Opinions

[joejoeba]

True it's like a minor version of the chronosynclastic infundibulum (K.V. concept).
happening mainly subtextually during each and every interpersonal transaction. Subliminal opinions forms even on sight, guiding our every move on a trail of trial and error, appeasing the drive of the chemical needs of the hungry mass of cells that are we and all else.

"Having an stong opinion is the essence of the comi-tragic clown"- JM

 

[Amanecer]

People do not understand that sincerity must be learned. They
imagine that to be sincere or not to be sincere depends upon their desire or
decision. But how can a man be sincere with himself when in actual fact he
sincerely does not see what he ought to see in himself? Someone has to show
it to him. And his attitude towards the person who shows him must be a right
one, that is, such as will help him to see what is shown him and not, as
often happens, hinder him if he begins to think that he already knows
better.

"This is a very serious moment in the work. A man who loses his direction at
this moment will never find it again afterwards. It must be remembered that
man such as he is does not possess the means of distinguishing 'I' and
'Ouspensky' in himself. Even if he tries to, he will lie to himself and
invent things, and he will never see himself as he really is. It must be
understood that without outside help a man can never see himself.

After reading this, it seems to me that opinions are not only derived from emotional programs, upbringing, etc. but also from what "level" of understanding/consciousness we are currently at. Expressing opinions perhaps creates an opportunity for others to help us "see" ourselves in a way that we otherwise would not. It does require a certain amount of humility to accept that our "opinion" may be inaccurate or distorted. Opinions come from perceptions, which come from what we believe to be the "truth"(which is why accuracy of facts is so important, I guess!) I noticed an interesting scenario with my 2 year old son that illustrates the first point:
I show my son a tomato, he says "Apple!" I say, no, it is a tomato. He says "no, apple!!" This happens with any object that is red and round. They are all apples to him. His mind cannot conceive that there are many different names for red, round objects. I will continue to teach him, of course, that a tomato is not an apple. When his mind has developed, he will see and believe. I guess, that is what I am doing here on this forum. I am still learning.....perhaps I may say that an apple is a tomato at some point on this forum. I hope someone will kindly help me "see"....and I will try to humbly accept it! A child will fall and stumble many times before he learns to walk. I am not saying that we should not study, think, or do the hard work of obtaining knowledge. Maybe when stating "opinions" that really means; "I am humbly basing this on the knowledge that I have at this point - "I" openers are welcomed!

"Over the ages, it's been noted that merely observing the mind that's being watched becomes more humble and begins to relinquish its claims to omniscience- a growth in awareness can then take place. With humility comes the capacity to laugh at oneself and increasingly be less the victim of the mind and more its master. From thinking that we "are" our minds, we begin to see that we have minds, and that it's the mind that has thoughts, beliefs, feelings, and opinions........Prevailing thought systems are received, absorbed, identified with, and, in due time, replaced by new ideas that have become fashionable to us. As we place less value on such passing notions, they lose their capacity to dominate us, and we experience progressive freedom of- as well as from- the mind. This, in turn, ripens into a new source of pleasure; fittingly, the pleasure of existence itself matues as one ascends the scale of consciousness." Power vs. Force

 

[ark]

If someone asks you: what is the capital of France? Do you answer:

IMHO it is Paris ????

Instead of sharing "opinions" isn't it better to share data and conclusions drawn from these data?

Is it so difficult to get rid of all our opinions? Just throw them into the Recycle Bin and press the button "Empty Recycle Bin"?

Once we get rid of our opinions - what remains is "knowledge". We can then better see how inadequate it is.

 

[Iconoclast]

maybe this is of interest to someone

the definition of 'opinion' according to Black's Law Dictionary 1st Edition (1891) and 2nd Edition (1910) (Pages 1 and 2)
and as a follow-up the definition of 'inference' (pages 3 and 4)

 

[arkmod]

May be THIS is of interest to someone:

It is a cliche of modern political culture - especially in the United States, for reasons I have touched on before - that everyone has, or should have, a right to their own opinions. I'm afraid I don't find this proposition as uplifting as some of you do: It's not that I'm against rights; but I do not care much for opinions. To describe someone's thoughts as opinions is to degrade them to the level of what, as we say, they 'happen to think', which implies that any opinion is as worthy as any other that may momentarily swim through your mind; but in that case all opinions are boring and - unless we are engaged in the dark arts of marketing - we should not waste our time on them.

