OCD = STS

[shellycheval]

Quote from: Approaching Infinity on May 19, 2009, 02:38:40 PM

It isn't rigid, because it can be changed, redirected, started, stopped, etc.

I see this as a confusion in perception of OCD. If behavior is "compulsive" then by definition it cannot be stopped or changed, and does not fit the classic diagnosis of OCD. OCD is an extreme form of attachment/addictive behaviors that appear to be done for the reason other addictive behaviors are done--to keep away all other thought and emotions--ease pain.
Manic energy which can appear OCD-like at times, on the other hand, is often associated with creative processes and discoveries, but mania and OCD are not the same.

I agree with
Posted by: obyvatel

To me controlling obsessive compulsive tendencies for "higher purposes " seems like a contradiction of terms. If I can control it then it is no longer obsessive or compulsive in nature. Sometimes while trying to solve a technical problem my mind would be locked up on that particular topic for hours and I would continue thinking about that problem while doing other things quite mechanically. . . . IMO we need to be careful about distinguishing between motivation and obsession/compulsion. My current thinking is that true creativity is possible with cognitive flexibility which is the opposite of obsessive or compulsive tendencies.

shellycheval

 

[3DStudent]

Sometimes while trying to solve a technical problem my mind would be locked up on that particular topic for hours and I would continue thinking about that problem while doing other things quite mechanically.

This seems related to the emotional content behind it, the more stressed/angry/frustrated I am, the more destructive to a project that "locked in" mode becomes.

I've found myself using that word locked in the past few weeks too. It's like you get locked into or stuck in a certain behavior or thought. "I've locked myself" into a certain thought or behavior that is irrational, and similarly become mechanical and stuck in that mode of thinking.

I have a bookmarked article that is pretty helpful if you catch yourself in these situations. I haven't used it as presented, but the info sits in the back of my mind. Like obyvatel was saying, it mentions leaving the problem and going on to other things. The link is _http://www.hope4ocd.com/foursteps.php

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Quote from: Approaching Infinity on May 19, 2009, 02:38:40 PM

It isn't rigid, because it can be changed, redirected, started, stopped, etc.

I see this as a confusion in perception of OCD. If behavior is "compulsive" then by definition it cannot be stopped or changed, and does not fit the classic diagnosis of OCD. OCD is an extreme form of attachment/addictive behaviors that appear to be done for the reason other addictive behaviors are done--to keep away all other thought and emotions--ease pain.
Manic energy which can appear OCD-like at times, on the other hand, is often associated with creative processes and discoveries, but mania and OCD are not the same.

I think that's a valid point, and clarifies the semantics, but I think it misses the spirit of the thread. Like the C's quote that Keit shared points out, there are qualitative differences between outwardly similar behaviors that come down to a difference in essence. OCPD is psychopathology, OCD is psychoneurosis that can go either way (to use Dabrowski's distinction between positive and negative "mental illness"). But as wiki says, "The phrase "obsessive–compulsive" has become part of the English lexicon, and is often used in an informal or caricatured manner to describe someone who is meticulous, perfectionistic, absorbed in a cause, or otherwise fixated on something or someone." That is, the "energy" that motivates OCD becomes consciously directed, or "sublimated". Just like you don't need to have multiple personalities to be somewhat dissociative, you don't need to be OCD to have some of the same tendencies. It is multilevel. Some people have rigid personalities and will never change (OCPD). Some may learn to grow and use the raw material of their instinctive substratum to develop towards a consciously directed end. The two ends of the spectrum are fueled by the same fire, albeit alchemically transformed and thus qualitatively different.

 

[Vladimir]

To get back on first post in this topic...

As Anart said, Earth is STS. If you have OCD or OCPD than you are have STS character structure in STS world - so to speak. Every PD is necessary STS.
"Orthodox - psychoanalytical" view would be: etymologically, these structures have root in 2y - 4y childhood (famous anal - membership phase) where they learned how to rake care of their body products. Kid is afraid to lose integrity of body and thus starts to learn what and HOW to deal with it. In pathological version, this HOW is
very strict - demanding from parent who wants everything to be perfectly clean. In later development, kid will also incorporate (negative introject) parent's
demand for being good boy - pretty girl in sense that they don't have to much freedom for expression or possibility to make - something wrong. If you do something wrong - you are punished (this is common for basically all PDs and other pathologies). In case of OCPD - kid is then programed with script to do "like this and this" - to make it perfect in first attempt - otherwise you are wrong / lousy / week itd....Kid will repress feelings and instead will develop a new character structure where there is always need to be perfect - but not because of just parents - rather because of fear of repressed emotions and thus Personality will be (maybe till rest of the life) in constant hurry to satisfy parent's need to be clean and perfect and fear from himself - real "I"(notice that this is not perfection in narcissistic PD). Body structure is very rigid (fear of freedom/free expresion/ love) because muscular system needs to keep emotions. There is no clean energy - flow - no deep breath.

