OCD = STS

[3DStudent]

Hello all, I feel it's time I write this, I've been thinking about doing so for a few weeks now. I just want to inform everyone about some of my observations in relation to reading about what an STS being is and the disorder Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). This is of course open to discussion and it is only my personal experiences in relation to what I've learned about STS in the Wave series and on this forum.

First we have what is said of the STS polarity. STS is the half of creation moving into imbalance, disorder, chaos, entropy, non-being, selfishness, black holes, primal matter, etc. STS are afraid of losing themselves and so try to keep parts of themselves and change everyone else to be like them. They are afraid of creation, they don't want to change or experience the unknown. They are very constricting, rigid, and routine. The phrase that STS takes the path of least resistance applies here. STS also can only see a part of the bigger picture, as they wishfully think. In short, this side is very limiting. I could go on, but I think most are aware of the definition of this polarity, and these descriptions should be sufficient in moving on.

Now what I've noticed as I've read in particular the Wave series where it describes deeply the STS polarity is that all of these descriptions explicate very accurately the disorder OCD. This is a disorder that I personally can trace from my very early childhood to the present. It was very shocking to have the description of STS fit with what I think is (unfortunately) at the core of myself, and probably the cause of a lot of my struggles. I'm not saying however that this is something totally horrible, I've taken steps to fix this problem such as medication and therapy. I'm fine, but, not fully efficient. I'm sure though a lot of techniques contained in the forum like self observation and the Work will help ultimately with this. I'm on Trapped in the Mirror in the psychology section of the recommended books and look forward to the esoteric section.

For those unfamiliar to OCD, it's an anxiety disorder composed of irrational, stupid, reckless, etc., obsessions (thoughts) or compulsions (actions). I won't go on with many of my personal symptoms, as they can be embarrassing, but some common ones are: checking, counting, collecting, repeating, and thought loops - which it seems are familiar here. Basically it's a fear of missing something, losing something, losing a part of oneself just as STS beings do. So people who suffer this disorder horde things, check repeatedly for malfunctions, count and recount, and get stuck in thought loops stressing over and over with doubt about something unimportant out of fear of losing a part of oneself. This is certainly disorder, chaotic, selfish, limiting, and keeping oneself in a static part of reality one fears leaving. So it was like a double whammy to first know that we are all STS beings here, but also that my personal struggle is defined as the epitome of STS. I'm not totally distressed here, but it was certainly a wake up call and motivation to try even harder to strive to learn myself and be more STO. I don't think it's that I'm totally a bad or selfish person, but when I found myself being described accurately, even if mostly in thought and not deed, it was a wake up call. Just knowing that my thoughts are so restricting and entropic is enough to want to work harder after reading the Wave. So, that is basically how I came to the conclusion that OCD = STS.

If anyone has comments or suggestions, they are welcome to share of course. I just felt it was a good idea to share this in case anyone can relate and hasn't figured out that OCD is dangerous, especially in relation to the esoteric sense of becoming an STO candidate. If I got something wrong here, I'm open to discussion, as this is not a rigid conclusion, and is only based on personal experience in relation to the ideas here. I look forward to any replies. Thank you.

 

[Laura]

I've read that OCD is a sort of neurosis and that psychopaths, for example, are never neurotic. It seems to me that OCD is a survival mechanism that "grows" in a chaotic world where the individual doesn't feel that they have any control over the chaos and it frightens them.

Just my thoughts at the moment.

 

[pete02]

Hi 3D,

I remember from your first post you were talking about this as well. I had told you I also considered myself OCD to an extent because I feel the need sometimes to make sure everything is perfect or organized or whatever it may be at the time. I never quite considered it the way you have though. I tend to look at things in life as to whether it produces a positive result or negative result. When I'm trying to make sure things are perfect I assume that people will notice it and it will produce a positive result so I have learned to live with it. Maybe I have just convinced myself that a bad habit is something good? But in your case it seems to really be troubling you to the point of frustration and that I'm guessing that is producing negative results.

