New Delhi Gang-Rape, Reactions and Cultural Pathology

[knowledge_of_self]

Hey everyone:

Here's a little something I wrote in trying to get some of my thoughts down with what's been going on in the world and the reactions to them.

An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. Mahatma Gandhi

You've heard the saying "there is a thin line between love and hate". I think there is a thin line between justified anger and vengeance too.

I'm sure you've all read or heard about the recent horrible gang-rape in India. I've always had a fear of rape, although in recent years I've been able to control that fear much better thanks to acquiring knowledge about psychopathy. Still, reading about what happened to that poor girl and her boyfriend send chills down my spine; reading it was like reading about my deepest, darkest fears, though they happened to another person.

Needless to say, I was horrified when I read about it. But I have to say I was equally horrified when I read an article and Facebook comments about what should be done with the 'men' who committed this crime.

The consensus opinion among those commenting was that the rapists should "all be tortured in the most painful way possible, castrated, and burned to hell and I hope they burn there too."

A few weeks ago, I read similar comments about the Sandy Hook school shooting, directed at Adam Lanza, and I was horrified then too.

I can't help but wonder where this mentality will lead us. The decision of what is to be done with these men is a moral dilemma of immense proportions.

I used to be in favor of this kind of vengeful mentality against rapists. But I've tried to look past the physical and emotional hurt of rape. I've tried to understand that we live in a world where psychopathy and narcissism is rampant. That wherever you're born, and wherever you live, psychopaths and other character-disturbed people exist. Lots of them. This has been a fact for millennia. And their pathological influence is such that as children we can't help but assimilate at least some of this pathology because we do not know any better. All it takes is a narcissistic parent or two, who themselves did not know any better and were doing the best they could under the circumstances.

In the case of the New Delhi rape, unless all these men were genetic psychopaths, I have a hard time laying the blame solely on their shoulders. As 'men', they committed a heinous crime; but Indian society, like society everywhere in our global civilization, didn't raise men in the true sense of the word. India's caste system is a cultural divide between its people. Some of the lower castes are treated less than human by the higher castes. You would think that in the 21st century such things as explicit 'caste systems' would be abolished. But they're not, and I think that it is this type of institutionalized pathology that is the real problem in India. Incidentally, the British are largely to blame for the caste system as it exists today in India.

I often hear people comment that banksters/corporate CEOs "should all be dragged out into the streets and hanged". It is that same vengeful kind of thought that bothers me. What will that accomplish, except to add blood on the hands of the people who commit the act? Take Mussolini's downfall, for example. People dragged him out into the streets and hung him; is Italy any less corrupt now because of it? I would say no, and in fact, the corruption is now just more hidden and probably a lot more rampant than ever before and we just don't see it.

Yes, the 'men' that committed this terrible crime in New Delhi are at fault, but so are we. We are at fault for letting society go this far down the tubes. We're guilty for raping our planet on a daily basis. And then when results of our actions spill out in such a violent way, we want to answer that with more violence and bloodshed. I ask you again; what will that accomplish?

Sometimes I wonder what the future will be like on Earth if we follow this type of vengeful mentality, and not let ourselves look at the deeper issues we're faced with in our societies; cultural programs that we must leave behind if we want to evolve as a species. I think of how impossible that seems, and how bleak the future will be if we don't.

This Delhi gang-rape is but one incident in an ocean of violence against women all over the world. The momentum the story has picked up from worldwide media attention is extraordinary, but I hope it won't be forgotten with time as almost everything else is. I hope that this tragic incident can be a catalyst for the people of India to re-evaluate themselves and their cultural pathology more closely.

We can't change what's happened, but we can change the way we face it. I think that is what will define us as human beings.

 

[Gwenllian]

This Delhi gang-rape is but one incident in an ocean of violence against women all over the world. The momentum the story has picked up from worldwide media attention is extraordinary, but I hope it won't be forgotten with time as almost everything else is. I hope that this tragic incident can be a catalyst for the people of India to re-evaluate themselves and their cultural pathology more closely.

We can't change what's happened, but we can change the way we face it. I think that is what will define us as human beings.

IMO, the world media are focussing on this gang rape in India, because it allows them to say (implicitly) that Indian men are beasts.

