, to put it into words. Does that make sense?

But that's not even correct, for I still feel the sorrow, the pain; it's just not so overwhelming.

And this paragraph of yours here, is what I am concerned about, as mentioned in my original post.

I see something that may not be there and only you will know, but I recognize a (probable) pattern here because I have have been there before.

It may not apply to you, and is offered for your consideration. (No answers or rebuttals necessary, unless you feel the need, these thoughts are only offered for your consideration. As I said before, only YOU will know).

Cheers. And God speed.

P.S. I spoke here much about futility, and it should not be misconstrued that I am saying that any action is a waste of time. By futility, I mean that there is no direct feedback that lets us know if what we do has an effect (whether a specific effect was expected, or not). We can only do, and choose to do the thing we feel is right (with greater and greater understanding of those actions!), and observe as things go along, and hopefully with an internal understanding of why we have a preference to an outcome. Individuals grow on their own schedule, this cannot be forced. But it seems to be that human nature only sees a possibility when someone else shows them such a possibility exists (in general). I think this is what has been exploited by a few well coordinated groups. But this also works for everybody. All one can really do is bring to light the possibilities. What others choose in full (or lesser) knowledge is their thing.

 

[Pierre]

That's a very interesting topic that seems to address a major step of the Work where lower emotional center activity can be transmutated into higher centers activity. Thanks Lynne for bringing it up.

We recently experienced an example of how this kind of process can materialize thanks to the support of a group.

Sarkozy election is a tragic event, you can imagine how terrible it is for the French members of the group (and for any citizen of the world)

I guess we all feel concerned with the dramas of the world : tortures, wars, starvings,... but usually our blindness prevents us from being objectively in touch with these dramas.

Our induced reactions become different when the same dramas happen in front of our door.

So Sarkozy was about to become president and it triggered a strong activity of the lower emotional center, a mix of fear, anger, hopelesness, disappointment,...

Most of us would have certainly been overhelmed by those feelings, at least I would have. But here came one of the strength of our group.

First a strong support and some objective analysis were shared. It helped us to take some distance and to start expressing what we felt, giving some analysis to the situation, collecting and sharing some datas.

Then Laura and other members started hinting that this post or that post could be made public through an article, maybe it could be a good idea to create a blog dedicated to what is currently happening,...

Thus progressively a creative collective dynamics materialized, several members contributed : creating a blog, writing articles, writing comments, referencing the blog,...

The impact of the blog, if there is any, is quite unmeasurable. But we keep the hope that sometimes butterflies flapping their wing can have some unexpected effects.

Whatever the outcomes are, the group helped us to go behind ruminating negative emotions and trying to find some creative solutions.

 

[Alana]

I'd like to add something here... as i currently see things, not saying that they won't change.

If we continue living and learning and doing the best we can to gather all these knowledge that all these remarkable people before, and now, have put out for us who sought for it to find and to apply in our lives, everything within will never stay the same, everything will continue changing. And there is "time" for everything. And perhaps each person will need their own "time" to grieve for the loss of our illusions. I think it is a part of the process to mourn for the life we lived and the years we spend unaware that everything was a lie: ourselves, our relationships the world around us. And there is the mourning for the future we planned but the reality we see, we know it, won't allow it to happen. It is the mourning of death, as everything we knew is dying within and around us.

There are 5 stages in grief identified by Kübler-Ross:
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

In most situations, the first and last are usually first and last, but the ones in the middle can change position. And we have each other here to make sure that we don't get stack at one.

To Do what needs to be done to share the information is vital, but sometimes, THAT can be a buffer for not realizing the terror of the situation, inner and outer. at least, I have gone through this, running like crazy to do as much as possible, feeding the moving center with emotional energy, anything as long as i did not feel the horrible feelings. Not that i stopped doing it or that i won't do it again. At least now i can identify it .... sometimes. One tiny step on a huge staircase -osit.

 

[Azur]

Thank you for sharing that, Irini.

You've captured my original thoughts here with your words and understanding more eloquently than I did.

Cheers.

 

[Nienna]

Please bear with me here. Talking these things through is how my understanding grows. ;)

You missed my point here when I said it has always existed. Ponerization, as a term, might be new, but the process has ALWAYS existed. The Nazis didn't discover it, they were only the first to apply it, by side effect, on a more massive scale. But the potential of the effect has ALWAYS been present in EVERY human group, in ALL of history. To think otherwise, you'd have to have an indication that humans underwent a change in their physiology at some point in time.

Yes, I did miss your point. But I am aware of what you are saying. Ponerization has been here, well can I really say "always"? But at least for a very, very long time.

