Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP)

[Kisito]

I think all weapons can be dangerous , it does not mean that we should move away. PNL is inseparable from hypnosis. We certainly can be manipulated by evil people, but we are already in our genetic manipulated until and society . PNL as hypnosis can help us remove our reflexes , our illusions and beliefs " illusory". It is a way to change the path of neuronal synapses . These are only information . By changing the connection of synapses by our thoughts, can be an unpleasant thing becomes enjoyable. " All our knowledge comes from our feelings and sensation varies depending on the individual , so the man is the measure of all things, it is through him that they are or are not "Protagoras" . It can certainly be manipulated by a bad person, but we can more easily manipulate us ourselves. So it would be better to learn to identify adverse manipulators. "Knowledge protects" .

 

[axj]

The thing is that we can decide consciously not to use the technique, what about our subconscious? Putting such a weapon in the hands of the predator mind as long as we haven't completely controlled it (will it even happen?) can be an auto-sabotage from the point of view of the Work.

I agree, it is safer to build a firm foundation first before dabbling in something questionable like NLP. Also, I think it is more than enough to just read a little about the most common techniques they use in order to get some 'immunity' against it. No need to take whole courses for that.

 

[Mal7]

I think the lines between what is genuine and what is outright evil are quite narrow and vague when it comes to communication in general.

I guess in some ways, pretty much all communication can be called 'manipulation'. It depends on how you define what exactly manipulation is.

I think it really comes down to the intent behind one's communication. Is the intent to genuinely help? And did that person ask or request that help? In other words, are you respecting their free will?

Just because communication is an interaction between two or more people that involves conveying some kind of information, which causes the other person to respond in some way based on that new information presented to them, I don't think all communication is necessarily 'manipulation'.

In the case of NLP, many of their techniques do seem to be manipulative. Why? Perhaps because they are based on triggering subconscious responses in the other person, rather than interacting with them on the level of conscious rationality.

There may be some benign aims of NLP, such as for overcoming phobias etc. But there certainly seem to be malign uses also, such as dropping words into a conversation that have some positive association for the other person, with the intent of trying to get them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do.

 

[Minas Tirith]

and it's basically hypnosis, which should never be done without consent.

I also have a curious story to tell. Years ago I wanted to take homeopathy classes and was looking for a good school. I lived in a fairly big city at that time and found out that there were several institutes offering these classes. Since they were quite expensive one could make an appointment with one of the instructors before deciding to sign up and he or she would explain to you what was offered, how they were doing it, in short, get a feel for this particular institute.

I went to two of these appointments which were quite "normal" presentations of the respective school, and then to a third one. I had to wait outside the instructors room for a minute and was leafing through the brochures at a table beside me. There was a leaflet about this particular guy, his biography, degrees of which one was this Master of NLP.

Now, the next 15 minutes with him stand out as one of the most peculiar in my life . I don't know what he did, but he indeed tried to manipulate me big time into buying his homeopathy courses. The strange thing was that I saw through the manipulation from Minute 1 (maybe he just wasn't very good), but wasn't able to leave. I found it ridiculous and normally don't have a problem just getting up saying "No, thank you" but that time I was transfixed in my chair like a rabbit until the end. I couldn't shake a very dark feeling until an hour later. So, yes, it felt like hypnosis, and I have to say, of very strange kind.

I remember in the end he gave me course material for free, saying: "Here is our material, I know that you will choose us". I didn't want the material since I knew I would never ever choose them, but couldn't tell him! I left bewildered.

Since then I wanted to find out what this was about, so thanks for the thread of reminding me.

M.T.

 

[axj]

In the case of NLP, many of their techniques do seem to be manipulative. Why? Perhaps because they are based on triggering subconscious responses in the other person, rather than interacting with them on the level of conscious rationality.

I'm not sure if that is the main reason. After all, subconscious reactions are always present to some degree, no matter how rational an interaction is. The subconscious reactions or responses include both positive (intuition) and negative (programs).

I think that, first and foremost, it is about the intent behind the interaction. Is it one's intent to uphold the free will of the other person? This is where the NLP techniques that are practiced on others show their true colors.

There may be some benign aims of NLP, such as for overcoming phobias etc. But there certainly seem to be malign uses also, such as dropping words into a conversation that have some positive association for the other person, with the intent of trying to get them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do.

One of their favorite tricks is to mirror the person's body language, e.g. take the same posture as that creates a subconscious bond or 'sympathy' between people. That is also a pretty obvious way to spot NLP practitioners.

 

[Deleted member 4320]

I met NLP some time ago and have read the theory, I've never had occasion to use it on larger scale, with the exception of a few cases with friends to see how it works, tell them that I am learning NLP and I can tinker with them a bit :), they respond to this exactly as it was written in the book.