I watched 'The Accused' many years ago and several times, a powerful reminder of sexual violence in the US.
Jody Foster plays a woman that ends up being gang-raped in a bar. Some men that are not involved in the act of rape cheer on the rapists.
This is a film worth watching, it shows (as far as I can remember) the dynamics of gang-rape and the other despicable act of cheering on the perpetrators. Also, the victim when it is all over still experiences sexual intimidation by one of the men that chose to watch and egg on the others, when she encounters him in a shop.
I remember reading somewhere that the actors and crew were crying and sobbing while shooting the rape scenes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accused_%281988_film%29

That reminds me of an interview that I once watched, where Sabine's mother (one of the girls that was abducted by Marc Dutroux) and raped by unknown (?) men relates that people would shout at Sabine, chanting 'Dutroux' which also means hole in French, which is of course sexually implicit language.

We saw the same thing happening to the girl that was date(?)-raped by members of that football-team in Ohio.

As Lisa wrote in het article:

http://www.sott.net/article/255885-To-Be-or-Not-to-Be-Human

we have to draw a line in the sand. And defend the victims.

 

[Gawan]

Thanks for sharing D. I often wondered in a similar direction if any capital punishment would solve anything (at least I read it that way). Eventually it is just a quick "fix", but nothing else is solved and life still goes on. The punishment with its supposed intention to shock, eventually impress people with a consciousness, but a psychopath with nothing like that wouldn't care about this morality and parenting society. Alas this incidence should be shocking enough that something is terribly wrong, but as you wrote, it not just happening in India. It reminds me also a bit of the Survivors series where also one got a capital punishment (and innocently died).

 

[Lisa Guliani]

I've seen that movie "The Accused". It was very hard to watch it, knowing this isn't just a fiction, knowing it ( rape) happens to people - not just to women - all over the world. It's a good movie to watch though, because it provokes much thought.

I'm not sure what should be done with the rapist murderers in India. Their lawyer is now trying to make the defense that the victim's boyfriend, who was also beaten unconscious and dumped off the bus alongside her - a victim of this attack himself - is the one really at fault, because he 'betrayed' her.
What a bunch of b.s. Is this 'defense' to be taken seriously, by anyone, anywhere? That's the level of defense being made? The other victim in this attack is now being held up as complicit in perpetrating this horrific crime?

The thinking has to radically and significantly change - on a global scale - if these kinds of violence are ever going to stop, or so it seems to me.
Where there is little or no respect for the basic human rights of one individual, there is little to no respect for the basic human rights of any individual.
Yes, I also think this - and other - rape stories will garner the public spotlight for a brief time, like other news stories - and then probably fade from the public consciousness.
It's my hope that more serious focus will be placed on examining what kind of thinking caused this murder to happen and programs be put into place to address the issue once and for all. That's my hope, but I suspect it is unlikely to happen or even if it does, the current thinking and existent belief systems aleady in place are so engrained in so many people, it may not make much of a difference.

I tried to feel compassion for these men who raped and killed this woman, to see if I could look beyond what they have done and empathize with them.
I think my own reaction to seeing so many calls for their executions is strange, because I don't think they should be killed.
One might think I would want them to be killed, to punish them in the most severe manner, to make a public example of them, to send a message to others.

But no, I think they should be put away for life, where they can harm no other human being, and forced to confront what they did every single day of their incarceration. I think each man should be required to look at the photos of what they did to this woman - and to her boyfriend - every single day for the rest of their breathing days. I don't know if education would help these men or not.

But they should, in my view, be forced to see the face of this young woman, to look at what they did to her and have to live with what they did.
Calling for their deaths, while understandable, only extends to them an escape hatch. Granted, allowing them to live extends to them a mercy they didn't extend to their victim, I know this.

I just don't think more murder is the right answer.
The thinking has to change. Dead men don't think.

My heart goes out to the family and friends of these rape victims. I'm still trying to find some compassion for the perps.
Perhaps not calling for their deaths is about all I can muster at this point.

They must not be allowed to forget.

 

[lwu02eb]

Sorry to have to say this Lisa but 'men' that would do this, would likely get off on having photos of the victim to look at. These are 'men' without shame, remorse or conscience. I can't imagine anyone with even a remotely functioning conscience being able to do this.