The tricky but vital point is that holding opinions is not the same as thinking; indeed it may even be its absolute opposite. The thinker is not the same as the opinion-holder; in fact they ought to be bitter antagonists (though they may be fighting their fight within one and the same person). The more opinions you have, it seems to me, the smaller your chances of thinking. The worry about the internet is that by enabling opinions to proliferate like weeds, it may threaten the survival of thinking. For thinking, as many philosophers have said, takes time; and opinions are for those who cannot or will not take the time to think.

It is not surprising that the word most often associated with 'opinion' is 'humble': opinionising, as distinct from thinking, has a lot to be humble about.

Source:
"From the UK, philosopher Jonathan Ree" - On BBC Radio 3

 

[Amanecer]

If someone asks you: what is the capital of France? Do you answer:

IMHO it is Paris ????

Instead of sharing "opinions" isn't it better to share data and conclusions drawn from these data?

Is it so difficult to get rid of all our opinions? Just throw them into the Recycle Bin and press the button "Empty Recycle Bin"?

Once we get rid of our opinions - what remains i s "knowledge". We can then better see how inadequate it is

If I am understanding you correctly... If someone asks me if something is an apple, I should state "Yes it is an apple", based on my knowledge. Instead of stating it as an opinion. 'That does make more sense when you put it that way! Since reading this thread on "opinions", I have been noticing how much I actually "use" this phrase(or one similar to it) I've just realized while writing this, that it is less threatening for me to state something as an opinion. I think that is a result of my "ego" (embarassing to say) not wanting to feel "inadequate" or "vulnerable" for being wrong. I am thinking this is an emotional program that I need to work through. IMO

 

[vinny]

there is a flip side to this, which can often be seen when 'positive language' is used in the mass media, in order to talk 'positively' about something - ie leaving no room for doubt, or presenting a hypothesis as undisputed fact. when actually that is not the case, and there is data available which contradicts the 'fact', or there is a hole in available data, which leaves the 'fact' open to the possibility of being false.

Isn't that often the case? how often can you truly say that you have ALL the possible facts available? without claiming to be omniscient?

So I think we have to be careful in our definitions, avoid presenting opinions, and work to present hypotheses, but always with the reservation that further data may come to light to change the picture. So with that in mind, the weight of responsibility is always on the truth-seeker to find as much pertinent data as possible.

In the case of "it is an apple", I think it is perfectly reasonable to take the data of the size/colour/smell/appearance and say "yes, it is an apple", with a high probability of being correct!

Other things may not be so clearly defined, so it might be difficult to talk about them without entering into the realm of speculation - which is ok, as long you are aware that this is speculation (starting with opinions?), which may need to be followed up with further analysis/investigation. Having a psychological knowledge of how we become attached to our 'opinions' and blinded to any conflicting data, is a good step to getting 'over it' and moving beyond opinion to something more concrete. This is my understanding of it, so far.

 

[dant]

Ok, I give in. Mea Culpa, purge the poison from my body and mind!

Opinions are simply subjective, the "ramblings of an uncertain mind",
degrades truth, and provides no basis in fact, and is of dubious quality.
Opinions should be kept where it belongs, purged from the confines of
the deepest recesses of the mind. Get informed. Gather true facts.
Only then, when you are absolutely certain, reveal it at the right moment.

I will not add any more modifiers, pre, mid, or post fixes which are that of
IMO, IMHO, OSIT, or any other. Yes, OSIT included because even with OSIT,
the quality of the statement may not be of the highest quality or may have no
factual basis and no, I will not qualify this statement with a postfix modifier. :)

---
"Opinions are empty, the devil is in the details." - Willma Shakepear

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Opinions are simply subjective, the "ramblings of an uncertain mind",
[...]
Get informed. Gather true facts.
Only then, when you are absolutely certain, reveal it at the right moment.

