NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography

jen1221

Jedi
I just finished my 6th session yesterday.
Sessions 1-4 I experienced depression, irritability, and annoyance. Also, an increase in the lights in my peripheral vision, deep blue, as opposed to white and light blue.

The day after my 5th session I had a panic attack. I thought maybe my anxiety would get better if I went ahead with the 6th session, but no change thus far. I hope it’s a temporary thing. Maybe an increase in anxiety means I have reached my limit or that I should only do once a week rather than twice a week?. I also have a decrease in appetite after the 5th session and get full faster.
I had a release during session 6, I had some quivering twice in my legs, as if I had a cold chill there.
 

3DStudent

The Living Force
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Hi nature. I have tinnitus too, of two different high frequencies. I don't usually hear it if there is background noise. I haven't started Neuroptimal, but want to soon. I hope you can find a work around for not hearing the clicks well. You may try to do the sessions in the morning, as I find that my tinnitus gets louder in the evenings due to ear fatigue from hearing things for all day.


Laura said:
I ran across this video the other day and save it. Just might be worth giving a try.


https://youtu.be/GsCTBeGrT8k
Thanks, Laura. I've done a similar ear tapping maneuver that helps. It's temporary and I think it's something you need to do over time, as mentioned in the video. I just tried what was in the video, and the thumbs in ear part seemed to also help with massaging some TMJ pain that I have.
 

anartist

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
nature said:
And in my case, there is a particular point: I have tinnitus, intense, permanent, and multiple (with a wide range of sound frequencies that overlap each over). These internal sounds mask some external sounds. While doing the NO sessions, I don't hear the clicks. It's not because my brain is well-functionning (it's all the contrary), it's, I guess, because clicks are masked by tinnitus, thus my brain doesn't benefit from the feedback provided by the clicks. Then I decided to do 1 session each day, in order to try to catch moments when tinnitus is less intense (rare, but I don't despair).

Persevering is a key point in lots of things, particularly when we want for a change.
Just my 2 bits here nature.
Whether you have tinnitus or not is not relevant, I think. According to the NeurOptimal protocol it is your brain that hears the clicks, whether or not you do.
All the information in our field is perceived by your brain/mind, but mostly by our subconscious.This link gives a brief explanation.
http://www.evsc.net/research/intuition-subliminal-perception-and-the-subconscious
I don't really understand people counting the clicks they hear. If you heard no clicks, that would just mean that your conscious mind could not hear them, but your subconscious mind can (System 1). I liken it to what we know about movies. If we are looking at a roll of film in a canister, we can see the individual frames, but when that film is projected on a screen, we can't. We see motion. The frames are moving too fast for our conscious mind to see them, (though possible our subconscious mind can see them), does that mean the frames do not exist?

I agree wholeheartedly with your idea of perseverance nature. I think that is exactly the attitude to take, and as others have pointed out, ask for feedback from people who know you, do they perceive any changes that you may not be aware of? That may be better feedback than hearing clicks.

And if your brain truly cannot hear the clicks due to hardware damage, I wonder what protocol NeurOptimal has for deaf people? In that case would they use the video, but that also seems to depend on clicks. I think their video is too simple. The Neurofeedback protocol uses video and appears to use changes in the video presentation (cars moving on a track for example) to provide feedback.

All the best nature, and persevere! :)
 

shijing

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I want to give an update on my experience so far. I've had six session now, two per week with this past week off because my practitioner was out of town at a conference. The amount of skips I perceive during sessions varies quite a bit -- during some sessions there seem to be quite a few of them, but during others I hardly notice any.

Although anxiety and depression are both things that I struggle with from time to time, the former is a bigger problem for me than the latter (and happens with more regularity). I don't enjoy either, but I can usually function well enough when I experience depression and just try to push through it when it occurs; anxiety, on the other hand, can be very disruptive for me since it can be paralyzing (at least temporarily) and depletes a lot of my energy when I experience it.

I haven't yet noticed a reduction in anxiety, and if anything it sometimes seems more pronounced since I started the NO sessions. The interesting thing is that none of the anxiety that I experience seems to be 'new' -- rather, it's that I feel my regular anxiety more acutely. It's kind of like having a wound that had scabbed over, and then the scab is removed -- pain is there in both instances, but it feels more raw after the buffer is taken away. It's not more intense in an extreme way, but it is noticeable, and that's the best way I can think of to describe it.

I'm making the assumption for now that this may just be part of the process necessary to ultimately resolve the anxiety, and plan to continue my sessions at this point, at least to the 20-session mark that has been mentioned previously. I'm hopeful that ultimately I'll see some progress in this area, but for now I'm trying to keep an open mind and observe any changes that I can while continuing the NO sessions that I began last month.
 