 

[Lisa Guliani]

I wasn't suggesting they would care or feel anything, but that they should not be allowed to forget. And I wasn't meaning they should get to look at any glamour shots either.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Maybe they should be made to work very hard labor for the rest of their lives producing something that would then be used to support the victims’ families.

 

[Aiming]

I hope that this tragic incident can be a catalyst for the people of India to re-evaluate themselves and their cultural pathology more closely.

I think that's hardly possible, given the lack of knowledge about psychopaths and ponerology. Without this knowledge, it'll just be more of the same, treating merely symptoms short-term, and the people being left feeling helpless at the horror of it without understanding the roots. It's not even 'just' about rape incidents such as these, "random", "on the streets", "by some criminals". It's also, as others have mentioned, the fact of sexual predators in the highest ranks of society and power on a global scale and how they protect and cover up for each other while making people believe they're fighting these crimes; and also sexual abuse within families. And the heavy silence that's being perpetuated, the lies by the perpetrators, and the people's denial and shoving things under the rug once the media hype has died down again. This sickness is so huge/wide-spread, I do think that at this point a cosmic cleansing is very much over-due.

The interesting thing is, these incidents becoming public have the potential of being a catalyst, along the lines of DCM sending signs/shouting out loud about the reality of the situation. But as usual, the question is: Is it being heard? Can it be heard, are there ears to hear, and then, are there hands to act upon it? - and those acting hands can only act from a base of knowledge if there is to be any sort of true change. But I also think that if it arouses people to stand up/protest/propel them into action and work to defend each other from these predators, that is an important step already, because at least there's the chance that fewer people will suffer. And perhaps it can open up more people to informing themselves about psychopaths and other character disturbances, but I'm not holding my breath here.

Well, I've also wondered about what would be the best way to deal with people of this kind when I was reading that the Indian news were talking about torture and death penalty. I think Lisa's suggestion of incarcerating them for life, and Jerry's of making them do useful work for others make the most sense currently. Wanting to make them face their deeds daily for the rest of their lives is very understandable, but at the same time I don't think it would have the effect on them as men with conscience would hope for. Where there is no fertile ground, no seeds can take hold. This approach of punishment, I think, arises out of us not being able to understand how they work, that it's really possible that there's no conscience in someone.

I've talked to an acquaintance from India recently, and he, too, was telling me that he and everyone he knows is for the rapists' death penalty. He was very emotional and then also asked questions like 'How can a person do this? I don't understand!' and 'What can be done about it? - What do you think should be done about it?'
I did mention psychopathy and that studying this topic is very important and sharing it with others. But he hasn't shown any interest in studying the topic besides asking me a few questions now and then. What he did say was how he hoped that the government would do something about it. I then brought up how a community could also act themselves and protect their women, and he said that things like these were already under way, but that it wasn't easy, because the men were also afraid for themselves, given how the boyfriend of the victim was treated.

What I do hope, though, is that the Indian people will continue protesting and demanding change and support from law enforcement. I just don't see that any of this will go beyond the mere treatment of symptoms.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Well, I've also wondered about what would be the best way to deal with people of this kind when I was reading that the Indian news were talking about torture and death penalty. I think Lisa's suggestion of incarcerating them for life, and Jerry's of making them do useful work for others make the most sense currently. Wanting to make them face their deeds daily for the rest of their lives is very understandable, but at the same time I don't think it would have the effect on them as men with conscience would hope for. Where there is no fertile ground, no seeds can take hold. This approach of punishment, I think, arises out of us not being able to understand how they work, that it's really possible that there's no conscience in someone.

Fwiw, that has been my line of thought as well about what should be done with those 'men'.

I also agree with you about the picture issue. I don't think it will have the same effect on them, if any of them are men of even remote conscience, and ever come to regret what they did, they will dream of it and will see her face for the rest of their lives anyway. And they will live with the horror of what they did to her. I put remote in bold because it would have to be very, very remote, considering what they did.