In order to get back in "original state" or better to say in state of higher integration of Persona (good boy - pretty girl plus scripts), Ego/ Personality (charachter structure), Body/Self (repressed emotions of "inner child"), person need to basically go through process of development again - but backwards. Alone if possible - psychotherapy - or miracle. Your choice - more or less.

:D

Addendum: OPD can have similar story but they are more locked in 2 - 4 y. phase and obsessive behavior can be just compensation/defence for some other underlying problems. It is easier to have power over shelf or collect papers to infinity and thus have "control" than to look your self and your life directly.

Addendum 2: If you are just cleaning kitchen it is not necessarily OC trait. When gets disturbed Self symbolically tends to "recollect". Mechanical drive for cleaning is (healthy) aggression provided to constructive means.

:)
structures.

 

[shellycheval]

. . . "The phrase "obsessive–compulsive" has become part of the English lexicon, and is often used in an informal or caricatured manner to describe someone who is meticulous, perfectionistic, absorbed in a cause, or otherwise fixated on something or someone." That is, the "energy" that motivates OCD becomes consciously directed, or "sublimated". Just like you don't need to have multiple personalities to be somewhat dissociative, you don't need to be OCD to have some of the same tendencies. It is multilevel. Some people have rigid personalities and will never change (OCPD). Some may learn to grow and use the raw material of their instinctive substratum to develop towards a consciously directed end. The two ends of the spectrum are fueled by the same fire, albeit alchemically transformed and thus qualitatively different.

Agreed. As a handicap of my formal education, I still sometimes attend to the most literal definitions of words when writing and forget to keep written discussion more conversational. Yes, I see what you mean the "two ends fueled by the same fire," in that the behaviors and energy that fuel them are part of a continuum of human behaviors. I have behaved in an OCD manner in the past like repeatedly checking the door when leaving to see if it was locked, but it was 3 times not 30 or 100, and obsessively tearing my toenails off too short until they bled and I couldn't walk without limping, but when I made some lifestyle changes and had the perception of gaining more control of my life, these behaviors faded and remain away. Although I did not fall in the clinically diagnosable range of OCD I did exhibit OCD behaviors by misdirecting my energy in a futile loop of "doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." And yes, I was overlooking the "spirit of the thread." thanks
shellycheval

 

[3DStudent]

As Anart said, Earth is STS. If you have OCD or OCPD than you are have STS character structure in STS world - so to speak. Every PD is necessary STS.

It seems OCD and I assume other disorders are a source of food for 4D STS in that they tend to produce negative emotions and simply interfere with the individual's life in the end. Interesting post Vladimir ;).

...but when I made some lifestyle changes and had the perception of gaining more control of my life, these behaviors faded and remain away.

Yeah it seems when you leave the symptom and thing which triggered the response, you don't and even can't produce the behavior anymore. This probably happens more with a drastic change in lifestyle, while the common things like doors remain with us.

 

[Vladimir]

As Anart said, Earth is STS. If you have OCD or OCPD than you are have STS character structure in STS world - so to speak. Every PD is necessary STS.

It seems OCD and I assume other disorders are a source of food for 4D STS in that they tend to produce negative emotions and simply interfere with the individual's life in the end. Interesting post Vladimir ;)

Every disorder is mechanism for energy production. We have slaughterhouses they have disorders. Autonomy of a character is way out this slaughterhouse.
To get idea what"Autonomy" means I would recommend you to read two books:

Eric Berne - Games People Play
Eric Berne - What do you say after helo?

These two give simple preview on ("unnecessary") complexity of Personality/Ego and on dynamics of "games - scripts and patters of behavior - which are used for production of negative emotions. Anti-thesis is also offered - no games,no scripts just long way to Autonomy.
:)

 

[3DStudent]

To get idea what"Autonomy" means I would recommend you to read two books:

Eric Berne - Games People Play
Eric Berne - What do you say after helo?

Thanks, right now I'm tackling the psychology section of the recommended reading list, but I'll check them out.

 

[Laura]

As a handicap of my formal education, I still sometimes attend to the most literal definitions of words when writing and forget to keep written discussion more conversational.

Getting a little "OCD" there, are we???