I would think that just the fact that you have identified it as one of your 'programs' should be a good thing. Every time you catch yourself doing it you can be aware of it and eventually make a conscious choice to do otherwise. Without going into personal details, I can't imagine that these habits are producing negative results other than for the fact that you catch yourself doing it and get frustrated about it. I could be wrong. I guess my OCD is a little different than yours but in the end, it is harming anyone or creating negativity? If so, then it is something you need to take care of because to my understanding, if it produces negative results then it is closer to STS origin and is most definitely a problem.

If it is something that is just frustrating to you, I recommend laughter I find nowadays that I can laugh more easily at my mistakes than I ever could before. This is really helping me live a more stress free and productive life and I owe it all to the wonderful people helping me educate myself through books and websites! This is just my outlook on the whole thing, I hope it helped a little and wish you well my friend.
(ps: I read this post 3x just to make sure it was correct!! lol)

 

[anart]

I've read that OCD is a sort of neurosis and that psychopaths, for example, are never neurotic. It seems to me that OCD is a survival mechanism that "grows" in a chaotic world where the individual doesn't feel that they have any control over the chaos and it frightens them.

Just my thoughts at the moment.

I would tend to agree - it has always seemed to me to be a need to instill order and control in a disordered and out of control experience (life).

It was very shocking to have the description of STS fit with what I think is (unfortunately) at the core of myself, and probably the cause of a lot of my struggles.

Did you forget that we are all STS? STS is the 3D human experience as we know it on planet Earth - you are STS - I am STS - we are all STS. The most we can do in our current state is to become STO candidates, and all that entails.

 

[3DStudent]

Hello Laura, Anart, hey again Pete. Thanks for the replies.

I've read that OCD is a sort of neurosis and that psychopaths, for example, are never neurotic. It seems to me that OCD is a survival mechanism that "grows" in a chaotic world where the individual doesn't feel that they have any control over the chaos and it frightens them.

Just my thoughts at the moment.

I would tend to agree - it has always seemed to me to be a need to instill order and control in a disordered and out of control experience (life).

Yeah it would seem, and especially so in my case, that this is something developed in an early age to try to get some control over one's life. The thing is that it seems to bring about more chaos and fear. Like dissociating to separate trauma so that small parts can take the blows individually so to speak, this is perhaps another way of surviving by implementing rigid controls over what happens.

Did you forget that we are all STS? STS is the 3D human experience as we know it on planet Earth - you are STS - I am STS - we are all STS. The most we can do in our current state is to become STO candidates, and all that entails.

Yeah I know we are all STS here, like how we must eat other life to continue our existence. Sometimes though I think I "beat myself up" and think, "Why did I do that, I know better?" Perhaps it's just self-importance in thinking that I know this stuff and know better, I should be acting differently. I think It's just finally sinking in how much Work I have to do and how dire the situation is in the world.

When I'm trying to make sure things are perfect I assume that people will notice it and it will produce a positive result so I have learned to live with it. Maybe I have just convinced myself that a bad habit is something good? But in your case it seems to really be troubling you to the point of frustration and that I'm guessing that is producing negative results.

Yeah it seems that OCD can be beneficial sometimes, it can make you a hard worker, always on time, neat and cleanly, etc. In these cases it is positive, probably worth the trouble, and might be better labeled healthy perfectionism. I think it can be a good habit if it does indeed produce good results with little hassle on your part. But yeah, when you start wasting time needlessly over trivial things and getting caught up in worthless thought loops it becomes a problem.

I would think that just the fact that you have identified it as one of your 'programs' should be a good thing. Every time you catch yourself doing it you can be aware of it and eventually make a conscious choice to do otherwise. Without going into personal details, I can't imagine that these habits are producing negative results other than for the fact that you catch yourself doing it and get frustrated about it. I could be wrong. I guess my OCD is a little different than yours but in the end, it is harming anyone or creating negativity? If so, then it is something you need to take care of because to my understanding, if it produces negative results then it is closer to STS origin and is most definitely a problem.

