New Delhi Gang-Rape, Reactions and Cultural Pathology

[Gawan]

Fwiw it looks like society gets more crazy or media reports it. There is a new gang rape reported in India as well in a bus by supposedly six men:

_http://news.sky.com/story/1037351/india-six-held-over-new-gang-rape-on-a-bus

 

[seek10]

Fwiw it looks like society gets more crazy or media reports it. There is a new gang rape reported in India as well in a bus by supposedly six men:

_http://news.sky.com/story/1037351/india-six-held-over-new-gang-rape-on-a-bus

This latest case is more like a kidnapping and rape case, I think and speed with which police reacted to the case is phenomenal for Indian standards. I hope things will get better.

Yesterday I was thinking about what type of mind set created these scenario, that brought back some memories. I just want to mention with a hope to make sense of it.

One of sentence passionately repeated in india from post independence days is “The day woman can walk safely on midnight on the main street, India gets its real freedom”. That sums up the scenario for a long time.
Heck, I my self never felt comfortable walk midnight.

As for as safety in private citi buses are concerned, I don’t have good impressions. They are dangerous when there is no other passengers exist and particularly at night. Often buses are operated by influencial political people who often hire uneducated poor people( out of control rough people who can influenced by peers, drugs, associations). i.e not safe, particularly at night.

This reminds me of specific incident . One day our citi bus ( private operated) didn’t come and some body told us why ?. 2 citi bus drivers had a quarrel and they decided to fight and asked all the passengers to leave the bus and they did a head on crash context with buses. This is extreme case, only heard once. It is a shock to me. Bus owner will go and bribe the police, IF some passenger complains.

Govt. run buses are relatively safe, as they are govt. employees and fear of losing job to drink or had gang of friends sitting in the bus to do this type thing. Govt. buses has inspection routines by Govt. inspectors , they will get caught easily. Then out of citi buses are relatively less crowded, so less safe, but no choice except to use for poor/middle class people.

The victim in Delhi rape case is EXTREMELY bold given the circumstances, family status and the system. In the Delhi case, the bus operators are fishing for victims without permit , intoxicated, boldened by robbery of a male victim before this, that is at night. Still she fought back, spitted on the guy, gave the police report immediately, fought for life despite brutal injuries. For me, she seems to be like representing ( at some level), the frustration of the Indian woman.

Honest Public official’s life in india is not that glamourous/rewarding/respecting in a society that still runs on status/influence. Police don’t want to register the case, as that calls coming under pressure from the influential parties, politicians, manipulative bosses, corruption. Often, falling into this cross fire ( conscience vs corruption) means frequent transfers ( family dislocations, kids education disruptions, sometimes to villages without any basic amenities water, electricity,education ). That is where apathy accentuates.

After decades of fighting on dowry murders, govt. passed laws making it difficult for police to ignore these reports , that scared the dowry death culprits ( often they are the woman- mother in laws, sister in laws). None the less they often happen due to the influences. I keep hearing these deaths from my own relatives, which is very painful to digest.

This public attention gives the courage to woman to call police (in this cell phone age), police to put the case ( for fear of consequences ), courage for woman to spread this freedom to other areas of discrimination ( dowry cases , forced marriages, liquor/gambling addicted male violence etc.) . I hope female psychopath/sociopath influences will not hijack these movements and absorb to their benefits(which often happens, as the public memory fades )

Another problem is western influenced Media ( popular magazines, TV, movie) sexification. During these last 2 decades, it has gone beyond epidemic levels. This is unthinkable 2 decades back that contributes to this type of brutal behavior very easily. You can imagine the influence of this on a out of control intoxicated youth which doesn't give a damn to the consequences( as he already poor and justice can be influenced ). Unfortunately, no body is talking about this.

Cast related violence, influence intoxicated crimes against the woman is another dimension.

Probably that is the sign of the times, another form of ‘eat the flesh’-cannabalism.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

I just wanted to make an update on this thread with my current thoughts. Apparently the gang rape leader Ram Singh was found hanged in jail. His lawyer claims that he was killed (perhaps by the police) but the media is calling it a suicide. In this article, I read:

"He knew he was going to die anyway because we had and still have such a strong case against him," the murdered woman's 20-year-old brother told the Reuters news agency.