I've talked to an acquaintance from India recently, and he, too, was telling me that he and everyone he knows is for the rapists' death penalty. He was very emotional and then also asked questions like 'How can a person do this? I don't understand!' and 'What can be done about it? - What do you think should be done about it?'
I did mention psychopathy and that studying this topic is very important and sharing it with others. But he hasn't shown any interest in studying the topic besides asking me a few questions now and then. What he did say was how he hoped that the government would do something about it. I then brought up how a community could also act themselves and protect their women, and he said that things like these were already under way, but that it wasn't easy, because the men were also afraid for themselves, given how the boyfriend of the victim was treated.

What I do hope, though, is that the Indian people will continue protesting and demanding change and support from law enforcement. I just don't see that any of this will go beyond the mere treatment of symptoms.

I think it's good that your friend is asking questions. And you never know how what you say to him may effect him. He may end up really thinking about it one day if he gets a very personal shock in his life. Usually that's what happens to make people really take action.

Regarding the government doing something. While I agree that the people should protest and that it is a good thing that they want change, I think wanting more "protection from the government" is a double-edged sword. As you said yourself, there are pathologicals and sexual predators in all levels of the government, and that includes law-enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised that some rapes you never hear about happens by police officers there.

I don't argue that women need to be able to feel safe again, but how is asking for more corrupt law-enforcement going to help? Isn't that the same thing as how the Americans now want armed guards in every school? Through the years I've come to shutter at the idea of "government protection" not feel safer about it.

And wouldn't the law-enfocrement in India have to abide by the same ideals of the caste system? And basically shaft the lower-class people for higher class? I'm not really sure how all that works in detail.

I think you're right about how things will be more difficult to change without knowledge of psychopathy, but I don't think it will be impossible. There is something rotten in their society and a lot of people can see it now, they just have to hone it a little. And perhaps knowledge of psychopathy will come in at some point to guide them, if they actually take action to abolish such backwards practices like the cast-system. But as you said, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Laura]

Sorry to have to say this Lisa but 'men' that would do this, would likely get off on having photos of the victim to look at. These are 'men' without shame, remorse or conscience. I can't imagine anyone with even a remotely functioning conscience being able to do this.

Trying to get them to "face" and "understand" what they did is probably a waste of time. It would be like putting images of a half-eaten mouse in front of a cat to make the cat "face" what it did. It means NOTHING to the cat except "Oh, another half of mouse to eat..." or "That was a particularly yummy mouse... "

Maybe they should be made to work very hard labor for the rest of their lives producing something that would then be used to support the victims’ families.

That's the best idea so far.

The fact is, one can never eliminate genetic pathology from the gene pool because of the nature of sexual reproduction and mutation, epigenetics, and so on. Also, there doesn't really seem to be any sure method for determining if an individual is a genetic or "created" psychopath/characteropath. Even brain scans are iffy. What CAN be determined is that an individual has behaved in ways that are harmful to others with no justification. If they have done that, then they should be taken out of the society and some other way found where they can contribute even if they do so only because they have no choice. If they refuse that, if they make it so that they are nothing but a danger AND a burden on society, then hemlock (or something) is a good option.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Their lawyer is now trying to make the defense that the victim's boyfriend, who was also beaten unconscious and dumped off the bus alongside her - a victim of this attack himself - is the one really at fault, because he 'betrayed' her.
What a bunch of b.s. Is this 'defense' to be taken seriously, by anyone, anywhere? That's the level of defense being made? The other victim in this attack is now being held up as complicit in perpetrating this horrific crime?

The thinking has to radically and significantly change - on a global scale - if these kinds of violence are ever going to stop, or so it seems to me.
Where there is little or no respect for the basic human rights of one individual, there is little to no respect for the basic human rights of any individual.

I agree 100 % with what you said in bold above Lisa.

Regarding the lawyer, I actually wasn't surprised at what he said. He sounded like a lot of religious men I met in Iran. Most of those types of people believe that women are basically the 'property' of the man and that the man has to set precedence for his woman. If the woman does something that is considered 'wrong' in society (in this case, "an unmarried couple that wanted to stay out late on a 'joy ride'") it's the fault of the man for not being man enough to control her. Yes the mentality is backwards, but I do think a lot of the religious people there probably think the same thing, though they might not be brave enough to voice their opinions on the matter right now. Another clear example of pathology in the society.