Yeah it's definitely one of my programs, and seems it can encompass almost any situation. It's easy to spot though usually, because there's usually a negative emotional response and physical sensation in the stomach or heart areas. It's mostly mental obsessions, but sometimes it can be physically detrimental. Either way, I think it is negatively harmful by being a waste of time and producing negative emotions, and can even affect others subtly if one isn't being efficient. This is why I have identified it as under the STS hierarchy. If people are truly experiencing the negative effects of this, it's good to know where its origin stems from.

If it is something that is just frustrating to you, I recommend laughter I find nowadays that I can laugh more easily at my mistakes than I ever could before. This is really helping me live a more stress free and productive life and I owe it all to the wonderful people helping me educate myself through books and websites! This is just my outlook on the whole thing, I hope it helped a little and wish you well my friend.
(ps: I read this post 3x just to make sure it was correct!! lol)

Yeah I find my self sometimes laughing about it. I'll just kind of chuckle and wonder, "Why am I doing this?" I could certainly do it more often, it just takes realization of the truth of the matter. The people and information here certainly are helpful. I've been mostly reading the psychology list lately and its comforting when I come back here to the forum and use the search function to look for an answer that can give more specific personally relating information. Your post was indeed helpful, thank you. Good luck to you as well, and I too check my posts a few times :P.

 

[Psalehesost]

When I'm trying to make sure things are perfect I assume that people will notice it and it will produce a positive result so I have learned to live with it. Maybe I have just convinced myself that a bad habit is something good? But in your case it seems to really be troubling you to the point of frustration and that I'm guessing that is producing negative results.

Yeah it seems that OCD can be beneficial sometimes, it can make you a hard worker, always on time, neat and cleanly, etc. In these cases it is positive, probably worth the trouble, and might be better labeled healthy perfectionism. I think it can be a good habit if it does indeed produce good results with little hassle on your part. But yeah, when you start wasting time needlessly over trivial things and getting caught up in worthless thought loops it becomes a problem.

Positive only in terms of exterior "success". From the perspective of The Work, it also matters how things come about. And in this case it is through a process of Internal Considering - "man's inner predator" - imagination running one's mind. It is mechanical and beyond one's control. The real "you" doesn't do it - it follows from processes running by themselves beyond your control. In short, from the point of view of Work, there is never such a thing as a "good habit", if by "habit" one means something that proceeds automatically without conscious control - all such must eventually be smashed to make way for the beginning of conscious control. OSIT.

 

[pete02]

I believe you to be exactly right in my case Csayeursost. Ever since I replied before I've been thinking more and more about it and yes, it is definitely something that just proceeds automatically in me. Also one of my programs. I tried to make a light situation out of it but your absolutely right, I should identify with it as well and choose to make a conscious choice instead. Thank you for pointing that out. 3D I'm glad to hear from you again and thank you also for starting this thread! I have just started looking at my OCD a lil differently ;)

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I think there are probably levels of OCD. For example, Lobaczewski included anankastic (i.e. obsessive-compulsive) psychopathy as one of his personality disorders involved in ponerogenesis. Bernie Madoff, speculated by many experts to be a successful psychopath, showed some examples of OCD in the manner in which he ran his offices. On the lowest level, OCD isn't much more than stereotyped, rigid behavior, but on the highest level I think it's more creative.

 

[Laura]

I think that OCD in normal people can be different from OCD in psychopathic types.

OCD seems to be a sort of dissociation, kind of like counting sheep to go to sleep. It narrows the focus so that person is able to detach themselves from extraneous or unwanted thoughts. Thus, the person is able to sustain dissociation from general reality by intense focus on whatever they are obsessing about. You could describe this as a form of "reality transcendance." The person defends themselves from the chaos of the "real world" out there. It seems, in the end, to be a transformation of reality aimed at defending the ego/self from a perceived imminent failure of adaptation.