But isn't it the opposite? Aren't opinions the ramblings of a mind that is certain? The way I understand it is, opinion is a proclamation that something IS one way or another - not because the available data says it is, but because your mind decided to hold an absolute conviction. Saying "I believe..." is no different than saying "In my opinion" - and a belief is nothing more than an assumption.

We know that freedom of religion is touted very loudly in US - the freedom of worship, the freedom to believe and assume anything you like, to hold any opinion. But this just means the freedom to be ignorant, and to be an idiot. Of course no one talks about the utter uselessness of assumptions, beliefs, and opinions, and that they only lead people astray, further from truth. To the contrary, we're encouraged to be proud of our right to be idiots, our right to belief, to worship, to hold opinions.

It seems to be a pathocratically-corrupted concept that seems to be derived from a related concept, that actually means the opposite. The initial idea was probably "freedom of thought". But as arkmod noted previously in the passage he quoted, "thought" is the direct opposite of "opinion". A synonymous sentence to that is - "seeking truth" is the direct opposite of "having beliefs". While having freedom of thought does, as part of what that implies, mean having freedom of opinion as well, it does not make it a great idea! That's like saying that you have the right to swim underwater for as long as you want - which implies the right to drown too of course, but that doesn't mean that we should all go ahead and drown, and be proud of our right to drown. We'd be totally missing the point - but I guess that is whole point huh? :P

So when anyone speaks about how proud they are that we in America have the right to be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, or any other religion - they are simply listing the many different ways we have to drown, and being proud that you can choose any of them and go ahead and drown if you want - see you're free! Of course the right to swim underwater for as long as we want is vital - it lets us explore what's underwater and understand things better - it is NOT important because we also have the right to drown while we're at it, although that IS an option.

So it seems the pathocracy redefined the right to swim for as long as you want to mean "the right to drown in any manner you wish", and convinced everyone to be proud of it too! Genius! Freedom of thought = Freedom of opinion? Only if swimming=drowning.

Dant, as to why I disagreed with your statement, it's because as I understand it, ignorance vs knowledge isn't the same as uncertainty vs certainty. I'd agree if you say "The ramblings of an ignorant mind" and maybe that is what you meant?

 

[dant]

...
Dant, as to why I disagreed with your statement, it's because as I understand it, ignorance vs knowledge isn't the same as uncertainty vs certainty. I'd agree if you say "The ramblings of an ignorant mind" and maybe that is what you meant?

The quote "The ramblings of an ignorant mind" is what I meant.
Musta had a 'brain fart' in my mind at the time :(

Thanks for correcting that!

 

[M. Howard]

But isn't it the opposite? Aren't opinions the ramblings of a mind that is certain? The way I understand it is, opinion is a proclamation that something IS one way or another - not because the available data says it is, but because your mind decided to hold an absolute conviction. Saying "I believe..." is no different than saying "In my opinion" - and a belief is nothing more than an assumption.

This got my attention, as I've been pondering the comments of a [documented] psychopath responding to some criticism. He states, "I consider exposing cult lies/scams/psycho leaders to be a noble endeavor, BUT THAT IS OPINION OF COURSE." (Emphasis mine.) Some people undoubtedly use the word "opinion" to connote a temporarily-held set of ideas/theories about a given subject -- sort of like an hypothesis, but going forward on the assumption that it (and they) are correct, at least until proven otherwise. But the words of this individual, and I could be wrong here, seem to match up with the point you are making. Also, the certainty and absolute conviction of the assumption are REINFORCED by that last phrase.

Of course, knowing in advance that he's a psychopath gives a certain credence to the old saw that people are formed by their opinions.

 

[arkmod]

And this is a good example of why "opinions" are evil. Suppose you tell this person: "But your opinion is based on lies!" His answer will probably be: "I am not going to discuss with YOU MY opinions. Everybody is entitled to an opinion." End of conversation. Opinions, like lies, are tools used by psychopaths to manipulate people.