This morning I was on job interview and no NLP was needed, because the attitude is the most important, not whether somebody uses techniques or not, attitude is the basis. Confidence, honesty, openness. People subconsciously know that someone is lying. A lie has no legs.

But there are moments when it's not enough. For example: Everyone who want to sell something found that it's not easy. Right? Let's say that we have a really good product that would suit the client. We conducted thorough interview what the customer wants, and we know very well own product also. We just see that this thing is perfect for the customer.

But the client does not know the stuff, is stubborn, get "smart". He is nooby and does not see what best suits his own needs. Then we have a choice: drain the head or use NLP and manipulate him to buy stuff, which he really be happy. He asked us to sell him the best stuff, so we should do the good job and he should leave us with this thing which will be really handy for him. Customer pays not only for thing but also service and we should rise to the occasion.

Maybe someday we will meet the client and he says: 'Once time I bought from you this and this and I was really happy to did it, thanks that you pulled me from buy that crap which I wanted, my friend bought that and he has a lot of problems now.'

For responsible, honest and intelligent people NLP can be a way to succeed, making money and at the same time supporting people to hard-earned money that they spend, not go in vain. Instead painting sparrows and running out from town.

I never seriously used the NLP but if I would have the reasonable reason to use it, I will do.

 

[Michal]

And I think that NLP helps in making good strategic enclosure :). Increases awareness of signals which are sent from us to the surrounding if someone is willing to care about it.

Take Eckman's work on facial representations of emotions. Whatever You call it... it is a fact that it works. You want to know it or pretend that You do not know.

Making rapport with people. Maybe if You meet somebody who is mimicking Your moves and posture, voice etc is a sign of manipulation or maybe it is a sign that You found someone who is resembling You?

I have seen in one author potential threat because I thought that he is pretending being who he is. And what if he is like that? Programs in our heads. NLP is a tool for programming and deprogramming.

Working on some programs is hard, painful and difficult. No one will make it for us. NLP will also not do. NLP gives some systematic approach how to manage emotions and how they are linked to the images, voice, feelings. I am not really master in that although I found it really beneficial for myself to know those things.

Do You know that imagining Dodo bird You may call actually using NLP? :) But You may call it whatever You like.

Saying that NLP is manipulative, or NLP is this or that is like saying that economics is manipulative or otherhand beneficial.
It is attribution fallacy to say that a thing can do something. People can. Man can. So NLP in hand of bad man is a weapon against You. NLP in hand of good man is something that benefits him/her and You.

I am posting it because I think/feel that if You think that NLP is wrong or bad or have some harmful side effects then You are resigning from something which in my opinion is good knowledge.
Axj said that it is about intention behind. If You have malicious intent You can make malicious things. The same You may do with everything around You.

Bandler and maybe even more Grinder were guys from the twilight zone in my opinion. Not really bad not really good (how to generalize it?) Guys who were doing quite well in material world - I mean making business and surviving on the street.
Who created the term and techniques is one thing but truth - does the truth depends on who discovered it? And was it really genuine discovery or maybe this knowledge is simply not available to the masses (which I believe so) and those guys just made it really popular. However for what they wanted to be paid for it it was from the beginning directed to not poor.

So it is rather a question does this work and if yes what kind of benefit may come from it?
I am not making marketing for courses here :). I think that it is a mistake to reject thing that may be useful/beneficial for You. NLP is the part: "wise as a serpent". OSIT.

 

[Buddy]

Hi guys,

I am thinking of picking up evening classes on NLP in my town. Wikipedia describes it as pseudoscience but then it would. I don't know much about it but reading about it, it ticks the boxes of what I want to improve:-

"Learn how to communicate better, free yourself from fears, increase your confidence, change problem behaviours, feel happier ,build better relationships and make better decisions."

I know we have other tools to deal with some of the above, e.g. the psychology board, the 4th way etc.. personally, what I need to work on is better in-person communication skills and organising my thoughts whilst verbally communicating.

Again, why NLP? It's the only class of its sort near where I live that I know off i.e. why I started this thread. It's not because I did research on the internet, came across it, looked it up in my area, then started the thread...

So, is NLP a red flag area or a good use of £50 for a 5 week course?

I'm not sure why people talk "about" NLP as if it's somehow separate from them. You ARE neuro-linguistically programmed just like everyone else. Our entire nervous system became bound up in our language when we learned it. If it were not so, there would be no such thing as 'semantic reactions', 'fighting words' and people hallucinating "government at work" when there is nothing there but individuals laboring under illusions.