I know that when I am really stressed, I will clean or cook or something repetitive. For me, it never manages to shut out anything, I'm still completely aware of what is stressing me - and perhaps even continue to think about it - but having an activity gives me something to focus on so that I won't break down.

 

[3DStudent]

The real "you" doesn't do it - it follows from processes running by themselves beyond your control.

Yeah I guess if you're mechanically following a routine then it isn't the best for you even if it produces external positive results. It seems that combating the problem is all about control.

Thank you for pointing that out. 3D I'm glad to hear from you again and thank you also for starting this thread! I have just started looking at my OCD a lil differently ;)

Hey no problem, I thought it would be of benefit to others in similar situations. Nice to know that you've identified something to work on.

On the lowest level, OCD isn't much more than stereotyped, rigid behavior, but on the highest level I think it's more creative.

It seems it is rigid either way, which seems kind of the opposite of creative. I don't really see how it could be used for creativity, unless it depends on the innate creativity of the individual or their mood. Though I haven't yet read Political Ponerology.

It seems, in the end, to be a transformation of reality aimed at defending the ego/self from a perceived imminent failure of adaptation.

Yeah this sounds like a good description. One takes in their perceptions and organizes or analyzes them in their own rigid way to cope with them.

I know that when I am really stressed, I will clean or cook or something repetitive. For me, it never manages to shut out anything, I'm still completely aware of what is stressing me - and perhaps even continue to think about it - but having an activity gives me something to focus on so that I won't break down.

Yeah, the point seems to be whether one is conscious, so that it isn't dissociation and thus the problem can be combated directly.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

On the lowest level, OCD isn't much more than stereotyped, rigid behavior, but on the highest level I think it's more creative.

It seems it is rigid either way, which seems kind of the opposite of creative. I don't really see how it could be used for creativity, unless it depends on the innate creativity of the individual or their mood. Though I haven't yet read Political Ponerology.

I don't think it's rigid, because on a high level, OCD is directed consciously, like hyperactivity. A person with OCPD may obsess over germs and compulsively wash their hands. It's rigid because they cannot change it, have no control. On the other hand, a person who consciously uses this tendency will use it therapeutically, as Laura described. Or they may direct it to other pursuits, like research, art, thought, etc. It isn't rigid, because it can be changed, redirected, started, stopped, etc.

 

[Keit]

On the lowest level, OCD isn't much more than stereotyped, rigid behavior, but on the highest level I think it's more creative.

It seems it is rigid either way, which seems kind of the opposite of creative. I don't really see how it could be used for creativity, unless it depends on the innate creativity of the individual or their mood. Though I haven't yet read Political Ponerology.

I don't think it's rigid, because on a high level, OCD is directed consciously, like hyperactivity. A person with OCPD may obsess over germs and compulsively wash their hands. It's rigid because they cannot change it, have no control. On the other hand, a person who consciously uses this tendency will use it therapeutically, as Laura described. Or they may direct it to other pursuits, like research, art, thought, etc. It isn't rigid, because it can be changed, redirected, started, stopped, etc.

There is a saying that true genius requires a spark of insanity. Throughout the history most of the people who left a distinct creative mark had clear signs of OCD. It seems like only those with true passion for what they do have enough motivation and fire to dig deeper and create/invent or discover something truly creative. But, as always, the devil is in the details. As Approaching Infinity said, a person with OCD may obsess over something without awareness or control, while on the higher level the same activity (which externally may look the same) takes form of a directed preoccupation. And I think that this 'directed preoccupation' or 'having an aim' is the key difference.

Also, let's not forget another favorite OCD saying: perfection through repetition ;) How otherwise one can persist and continue walking on the path without being put down by mistakes, obstacles and failures? This kind of stubbornness can be observed in our world especially among those with OCD traits.