 

[shellycheval]

:)Indeed! I'm still amazed at how fast the younger teachers can whip up a 4 paragraph email reply to a student. While I've gotten better over the years, I still find myself reading my writing out loud, replacing words that are not quite right, and editing for unity, organization, content, and clarity as if it were a mini essay!!! Finally pushing myself to just "chat," (more or less) here at SOTT has helped me look at writing as conversation as well as composition. I still think the telephone is an amazing piece of technology--that we could be thousands of miles apart and still hear each others voices and talk to each other in "real" time!!!! Texting looks like a lot of work for so few words, and Twitter is what the birds at the feeder outside my window do! This email only took me eight minutes to write! "Progress not perfection."
shellycheval

 

[obyvatel]

I read somewhere that an enlightened man's actions can seem similar to that of a mad man. This statement perhaps finds support in books and first-hand accounts of the lives of many spiritual teachers from India (especially those on the devotional path) who displayed idiosyncrasies and behavior which would easily be characterized as a psychological disease if seen in common people. Here I am referring to more traditional types of teachers who did not ostensibly seem to chase after name and fame and were quite unlike many "gurus" that people here in the US are perhaps more familiar with . Still I defer to the general consensus that these teachers were "enlightened" men. Personally I have little idea as to what being "enlightened" really means.
I also read an interesting description of two different Taoist approaches towards alchemy called the "fire" and "water" schools from Bruce Frantzis's books . Both the methods fundamentally approach the problem of alchemy from the aspect of "Chi" flow and progressively dissolving blockages in the various bodies (physical, emotional, mental ...) primarily through sitting and moving meditation practices. The "fire" school practices are forceful and like fire burns away all obstacles from the path to reach the ultimate goal. The "water" school approach is more gentle and dissolving in nature where the ultimate goal is reached in a more wholistic way. The obsessive methods used in the "fire" approach often cause significant physical damage as reported by the author.
I may be off-base but it seems to me that in terms of spiritual paths as described by G, the ways of the fakir, monk and yogi are more likely to require and even encourage obsessive characteristics due to their emphasis on developing one center. From 4th Way teachings, the general goal seems to be to balance the working of different centers. So can it be said in general terms, that 4th way practices requires one to be more flexible as opposed to obsessive ? I understand that a strong motivation to do the Work could also seem like an obsessive trait to others unless it is very carefully hidden from public view inside the strategic enclosure. So here too perhaps the aim and the specific context would determine whether something that may appear obsessive is "useful" or not.

 

[agni]

Any takes on how to deal with OCD ?

I suspect (pretty sure) I might be a OCD.

For an example, each morning before leaveing to work, I have to go back and check if iron is off. Even if I clearly unplug iron after ironing & say to myself that no need to check. I still do before I live the premises.

There are many other behaviors/actions of similar nature.

Any suggestions on how to deal with it ? It gets pretty tiring & annoying.

 

[Jacques]

Re: Any takes on how to deal with OCD ?

I suspect (pretty sure) I might be a OCD.

For an example, each morning before leaveing to work, I have to go back and check if iron is off. Even if I clearly unplug iron after ironing & say to myself that no need to check. I still do before I live the premises.

There are many other behaviors/actions of similar nature.

Any suggestions on how to deal with it ? It gets pretty tiring & annoying.

Hi Agni.

You can have a look at that post where Nomad give a link about OCD:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10785.msg76807#msg76807

 

[3DStudent]

Re: Any takes on how to deal with OCD ?

That article has a lot of helpful tips. You just gotta realize that it is irrational and you'd rather not get stuck having to check things. When you unplug it, be consciously aware of it or even say something like, "I've unplugged it, it would be silly to check it again." When you get ready to leave you'll remember the action, what you said, and the fact that it's pointless to check it. Try to anticipate these "attacks" and head them off because you know that they'll be encountered. Like the C's say, expect attack, know the modes, and how to counteract it. In my thread, "OCD = STS" (_http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12424.0) I've equated OCD with an aspect of the STS polarity, which seems to be a fear of loss of self. To me it seems that we fear losing some tangible item, opportunity, or thought; in general control over one's environment as Laura has stated.

Recently I've been checking some post-parking things in my car. I make sure the lights are out, it's in park, and the e-brake is on. I think you just gotta hit the point where you won't deal with the stress, emotions, and silliness anymore; being conscious and aware in the moment. I think also that we develop symptoms more for everyday things we do. Our routines can be very constrictive and tend to produce these symptoms as we mechanically move about through our day. Granted, some things are unlikely to be changed easily, I think that removing some of the monotony can remove the problems. It's the rigid schedule of linear time I think that locks some of us into these things, some creativity and less limitation could help free us from this. Osit

 

[agni]

Re: Any takes on how to deal with OCD ?

Thank you guys. Insightful topics indeed & I've read Four steps on the link Nomad provided towards dealing with OCD.
Looks like it's going to be an exciting challenge to overcome this.

Now I know how to channel energy of OCD properly. I will re-direct it to push Search button several times before posting a question.