So, from one point of view it would probably be good to see the concepts externalized into some lesson plan, but I suspect you can probably learn all you would care to know from a book on General Semantics by Alfred Korzybski at your local library. That was the seminal work that started it all, I think, and contains all the axioms or assumptions NLP is based on.

Mikel seems to have some good insight on this subject, as well.

 

[KingTiger]

I have a colleague at my work who has a certificate in NLP. After becoming friends with him, I also became aware that he was using this technique to “cure” people of ailments like allergies an various phobias which he claimed was by exposing hidden repressed memories of a person's subconscious.

He went around befriending people and offering his NLP services, giving free private sessions, to help with their life issues, including being a consular in emotional, physical, spiritual and relationship matters while claiming that NLP will fix 95% of these issues. It was obvious that he was also loved by these people he had helped and was readily admired.

At that time I did not know what NLP was, when I asked him to explain its concepts, I immediately identified it as form of hypnotism, since I did study hypnotism in the past and understood its techniques very well, I felt was was getting into some hot water. He claimed it was similar but using the emotions and beliefs of the subject, he claimed much success in curing people of various allergies and similar afflictions.

I became cautious when I also learned about his belief system, which was a mix of right-wing Christian fundamentalism with a heavy take on Mormon doctrine. As soon as I let him understand that I was not into this type of life anymore and I did expressed my doubts that there was a historical Jesus Christ (I too was a previous LDS member) as written in the bible. My friend could not even consider that a remote possibility and I felt that the Jesus story was unquestionable in any way. Within a short time, my friend and wanted to give me some sessions to help me with some of my issues is was having.

Using this NLP technique my friend (subconsciously) to try to convince me I was on the wrong path, he gave countless examples of his acquaintances and of himself on how they have had real physical meetings with Christ which told them of a new direction of his second coming using the "true" Mormon doctrine. These people believed that they touched, conversed and hugged Jesus, so I was compelled to reconsider this unbelief of mine since it was the most likely reasons for most of my problems.

From this experience, I have to say, is be very careful of these people, and be diligent of those with a strong surety of deeply seated beliefs, because when you let your guard down you will be assimilated. Since knowledge does protect, his effect on me was minimal, I just make him frustrated with my Godless unbelief.

 

[Ollie]

Mikel seems to have some good insight on this subject, as well.

I agree, especially:

Saying that NLP is manipulative, or NLP is this or that is like saying that economics is manipulative or otherhand beneficial.
It is attribution fallacy to say that a thing can do something. People can. Man can. So NLP in hand of bad man is a weapon against You. NLP in hand of good man is something that benefits him/her and You.

This has been my experience in training in, and using NLP in the past.

 

[Yas]

Mikel seems to have some good insight on this subject, as well.

I agree, especially:

Saying that NLP is manipulative, or NLP is this or that is like saying that economics is manipulative or otherhand beneficial.
It is attribution fallacy to say that a thing can do something. People can. Man can. So NLP in hand of bad man is a weapon against You. NLP in hand of good man is something that benefits him/her and You.

This has been my experience in training in, and using NLP in the past.

Yeah, I also agree with this. I came across NLP a few years ago, I just read a book about the basic theory and I did find at the time, that it was too "profit" oriented, so to say. And oriented more to mind programming than to actual healing and understanding. Nevertheless I've found the theory very interesting as knowledge about or cognition and the influence of language as well as a way to analyze people's speech (I was studying psychology and this seemed to be important for a therapist to know). Then again, it isn't the 'panacea' of everything so I just took it as one extra bit of information to add to the toolkit, so to say.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[Hypertiger]

mod: removed unclear post

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Hi Hypertiger,

We ask that new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section. It does not need to be long, just a little bit about yourself and how you found the forum. Welcome on board!

 

[whitecoast]

Saying that NLP is manipulative, or NLP is this or that is like saying that economics is manipulative or otherhand beneficial.
It is attribution fallacy to say that a thing can do something. People can. Man can. So NLP in hand of bad man is a weapon against You. NLP in hand of good man is something that benefits him/her and You.

When you put it that way, maybe the problem is that NLP techniques are pretty simple, and therefore can accord a lot of power to influence others to people who can have rather low levels of being. I have experiences with people who use it to help others, and those who use it too manipulate others for their own ends (and of course they lie to themselves about it and say they are helping others). It's a jungle out there, and knowledge protects!

 

[Buddy]

When you put it that way, maybe the problem is...

Yes, that's how NLP works to frame a path or direction for a thinking process.

I'm not saying Mikel is using NLP, just that normal conversation is mostly a benign form of that type of persuasion. That's why my position is that it doesn't make sense to think of NLP as something external to us...like a separate subject or whatnot.