Approaching Infinity

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anarkist said:
nature said:
And in my case, there is a particular point: I have tinnitus, intense, permanent, and multiple (with a wide range of sound frequencies that overlap each over). These internal sounds mask some external sounds. While doing the NO sessions, I don't hear the clicks. It's not because my brain is well-functionning (it's all the contrary), it's, I guess, because clicks are masked by tinnitus, thus my brain doesn't benefit from the feedback provided by the clicks. Then I decided to do 1 session each day, in order to try to catch moments when tinnitus is less intense (rare, but I don't despair).

Persevering is a key point in lots of things, particularly when we want for a change.
Just my 2 bits here nature.
Whether you have tinnitus or not is not relevant, I think. According to the NeurOptimal protocol it is your brain that hears the clicks, whether or not you do.
That's correct. Unless you are actually deaf (see below), the brain hears the clicks. In fact, most of the clicks are so quick they aren't even noticed by people with excellent hearing. They're subliminal. The clicks are actually insertions of gaps and noise into the playback of the music, i.e. interruptions in stream of sound your brain is 'hearing'. As long as you can hear the music, your brain can hear the feedback.

And if your brain truly cannot hear the clicks due to hardware damage, I wonder what protocol NeurOptimal has for deaf people? In that case would they use the video, but that also seems to depend on clicks. I think their video is too simple. The Neurofeedback protocol uses video and appears to use changes in the video presentation (cars moving on a track for example) to provide feedback.
There are options for people with hearing loss and even nerve damage. First, if you have an audiogram(?) that shows your range of hearing, the NO people can create a special audio track for you adapted to your range of hearing. Also, watching a video with the audio helps too, because the interruptions also affect the playback of the video, so your eyes can receive feedback as well. I don't mean watching the default visualization, but an actual video file like a movie. I'm pretty sure the visualizer doesn't provide feedback (don't quote me on that though - I'm not 100% sure).
 

beetlemaniac

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Approaching Infinity said:
There are options for people with hearing loss and even nerve damage. First, if you have an audiogram(?) that shows your range of hearing, the NO people can create a special audio track for you adapted to your range of hearing. Also, watching a video with the audio helps too, because the interruptions also affect the playback of the video, so your eyes can receive feedback as well. I don't mean watching the default visualization, but an actual video file like a movie. I'm pretty sure the visualizer doesn't provide feedback (don't quote me on that though - I'm not 100% sure).
Hi AI,

My observation of the way NO works tells me that those clicks are created by toggling the "mute" function of your sound card. However, I'm not sure if any other type of feedback is provided besides this (you mentioned adding noise into the audio). Thus, if the method of feedback remains the same - videos should play normally while only the audio track is manipulated. This is based on what I see on the media player interface (I think this was in the zView window) - the mute function comes on whenever clicks happen.
 

nature

Jedi Council Member
Thank you very much to all for your solicitude!

I'll ask my practitionner next time I see him (what he thinks of this clicks' stuff, and how to remedy to cases like mine). I'll bring my computer and he'll look at the results, he'll see if there is progress above all. I see him next week and will let you know. Meanwhile I continue the sessions each day.
Thank you again!
 

Timótheos

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Timótheos said:
She showed us the results of our brainwaves afterwards, and like Gandalf, there was significantly more activity in my left hemisphere than my right. Today we had another session and this time both sides of my brain were much more balanced. So, it does appear to be working.
Recently completed my 11th NO session, and for this one I chose to listen to a classical music track while keeping my eyes open and reading a book for the entire time. I thought perhaps because I was reading and not paying attention to the music, that the final graph would show more activity in the left hemisphere because I was engaging the thinking/rational side of the brain.

The result in the end was the opposite of what I expected, as this session showed more activity in the right hemisphere, which was a first for me. So, this suggests that there is a lot of stuff going on in the background that isn't necessarily related to the musical choice or what the listener is actively doing during the process.
 

Laura

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jen1221 said:
I just finished my 6th session yesterday.
Sessions 1-4 I experienced depression, irritability, and annoyance. Also, an increase in the lights in my peripheral vision, deep blue, as opposed to white and light blue.

The day after my 5th session I had a panic attack. I thought maybe my anxiety would get better if I went ahead with the 6th session, but no change thus far. I hope it’s a temporary thing. Maybe an increase in anxiety means I have reached my limit or that I should only do once a week rather than twice a week?. I also have a decrease in appetite after the 5th session and get full faster.
I had a release during session 6, I had some quivering twice in my legs, as if I had a cold chill there.
Sounds about like what I was experiencing at that number of sessions: emotional detox. I'll be doing my 12th session today and believe me, things do get better. You find yourself much better able to cope with emotional shocks.
 