 

[OCKHAM]

opinion is a proclamation that something IS one way or another

This thread has a growth that keeps me going and your comment got me thinking about our brains a little more. We always assume from a pre-determined list of just [[two]] things it seems. Here is one to ponder.

Win / Lose
Light / Dark
Left / Right
Yes / No
In / Out
Life / Death
Love / Hate

I won't go any further just to say, we may have aversion disorder. We may only be looking into the arrow's point, and being forced to choose an alternate path while being blinded. If you look [behind] you, you have a million directions available. If you look forward, you only have two averted away to one side or the other, so the arrow does not pierce you.

We develop hypothesizes and choose one from the list, yet the result always has its opposite, and our brains must discern it.

It seems my comments are often too cryptic to understand, and I am sorry for that. It is hard for me to come out of the forest. I live for simplicity and hate the maze, another [disorder?].

Arkmod, nice to see you again. I agree, let's get rid of IMO. I started using it to sense its feeling, and would prefer to avert it now. Now, that does not leave only one answer, but millions of answers to ponder. Back into the maze, but you will be back.

Lies are just grains of sand that have no silt.

 

[Gaby]

I hardly use the word opinion in my native language, but that is because I was programmed to never have an opinion. Then when I first knew that IMHO meant in my humble opinion (I looked it up as it was used quite frequently), I kind of liked it a lot and adopted it quite mechanically. And then for the first time, I recall using the word "opinion" in my native language, I was translating it from english. So in both cases, using or not using the word opinion, was mechanical. Hmmm, good to know it.

And now that I recalled being raised to never have an opinion (which is more like a program of "never express yourself") I will post something I shared with another cass list regarding the "opinions" thread:

Laura Knight-Jadczyk escribio:

>Feedback? Observations? How many of you have used the "Everyone is
>entitled to their own opinion" as a discussion stopper? How many times has
>it been used on you? Any particular characteristics of the individuals who
>have used it on your? What about your own use of it?


The thing coming to my mind now is what XXXXX said about programmes about feeling unworthy or incapable
or whatever. Which is programs, something foreign in us.

As if the predator mind gets desperate once one is taking steps to defend our own destiny. So, programs of unworthiness is the predator mind making us feel that way, so hopefully it will be "left in peace" "Paralyzing opinions" more and less, so as to stagnate creativity, but the predator mind is something foreing in us, it is not our real selves, it is a "foreign instalation". But we forget that we are not being ourselves.

In words of Elan Golomb (Trapped in the Mirror):

Introject is the hostile foreigner that watches you with a
critical eye. It criticizes you with comments as "you're a failure"
and "why try"? Your feelings of depression strengthen its force. It
makes you discard appreciation and distrust affection. Its punitive
demands and paralyzing arguments stop you from trying to change. In
repeatedly silencing my introject I learned more about the struggle.
Eradication takes deliberate thought and effort. You need to identify
the introject as foreign to your self. If we see it as a non-self, an
identification that drives us to unacceptable roles, feelings, and
behaviors, we can work on it.

But one has to understand how the introject came to be in order to identify it as foreign to ourselves (know thyself).

All this learned negative opinions about ourselves "dictate" our lives. And what about our inner creativity, and how much in us is the foreign critical eye(predator mind)? Know thyself comes to mind. Seeing and understanding, so as to discern the foreign aspect of ourselves, and discovering our real inner-selves.

So this is related to the program of "never express yourself", courtesy of a narcissistic society.

 

[OCKHAM]

Yes, the mirror image of oneself. Elam is on target.

May we go a bit deeper, please?

Men and women are different in their perspectives of life. There is balance and feed.

The man is to pull the woman back in to balance.

The woman is to pull out the man to feed. [She is a maze hunter, vibration too, you feel it!]

So how do man and woman work it out and in, in unison? [A successful relationship]

Imagine two kites flying at the same time next to each other. In order for them to successfully not bump into each other, one has to balance, and one has to feed.

When accomplished, they fly as in a wave, next to each other, one feeding, and one balancing.

When you meet someone out in the maze, they might just flat run into you. It's all pathos.