"Busy" work, or convincing yourself that what you are doing, in anything, is "gonna change" the World is a reaction to not understanding the futility, and is only another way of masking the horror, in some (if not all) cases. You can have two people working, say in a hospice, one will be trying to "save all the sick people", while the other will know that you cannot save all the people but is doing so anyway, because it is a good thing to do. The difference here is VERY important. The latter will have understood the utter futility of the situation, but do what they can, while not being under any illusion that they are changing anything (except on a micro scale with the actors involved!). The former is doing it for themselves, while the latter is doing the only thing that can be done to serve, despite the futility of it.

My intent is not to save the world. I am only trying to get the information out there to those who are interested in it, and only in a small way at that. I do what I can do. Trying to force people to see things the way I do, if they do not want to see things this way, is not what I am trying to do, either. That is abridging their free will. Everyone is entitled to see things as they want. But I would like to be able to get information out to those who are waking up and looking for this information.

But, I repeat, I am not "trying to save the world". That is unrealistic and just plain wrong.

Lynne wrote:

SAO wrote:

where sharing is a means to buffer, to make yourself feel better about something even when that feeling was completely justified and this "something" is not actually being changed, only the feeling is. Lynne, I think it would help for you to simply consider this, and honestly question whether you're doing this to any degree.

Am I trying to make myself feel better? I would have to say no. This was something that I felt I had to write or I would blow-up. I was at a place where nothing I could write was adequate, and at the same time, I had things that needed to be said in order to get it out of my system. I chose like-minded people to do this with, because they would be able to relate to what I was saying, or so I was thinking. Do I feel better? Not about the shape the world is in, but in being able to talk about this stuff with people who really care about the same things helps to sort things out, as is happening now. This feedback, to help me think things through.

Saying that I wanted to get some things off my chest was maybe the wrong terminology. Maybe I should have said that I needed to get this out of my system. This deep sorrow. To write about it, to put it into words. Does that make sense?

But that's not even correct, for I still feel the sorrow, the pain; it's just not so overwhelming.

I am feeling really dense here. I know I must be missing something huge. But I just don't understand what I am missing.

Okay, so by me discussing how really horrible all of what is going on in the world is, am I actually trying to make myself feel better (create a buffer) by doing this?

Here's how I perceived what I was doing? The more and more that I had been reading, the more the emotions and the "terror of the situation" was building in me. I was not running around trying to convert anyone. I was wanting to continue doing what I had been doing which was commenting on articles that I had read, but the whole of what I wanted to say was more than what each article was talking about.

So I decided to just write something that said all of the things that I was feeling. Just to say them. And not to those who don't want to know these things, but to people who feel the same way about these things as I do.

I am trying to put myself back into the frame of mind I was in at the time. Was I trying to make myself feel better? Well, in a way, maybe I was because I was saying what I felt I needed to say. There were so many things jumbling up together inside of me that I just had to put them all together and say them. To write them out. I had all of these negative emotions roiling around inside of me and I wanted to do something with them. So I put them into words and typed them out. It didn't really matter to me if anyone wrote anything in return. (Although it's nice you all did have things to say.) I just felt like putting things out there for anyone to read who felt like it. Whether they thought it was good or bad made no difference to me. It was just there. I can explain it no other way right now.

I think it is a part of the process to mourn for the life we lived and the years we spend unaware that everything was a lie: ourselves, our relationships the world around us. And there is the mourning for the future we planned but the reality we see, we know it, won't allow it to happen. It is the mourning of death, as everything we knew is dying within and around us.

And maybe this is what I was doing. Mourning, definitely.

 

[Azur]

I am feeling really dense here. I know I must be missing something huge. But I just don't understand what I am missing.

Okay, so by me discussing how really horrible all of what is going on in the world is, am I actually trying to make myself feel better (create a buffer) by doing this?

Lynne,

Essentially my point is/was this: commiseration should not be the end point, or end game of your newly "released" (or unconscious self-directed) energies.

Sounds obtuse, I know, but think on it, you'll see it, I think you are already closing in on it.

 

[Rich]

And maybe this is what I was doing. Mourning, definitely.

maybe loneliness too? being around others in a day-to-day setting but still being lonely in being unable to really connect with them on the same level that they would understand?

in thinking about how we each come to terms with the reality of our world, this thread of yours Lynne reminded me of when Gurdjieff talks about an individuals chief fault (from ISOM):

The study of the chief fault and the struggle against it constitute, as it were, each man's individual path, but the aim must be the same for all. This aim is the realisation of one's nothingness. Only when a man has truly and sincerely arrived at the conviction of his own helplessness and nothingness and only when he feels it constantly, will he be ready for the next and much more difficult stages of the work

my own process has been (and is) similarly reading as much as i can and (often unknowingly) trying to formulate what the main block, sacred cow or 'buffer' was. I was coming up against frustrations, couldn't do this own my own and had my own blurt or cry for help on the forum- the focus was relationships but i think the outcome is the same whatever topic takes up someones main focus: the help on this forum was like looking into the mirror and helped me put things into perspective and move forward with purpose out of the quagmire. IMO there is much truth in the quote above from G, it doesn't really matter how we get on the right path as long as we do.