But also consider the following excerpt:

From Boris Mouravieff: Polar Opposites, or the Fifth Way of Love

A: "Passion" does not set one "free," quite the opposite!
Q: (L) But what if your passion is for knowledge?
A: That is not passion, it is soul questing.
Q: (L) What is it that gives some people this drive, this steamroller effect that they are determined to get to the absolute bottom of everything and strip away every lie until there is nothing left but the naked truth? What is the source of this desire?
A: Wrong concept. It is simply that one is at that point on the learning cycle. At that point, no drive is needed.
Q: (L) So, you more or less are there because some critical mass has been reached that 'jumps' you to the point where seeking truth is simply who you are? It defines the parameters of your being.

And it seems to me (and I obviously might be wrong) that sometimes a person who is at the 'soul questing' point on the learning cycle might look exactly like a person who exhibits OCD traits.

 

[3DStudent]

I don't think it's rigid, because on a high level, OCD is directed consciously, like hyperactivity. A person with OCPD may obsess over germs and compulsively wash their hands. It's rigid because they cannot change it, have no control. On the other hand, a person who consciously uses this tendency will use it therapeutically, as Laura described. Or they may direct it to other pursuits, like research, art, thought, etc. It isn't rigid, because it can be changed, redirected, started, stopped, etc.

As Approaching Infinity said, a person with OCD may obsess over something without awareness or control, while on the higher level the same activity (which externally may look the same) takes form of a directed preoccupation. And I think that this 'directed preoccupation' or 'having an aim' is the key difference.

Thanks, I see now how the effort and conscious application of it would not be rigid. If there's an aim and purpose for doing something, it would seem that it would not be a problem or disorder, since in the end it is something one is striving for, osit.

 

[obyvatel]

Dr Daniel Amen who has pioneered brain imaging as a diagnostic tool to treat psychiatric disorders considers OCD type disorders to be primarily caused by problems in the part of the brain called the cingulate gyrus. The cingulate gyrus is said to be related to "cognitive flexibility" of the brain and also the ability to shift attention from one subject to another. When this part of the brain is overactive, the brain can get locked up on thoughts or behaviors and may result in OCD or other obsessive or compulsive type behaviors like eating disorders, addictive behaviors, illogical oppositional behavior in children/adolescents etc.
To me controlling obsessive compulsive tendencies for "higher purposes " seems like a contradiction of terms. If I can control it then it is no longer obsessive or compulsive in nature. Sometimes while trying to solve a technical problem my mind would be locked up on that particular topic for hours and I would continue thinking about that problem while doing other things quite mechanically. Ultimately, irrespective of whether I am able to "solve" the problem or not, I always feel a significant drainage of energy. I do not know if this would be considered as "directed pre-occupation" or "having an aim" in the proper sense of the term but after having become aware of this tendency of mine, I consciously try to avoid getting into this "locked up" state. I have observed that if I can "unlock" and put my awareness elsewhere (like other thoughts or being present in whatever other activity I am engaged in) and come back to the problem later, quite often the solution to the problem appears more easily.
IMO we need to be careful about distinguishing between motivation and obsession/compulsion. My current thinking is that true creativity is possible with cognitive flexibility which is the opposite of obsessive or compulsive tendencies. A balance is perhaps to be maintained between the two extremes of getting locked up or moving too quickly (like attention deficit). Since I have a natural tendency to "lock up" - I consciously try to find balance on the other side. FWIW

 

[RedFox]

Funny you should mention getting "locked up" in something like that. I hadn't made the connection with that state of mind and my OCD before!
It use to serve me quite well whilst programming computers (something I haven't done for years now), but over the years that mode has reached the point where it can be extremely draining to the point where I'd start breaking things/making things worse rather than creating.
This seems related to the emotional content behind it, the more stressed/angry/frustrated I am, the more destructive to a project that "locked in" mode becomes.
And because I'm fixated on the project, the more I break it, the more stressed/angry/frustrated I get the more I break it. Good example of a negative thought/emotion/energy (draining) cycle. My over all ability to observe/overview a situation diminishes in proportion to the build up of negativity.

So to add to this, I think the self observing element along with the aim is extremely important. To see if your tying all your energy up in knots, or not.