"I'm not very thrilled with the news that he killed himself because I wanted him to be hanged ... publicly. Him dying on his own terms seems unfair. But, oh well, one is down. Hopefully the rest will wait for their death sentence."

Although this is an understandibly emotional comment by the victim's brother, it points to the issue I brought up earlier in this thread (in bold below).

I tried to feel compassion for these men who raped and killed this woman, to see if I could look beyond what they have done and empathize with them.
I think my own reaction to seeing so many calls for their executions is strange, because I don't think they should be killed.
One might think I would want them to be killed, to punish them in the most severe manner, to make a public example of them, to send a message to others.

I know exactly what you mean Lisa, and several years a go I'd be right there with others who think they should all die and go to hell. But now, all I can see is that this is the world run by psychopaths and these men are the offspring of that world/society. That is a fact. So I'm trying to be logical about it -and it's very hard. So while trying to think logically I keep seeing these extremely hateful comments that keeps bringing me back to thinking, how are we acting any different if we want to torture these people, castrate them, and then kill them. Perhaps that will bring some relief to the family of the victims that they think some level of "justice" was served. But is it really justice? Or is it us just wanting to take the easy way out as humans? So we don't have to look at the deeper issues that plague us. To really face the disease (psychopathy) that would cause these people to do this horrid thing.

I think the victim's brother is now lost in hate and so are many others. Most people seem to want the 'quick fix', and basically revenge. I don't think the kill em' all/an eye for an eye mentality is going to help anything improve. There is a MUCH deeper issue (psychopathy/pathology in society) in this case that most people are failing to grasp. Imo, there needs to be a major re-examination of society as a whole in order to get anywhere.... the very things we discuss here.

 

[Laura]

I think the victim's brother is now lost in hate and so are many others. Most people seem to want the 'quick fix', and basically revenge. I don't think the kill em' all/an eye for an eye mentality is going to help anything improve. There is a MUCH deeper issue (psychopathy/pathology in society) in this case that most people are failing to grasp. Imo, there needs to be a major re-examination of society as a whole in order to get anywhere.... the very things we discuss here.

Of course. The problems are due to social programming, society, culture, etc. You might find two books very interesting: Becker's "Escape From Evil" and Fustel de Coulange's "The Ancient City." They both talk about what is foundationally wrong with society. Neither has the whole banana, of course, but they have pretty big pieces of the puzzle. And knowing how things got the way they are helps us to be able to think about how they could be otherwise. Because we do have to take human nature into account and it is pretty basic for people to perceive such behavior as deserving of death. And maybe it is. But like you say, that won't solve the problems.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Of course. The problems are due to social programming, society, culture, etc. You might find two books very interesting: Becker's "Escape From Evil" and Fustel de Coulange's "The Ancient City." They both talk about what is foundationally wrong with society. Neither has the whole banana, of course, but they have pretty big pieces of the puzzle. And knowing how things got the way they are helps us to be able to think about how they could be otherwise. Because we do have to take human nature into account and it is pretty basic for people to perceive such behavior as deserving of death. And maybe it is. But like you say, that won't solve the problems.

Thanks for the book suggestions Laura, I will put them on my reading list.

 

[seek10]

Another Rape and murder incident rocked India and there were LOT of viral protests all over the country. This case has lot more connections-2 decades of history of conspiracy at this hospital where this incident happened, politicians of ruling state government , corruption, history of murders, pornography, accusation of organ harvesting and so on. State (West Bengal) Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee (one of the opponent of Modi) initially tried to cover it up, tried to depict it as anti-bengali conspiracy etc. But when it went viral, changed the stance joined the protestors.

2024 Kolkata rape and murder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On 9 August 2024, Moumita Debnath, a trainee doctor at R. G. Kar Medical College in Kolkata, West Bengal, India, was raped and murdered in a college building. Her body was found in a seminar room on campus. The incident has amplified debate about the safety of women and doctors in India, and has sparked significant outrage, nationwide and international protests, and demands for a thorough investigation.[3][4][5][6][excessive citations]

Incident​

On the night of 8 August 2024, Debnath had dinner with her colleagues and retired in a seminar hall after a 36-hour shift in the hospital. At about 9:30 IST the following morning, her body was discovered in the seminar hall in a semi-nude state with her eyes, mouth, and genitals bleeding. She was later declared dead.[7] College authorities initially informed her family that she had committed suicide.[8]

An autopsy was conducted on 9 August and, after its completion, an unnatural death case was registered.[9][10]

Nuts and bolts of the history of the this medical college, culprit, political connections and the entire case. It is in Hindi , but you can enable English subtitles.