I tried to feel compassion for these men who raped and killed this woman, to see if I could look beyond what they have done and empathize with them.
I think my own reaction to seeing so many calls for their executions is strange, because I don't think they should be killed.
One might think I would want them to be killed, to punish them in the most severe manner, to make a public example of them, to send a message to others.

I know exactly what you mean Lisa, and several years a go I'd be right there with others who think they should all die and go to hell. But now, all I can see is that this is the world run by psychopaths and these men are the offspring of that world/society. That is a fact. So I'm trying to be logical about it -and it's very hard. So while trying to think logically I keep seeing these extremely hateful comments that keeps bringing me back to thinking, how are we acting any different if we want to torture these people, castrate them, and then kill them. Perhaps that will bring some relief to the family of the victims that they think some level of "justice" was served. But is it really justice? Or is it us just wanting to take the easy way out as humans? So we don't have to look at the deeper issues that plague us. To really face the disease (psychopathy) that would cause these people to do this horrid thing.

This situation also reminds me of the movie Clockwork Orange by Stanley Kubrick, and the moral issues it talks about.

 

[loreta]

From the article of the story of the rape:

An estimated 25,000 women are murdered each year by families who view their choice of mate as inappropriate

And we expect justice from a country who accepts this? Who consider women like cattle? We expect some justice from a society who thinks that women are responsible of their rape? Who cares about them. While they are talking about this case other women are been raped and widows are killed or killed themselves and young girls have to prostituted themselves. Nothing will change when a society respects more a cow than a woman, sorry to say that.

There is no justice, not in India, not in Spain, nor anywhere. It is all the planet who is corrupted, rotten. The firsts victims always are kids and women. I don't feel compassion for the rapists of women nor for the rapists of little kids. They don't merit, under my personal point of vue, to live. They are responsible of sufferance, tragedies. At the same time, these 5 rapists are just 5 rapists, the point of an iceberg. To give them the death punishment wont change anything, just give a little respite to people, to calm them... The problem persists. Nothing will be done, because this is old as Time itself, in India. How to change a culture? Did Mrs. Gandhi wanted to change something? She was assassinated.

It is a situation, I think, without exit. And very sad.

 

[Adaryn]

The fact is, one can never eliminate genetic pathology from the gene pool because of the nature of sexual reproduction and mutation, epigenetics, and so on. Also, there doesn't really seem to be any sure method for determining if an individual is a genetic or "created" psychopath/characteropath. Even brain scans are iffy. What CAN be determined is that an individual has behaved in ways that are harmful to others with no justification. If they have done that, then they should be taken out of the society and some other way found where they can contribute even if they do so only because they have no choice. If they refuse that, if they make it so that they are nothing but a danger AND a burden on society, then hemlock (or something) is a good option.

I agree. Trying to feel compassion for conscienceless predators only makes us their food. Trying to make them really see what they've done - waste of time. They're the same as Dutroux and psychopaths who rape children, they'd probably get off seeing pics of what they've done, while feigning remorse and big 'crocodile tears' for the show, to avoid being lynched by an angry crowd.

 

[Aiming]

Regarding the government doing something. While I agree that the people should protest and that it is a good thing that they want change, I think wanting more "protection from the government" is a double-edged sword. As you said yourself, there are pathologicals and sexual predators in all levels of the government, and that includes law-enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised that some rapes you never hear about happens by police officers there.

I don't argue that women need to be able to feel safe again, but how is asking for more corrupt law-enforcement going to help? Isn't that the same thing as how the Americans now want armed guards in every school? Through the years I've come to shutter at the idea of "government protection" not feel safer about it.

And wouldn't the law-enfocrement in India have to abide by the same ideals of the caste system? And basically shaft the lower-class people for higher class? I'm not really sure how all that works in detail.

I agree with the points you've raised, they are on my mind as well. My line of thinking in saying that I hope for people to keep protesting and demanding help from their authorities is that if they didn't raise their voice in call for justice, the government wouldn't have to deal with the issue at all. With the protests and media coverage however, they are pressured to do something, even if the system is rotten to the core and the measurements possible within that very limited framework will raise a host of other issues and/or further cover up what's really going on; but at least it might result in greater protection for the women and people, or, as you also said, might make people think and realize that they need to empower themselves via knowledge and building communal networks for example. But, as it stands now, it's not only a double-edged sword, it seems more like wishful thinking.

