Organic European Tobacco

[Wu Wei Wu]

There already is a Portuguese company selling tobacco leaves (natural and without chemicals but not organic) and sending them to France and other countries in Europe or elsewhere. It is labeled 'agricultural product' and seems legal.
I am waiting for an answer from this company to be sure that it is really legal.
If it is, I'd be interested in next year crop from your farmer acquaintance, Wu Wei Wu.
I'll let you know...

There are actually several farmers in Portugal who do business this way, so I probably know who they are. The trick is that none of them are all that responsive.

That's why we'd be first, in practice, to the market. Nobody really has a professional operation up yet.

Mr Premise, that is good advice. I will PM you. I don't know if the farmer would care for my advice on growing since I'm more of a front end business guy but it'd be worth a shot.

 

[Goemon_]

These are important comments.

Do these restrictions apply to tobacco? Or to tobacco products? Or to agricultural products?

They are all different categories.

If France bans imports on tobacco products, oh well, you can still ship it as an agricultural good as whole leaf. It would fall under the same category as shipping mint leaves and whatnot.

But if they ban tobacco the plant, that makes things harder. I didn't even know the EU countries could do that.

I really don't think so because it is illegal to grow it for yourself.
If you grow some tabacco you have to sell it to the state.

I have ask to "le guichet du savoir" which is a service provided by the library of Lyon that answer any of your question.

Complete answer in French here : _http://www.guichetdusavoir.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62589&sid=572ff0cad78119ce548d7e1007188ed4

They say it seems illegal to sell whole leaf of tabacco in France and that in any case they don't find any information that would indicate it is done in a legal way.
However they assure that you can grow your own for yourself.

 

[Joe]

In France, buying tabacco from a distance is apparently forbidden since the 5th of december 2014 and you can get 5 years of prison for doing that !
You have do buy it in tabacco shop and nowhere else.
Or you can buy 1 kg when you travel in another european country.
Or you can buy 250 gr when you travel outside of europe.

So I think you can count out French residents.

My 2 cents.

It's not illegal in France to buy tobacco, online or in person, from other EU countries.

 

[Goemon_]

It's not illegal in France to buy tobacco, online or in person, from other EU countries.

That is not what says the website of the French custom : _http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a10754-achat-de-tabac-et-de-cigarettes-sur-internet

"En France, la vente au détail de tabacs manufacturés (cigarettes, tabac à rouler, tabac à narguilé, tabac à priser...) est un monopole confié à l'administraon des douanes et droits indirects qui l'exerce par l'intermédiaire des débitants de tabac.

L'article 568 ter du code général des impôts, créé par la loi de finances rectificative pour 2009 (n° 2009-1674 du 30 décembre 2009) précise que la commercialisation à distance des tabacs manufacturés est interdite en France métropolitaine et dans les départements d'Outre-mer. Ainsi, l'achat de tabac sur Internet ou par téléphone est strictement interdit quel que soit le lieu d'implantation du site.

Vous seriez en infraction avec la loi si vous achetiez des cigarettes ou du tabac par correspondance.


Avertissement. Les tabacs achetés sur Internet, acheminés par voie postale ou porteurs express sont systématiquement saisis par les services douaniers."

"The selling of tabacco is a monopoly entrust to the custom administration which apply it by the intermediary of the tabacco shops [...] buying to the distance is forbidden in France [...] buying on the internet or by phone is strictly forbidden [...]


They talk about manufactured tabacco though.

 

[Wu Wei Wu]

This may be one of those situations without a concrete answer.

In Canada you aren't supposed to buy unregulated tobacco either, which is why everyone ships under the 'agricultural product' label and tapes the law onto the package. I've never had customs fight it there before.

No idea if French customs would. And I have no idea how they classify 'agricultural products'. If there are restrictions there too then it's surely a no go.

Regardless, it looks like Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, the UK, Ireland, and Norway are a go.

France may be a no go. Up in the air but clearly the state isn't a fan.

No idea about Italy, Germany, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Luxembourg, or the Baltics.

If anyone knows about these countries, chime in. It would be pretty useful to have a list where it's legal to sell and ship tobacco, either as a manufactured product or agricultural good.

 

[Joe]

It's not illegal in France to buy tobacco, online or in person, from other EU countries.

That is not what says the website of the French custom : _http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a10754-achat-de-tabac-et-de-cigarettes-sur-internet

"En France, la vente au détail de tabacs manufacturés (cigarettes, tabac à rouler, tabac à narguilé, tabac à priser...) est un monopole confié à l'administraon des douanes et droits indirects qui l'exerce par l'intermédiaire des débitants de tabac.

L'article 568 ter du code général des impôts, créé par la loi de finances rectificative pour 2009 (n° 2009-1674 du 30 décembre 2009) précise que la commercialisation à distance des tabacs manufacturés est interdite en France métropolitaine et dans les départements d'Outre-mer. Ainsi, l'achat de tabac sur Internet ou par téléphone est strictement interdit quel que soit le lieu d'implantation du site.