Approaching Infinity

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bm said:
Approaching Infinity said:
There are options for people with hearing loss and even nerve damage. First, if you have an audiogram(?) that shows your range of hearing, the NO people can create a special audio track for you adapted to your range of hearing. Also, watching a video with the audio helps too, because the interruptions also affect the playback of the video, so your eyes can receive feedback as well. I don't mean watching the default visualization, but an actual video file like a movie. I'm pretty sure the visualizer doesn't provide feedback (don't quote me on that though - I'm not 100% sure).
Hi AI,

My observation of the way NO works tells me that those clicks are created by toggling the "mute" function of your sound card. However, I'm not sure if any other type of feedback is provided besides this (you mentioned adding noise into the audio). Thus, if the method of feedback remains the same - videos should play normally while only the audio track is manipulated. This is based on what I see on the media player interface (I think this was in the zView window) - the mute function comes on whenever clicks happen.
The NO people refer to the clicks as "interruptions". I'd have to double check with the instructors, but I am pretty sure the way the feedback works is by inserting tiny gaps in the playback, more like pressing pause rather than mute. The playback stops for a split second, then continues where it left off after the stop. At least, that's the way I understood what they told me when I asked. They specifically told me that watching the video would aid a person with reduced hearing by providing a visual cue for the feedback.
 

Windmill knight

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Yesterday I had my 6th session. I didn't report earlier because I thought with only a few sessions my observations wouldn't be very 'scientific' (not big enough sample). So far, I can say that before the N.O. sessions I was going through a phase of feeling quite happy and stable. In fact, after the first or maybe 2nd session, I noticed I became emotionally more unstable: a bit more irritable, worrying about small things, some nightmarish nights and a couple of days in particular feeling quite melancholic - although nothing extreme. I can think of different small reasons for being 'triggered' - all of which seem trivial right now. It could be that the reasons were just the narratives, and that I was going through a 'down' phase triggered by the N.O. Or maybe the natural cycle of ups and downs just happened to coincide with N.O. Either way, after the 6th one I'm feeling quite happy and stable again. For the last 3 sessions I've increased the frequency a little also to once every two days, when before that it was once or twice a week, so maybe that made some difference. We'll see what happens next!

I also wanted to comment that I find it totally amazing how much the brain is doing in the background while we are just going through our lives, judging by all the graphs and numbers that come up during the sessions. The brain is really a super computer and it's very much alive and active in ways we don't even know of! Often you will see that frequencies associated with the unconcious are going crazy while the other seem to be relatively quiet. It reminds me of something that Jordan Peterson (I think) said that Jung said: that we are always dreaming, even when awake. It's just that we don't notice it during the day! :scared:
 

Altair

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Approaching Infinity said:
bm said:
Approaching Infinity said:
There are options for people with hearing loss and even nerve damage. First, if you have an audiogram(?) that shows your range of hearing, the NO people can create a special audio track for you adapted to your range of hearing. Also, watching a video with the audio helps too, because the interruptions also affect the playback of the video, so your eyes can receive feedback as well. I don't mean watching the default visualization, but an actual video file like a movie. I'm pretty sure the visualizer doesn't provide feedback (don't quote me on that though - I'm not 100% sure).
Hi AI,

My observation of the way NO works tells me that those clicks are created by toggling the "mute" function of your sound card. However, I'm not sure if any other type of feedback is provided besides this (you mentioned adding noise into the audio). Thus, if the method of feedback remains the same - videos should play normally while only the audio track is manipulated. This is based on what I see on the media player interface (I think this was in the zView window) - the mute function comes on whenever clicks happen.
The NO people refer to the clicks as "interruptions". I'd have to double check with the instructors, but I am pretty sure the way the feedback works is by inserting tiny gaps in the playback, more like pressing pause rather than mute. The playback stops for a split second, then continues where it left off after the stop. At least, that's the way I understood what they told me when I asked. They specifically told me that watching the video would aid a person with reduced hearing by providing a visual cue for the feedback.
Yes, and not all of these interrupts are directly audible. As I was explained, one such interrupt can be as short as 1/270 second and be perceivable only to your unconscious mind.
 