Considering it from the perspective of mechanical man, how societies are being born, grow, and then perish, I think that the stage of standing up against the oppressors/the psychopathic system and refusing to further cooperate is the one that holds the greatest potential. (Which of course explains the PTB's iron-fist measures and turning the initial idea around and back to yet again furthering their own agendas.) And when looking at how history works, how long it takes until at least some basic human measures take hold (and yes, with ugly things still going on behind the scenes) then, in the case of India, yes - assuming there was enough time for it - it would take lots of time for something as ingrained as the caste system to be abolished. And of course, the next system that could potentially replace the old would be the same at the core, just with a more agreeable mask to make people think 'it's all better now'. So eventually my point is the issue of the ever-repeating time-loop humanity is in. It is and will always be the same in 3D STS and that is frustrating.

From the article of the story of the rape:

An estimated 25,000 women are murdered each year by families who view their choice of mate as inappropriate

And we expect justice from a country who accepts this? Who consider women like cattle? We expect some justice from a society who thinks that women are responsible of their rape? Who cares about them. While they are talking about this case other women are been raped and widows are killed or killed themselves and young girls have to prostituted themselves. Nothing will change when a society respects more a cow than a woman, sorry to say that.

There is no justice, not in India, not in Spain, nor anywhere. It is all the planet who is corrupted, rotten. The firsts victims always are kids and women. I don't feel compassion for the rapists of women nor for the rapists of little kids.

Yup, same here, I don't see how trying to feel compassion for these people is the way to go. Understanding what they are and trying to find ways to properly deal with them, yes.

This brings to mind a former teacher of mine. In his New Age fluff he honestly went to great lengths to explain to the class of students how it was initially very hard for him to feel any type of compassion for rapists and pedophiles but how, in his subsequent 'visionary revelations' he 'realized' that what the rapist is doing, what the pedophile is doing, what the soldiers are doing on the battlefield killing each other, that all of this was in fact an 'act of love', and that 'there is no evil, only love'. And he reveled in this to him deep spiritual understanding.

 

[seek10]

From the article of the story of the rape:

An estimated 25,000 women are murdered each year by families who view their choice of mate as inappropriate

And we expect justice from a country who accepts this? Who consider women like cattle? We expect some justice from a society who thinks that women are responsible of their rape? Who cares about them. While they are talking about this case other women are been raped and widows are killed or killed themselves and young girls have to prostituted themselves. Nothing will change when a society respects more a cow than a woman, sorry to say that.

It is a situation, I think, without exit. And very sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_case

Given the amount of outcry, the culprits not being influential ( in any sense), government screwed up the decision of air lifting her, possibly to her death, the culprits will be punished ( else population will be on the street, that no political party wants). In this case, they even will move fast to punish them, so that politicians can go back to their own games.

In Normal situation, no govt. person would have cared about this incident, which is what happened initially. That is the pathetic reality of the society. No body really wants to deal with corrupt, lazy police and police don't want to do any thing unless he has some thing in it . It is the people who made the difference in this case.

The new laws(hot lines they arranged ) some southern states passed in response to this is a good sign and I hope police will be more vigilant and react quick next time ( at least for some time).

The real monster that is responsible for violence against women in india is the evil combination of dowry system, poverty(so uneducation) and corruption ( political and police level). That probably won't be able to solved so easily. That needs changing every thing at the core of the system.

During the latest Israel's massacre of Palestine, one of the topics in india's most influential new group ( India Today) 'Does india should follow the example of Israel in punishing the terrorists'. The guy who wrote is one of the top most journalist. This pathetic model of following Israel as a role model for so called terrorists is a clear decadence of the media ( probably society ) too. This "follow Israel" model along with complete zionisation of the society is going for last 2 decades in gradual stages. In that context, current life imprisonment or death discussion seems to be taking political dimensions.

I am not sure of the western media's interest in it to the extent it is showing, though they jumped on the bandwagon little late. I hope this is the raise of the conscience of the western people to show the solidarity.