 

[Ant22]

Sorry to have to say this Lisa but 'men' that would do this, would likely get off on having photos of the victim to look at. These are 'men' without shame, remorse or conscience. I can't imagine anyone with even a remotely functioning conscience being able to do this.

This is an old thread but it stuck in my mind as it made a lot of noise in London due to a large Indian community living there. I bumped into this thread accidentally and decided to check if there's been an update of any sort. Turns out one of the perpetrators of the 2012 crime took part in a documentary before being executed for what he did. The above quote summed him up rather accurately and I can imagine the rest of them weren't much better. Here's a summary of what he said and a commentary about his attitude:

Along with three of the other attackers, Singh is now appealing against his death sentence. In 16 hours of interviews, Singh showed no remorse and kept expressing bewilderment that such a fuss was being made about this rape, when everyone was at it.

"A decent girl won't roam around at nine o'clock at night. A girl is far more responsible for rape than a boy," he said.

"Housework and housekeeping is for girls, not roaming in discos and bars at night doing wrong things, wearing wrong clothes. About 20% of girls are good."

People "had a right to teach them a lesson" he suggested - and he said the woman should have put up with it.
"When being raped, she shouldn't fight back. She should just be silent and allow the rape. Then they'd have dropped her off after 'doing her', and only hit the boy," he said.

Chillingly, he went on: "The death penalty will make things even more dangerous for girls. Now when they rape, they won't leave the girl like we did. They will kill her. Before, they would rape and say, 'Leave her, she won't tell anyone.' Now when they rape, especially the criminal types, they will just kill the girl. Death."

I had the long and shocking list of injuries the young woman had sustained, read out to him. I tried, really hard, to search for a glimmer of regret. There was none.

Reading his comments made me really angry. While I understand sometimes these things play out due to a larger cosmic drama, there may be some karma involved for example, but I personally am in favour of removing such garbage from the society. There are human rights, sure, but there are also human responsibilities. If you do not deliver on the latter you should not expect to be allowed a pass of any sort under the rules of the former. Keeping them around just brings more suffering and on the whole, creates even more nasty karma that later has to be paid for. And while I am a believer in second chances, I just don't see how anyone could possibly recover from this level of depravity.

One of the perpetrators was a minor when the crime was committed and only did 3 years in prison. A BBC journalist went to his home village to speak with his family and these words caught my attention:

"The news made me angry, but I was heart-broken as well. I couldn't believe what the police told me. He was a very sensitive child and would be scared to confront anybody in the village. I'm sure he fell into bad company in Delhi and was led into committing this shameful act," she says, teary-eyed.

"I'm not sure if I can forgive him. If he has committed this crime, he should be given a harsh punishment. He made us infamous in the entire village. My heart sinks when I think about the future of my daughters. Who will marry them now?"

Not even one word of empathy for the victim who suffered terrible injuries as a result of his crime. The only focus is on the impact the son's behaviour has had on them. No wonder the Work can only start at the level of an Obyvatel. The preoccupation with daily struggles and focus on basic survival make expanding the circle of interest of concern beyond the self very hard - if not impossible.

The problem of poverty being a breeding ground for crime isn't limited to India, although in India it seems to be made worse by their cultural programming and gender attitudes. Some time ago I watched an interview with Denzel Washington where he mentioned a little boy murderer nicknamed Yammy, due to his sweet tooth. He was later murdered by 14 year-olds from the same gang.

And with poverty rates dramatically increasing across the west due to the "cost of living crisis" I guess a part of the "fun" ahead will not only be the control measures imposed by the PTB, or the insanity of the extreme fractions of the left and right sides of the political spectrum, but also increased crime and violence. Then there is the engineered influx of immigrants, often from no-so-friendly places and we have a perfect storm brewing.