Zadius Sky

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Approaching Infinity said:
Unless you are actually deaf (see below), the brain hears the clicks. In fact, most of the clicks are so quick they aren't even noticed by people with excellent hearing. They're subliminal. The clicks are actually insertions of gaps and noise into the playback of the music, i.e. interruptions in stream of sound your brain is 'hearing'. As long as you can hear the music, your brain can hear the feedback.
During my first and last NeurOptimal, I barely heard the music (when set to the highest volume) so I might be getting the feedback to some degree. I was unable to get any more NO sessions.


Approaching Infinity said:
There are options for people with hearing loss and even nerve damage. First, if you have an audiogram(?) that shows your range of hearing, the NO people can create a special audio track for you adapted to your range of hearing. Also, watching a video with the audio helps too, because the interruptions also affect the playback of the video, so your eyes can receive feedback as well. I don't mean watching the default visualization, but an actual video file like a movie. I'm pretty sure the visualizer doesn't provide feedback (don't quote me on that though - I'm not 100% sure).
A couple of months ago, I watched the video on the Cygnet system (using the Othmer method), which provided a feedback, I think. I didn't have to take off my hearing aid for this. My problem with this video feedback is that it bothered my eyes (ie., causing eyestrains).

I'm definitely curious to try out the "special audio track" that NO people might create. My last audiogram shows that my hearing range is 95-105 decibels (dB) for my right ear (my left ear is a complete loss). A range between 0 and 25 dB is a "normal" hearing.

Thanks, AI, for looking into this.
 

Zar

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nature said:
And in my case, there is a particular point: I have tinnitus, intense, permanent, and multiple (with a wide range of sound frequencies that overlap each over). These internal sounds mask some external sounds. While doing the NO sessions, I don't hear the clicks. It's not because my brain is well-functionning (it's all the contrary), it's, I guess, because clicks are masked by tinnitus, thus my brain doesn't benefit from the feedback provided by the clicks. Then I decided to do 1 session each day, in order to try to catch moments when tinnitus is less intense (rare, but I don't despair).

Persevering is a key point in lots of things, particularly when we want for a change.
I see, thanks for the post and Chu's as well. I switched to a different NO therapist(same that Bluefyre is using) and she was much more informative as her focus has been NO for over 10 years. She's also trained with Valdean Brown and follows his recommendations. She mentioned that she's had the some clients for over 10 years now and that some need NO even over 100 times. She also mentioned that there is a new version of NO coming out, version 3.0, and it will be made available at the beginning of May. They are currently doing Beta testing. This new version will not have all the graphs or the video and I think has a new soundtrack. Valdean Brown apparently recommends that the sessions should be done with eyes closed to get the most out of it. Oh and she also mentioned that these songs that are used reach very deeply into the psyche of the patient.

On a side note I've had my 11th session and the oddest thing occurred today at work (I'm sure it's normal for most people, so odd for my particular trauma/body). I'm still reading HDT, as I keep on having to put it down to think about it's ramifications, and I've found that I tended to cringe most of the time when touched. I perceive physical contact as threatening or at least I reacted by tensing up. So today at work a co-worker poked me on the side ribs as we were joking around and for the first time since I can remember I actually felt a small sense of joy out of that poke. It was the oddest thing and very pleasant. It may not seem like such a big issue since most people who get tickled feel joy(though I guess I've missed out on that), but if this is due to NO then it's incredible how it really rewrites your physical/emotional/mental trauma.
 

trendsetter37

The Living Force
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jen1221 said:
I just finished my 6th session yesterday.
Sessions 1-4 I experienced depression, irritability, and annoyance. Also, an increase in the lights in my peripheral vision, deep blue, as opposed to white and light blue.

The day after my 5th session I had a panic attack. I thought maybe my anxiety would get better if I went ahead with the 6th session, but no change thus far. I hope it’s a temporary thing. Maybe an increase in anxiety means I have reached my limit or that I should only do once a week rather than twice a week?. I also have a decrease in appetite after the 5th session and get full faster.
I had a release during session 6, I had some quivering twice in my legs, as if I had a cold chill there.
I do think the extra anxiety is temporary. Recently had my second NO session 2 days ago to which I had a panic attack throughout its duration with a 5 to 10 min reprieve somewhere in the middle. It was so intense and unfamiliar that I almost aborted twice however I will say that pipe breathing helped even though my body seemed to be freaking out.

There was a big solar storm the past 10 days or so which coincides with experiences of more anxiety than usual. Ergo, it's difficult for me to suss out whether my anxiety is attributed to cosmic weather, possible contraction after the first session a month ago, or my body just being rewired to feel anxiety more acutely (as Windmill Knight mentioned). As of this morning, I lean towards somewhere between the first 2 options because I've felt more at ease the last 48 hours.
 
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