Vous seriez en infraction avec la loi si vous achetiez des cigarettes ou du tabac par correspondance.


Avertissement. Les tabacs achetés sur Internet, acheminés par voie postale ou porteurs express sont systématiquement saisis par les services douaniers."

"The selling of tabacco is a monopoly entrust to the custom administration which apply it by the intermediary of the tabacco shops [...] buying to the distance is forbidden in France [...] buying on the internet or by phone is strictly forbidden [...]


They talk about manufactured tabacco though.

That's not actually what they're saying. What they are saying is that the selling of cigarettes online in France is prohibited. It says nothing about someone in France buying cigarettes from other EU member states. The free flow (buying/selling) of goods between EU member states is a fundamental pillar of the entire EEC concept.

 

[Wu Wei Wu]

The free flow (buying/selling) of goods between EU member states is a fundamental pillar of the entire EEC concept.

This is my hope.

But is this enshrined in law, in practice by all EEC nations? If so, wouldn't it always be legal to ship the tobacco within the EU, no exceptions?

I suspect nations have their own particular laws that may make this unfeasible.

 

[Goemon_]

It's not illegal in France to buy tobacco, online or in person, from other EU countries.

That is not what says the website of the French custom : _http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a10754-achat-de-tabac-et-de-cigarettes-sur-internet

"En France, la vente au détail de tabacs manufacturés (cigarettes, tabac à rouler, tabac à narguilé, tabac à priser...) est un monopole confié à l'administraon des douanes et droits indirects qui l'exerce par l'intermédiaire des débitants de tabac.

L'article 568 ter du code général des impôts, créé par la loi de finances rectificative pour 2009 (n° 2009-1674 du 30 décembre 2009) précise que la commercialisation à distance des tabacs manufacturés est interdite en France métropolitaine et dans les départements d'Outre-mer. Ainsi, l'achat de tabac sur Internet ou par téléphone est strictement interdit quel que soit le lieu d'implantation du site.

Vous seriez en infraction avec la loi si vous achetiez des cigarettes ou du tabac par correspondance.


Avertissement. Les tabacs achetés sur Internet, acheminés par voie postale ou porteurs express sont systématiquement saisis par les services douaniers."

"The selling of tabacco is a monopoly entrust to the custom administration which apply it by the intermediary of the tabacco shops [...] buying to the distance is forbidden in France [...] buying on the internet or by phone is strictly forbidden [...]


They talk about manufactured tabacco though.

That's not actually what they're saying. What they are saying is that the selling of cigarettes online in France is prohibited. It says nothing about someone in France buying cigarettes from other EU member states. The free flow (buying/selling) of goods between EU member states is a fundamental pillar of the entire EEC concept.

Yes, it is what they're saying.

It may be clearer here : http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a12333-distance-sales-of-alcoholic-beverages-from-eu-to-france

They have translate this one in english.

[/quote]
Distance sales of alcoholic beverages from EU to France

Steps to be followed by professionals in other EU Member States wishing to sell alcohol and/or alcoholic beverages to individuals located in France
Definition and legal foundation
Distance selling to France

The distance selling transaction must meet all of the following criteria:

°The sale of alcohol and/or alcoholic beverages must be carried out by a professional located in another EU Member State
°The sale must be to an individual located in mainland France
°The excise goods shall already have been released for consumption in the Member State from which the goods are shipped
°French duties and taxes shall be payable upon the arrival of the goods in France
°The goods shall be shipped or transported to France, either directly or indirectly by or on behalf of the seller
°The process is limited to alcoholic beverages. Distance purchasing of manufactured tobacco products are forbidden in both mainland France and its overseas départements.

Applicable rules and regulations

Article 36 of Council Directive 2008/118/EC of 16 December 2008 concerning the general arrangements for excise duty and repealing Directive 92/12/EEC
French General Tax Code:
Art. 289 A, II of Art. 302 U bis, Art. 302 V bis and Art. 568 ter
Art. 50-0 A bis (concerning the tax representative) of Annex IV
Article 467 of the French Customs Code

[/quote]

So, the article is specially talking about the sales of alcohol from the E.U to France and they add the part I have put in bold about manufactured tabacco.

Now, that is what they (i.e. the French Custom) are saying.
I don't know if the European laws cancels the French laws. But, if they do, that don't mean the French authorities would not apply the French laws. And if they (the French authorities) do that, I guess you (the buyer) would have to sue them in an European court.

 

[Goemon_]

The free flow (buying/selling) of goods between EU member states is a fundamental pillar of the entire EEC concept.

This is my hope.

But is this enshrined in law, in practice by all EEC nations? If so, wouldn't it always be legal to ship the tobacco within the EU, no exceptions?

I suspect nations have their own particular laws that may make this unfeasible.

In France there is the story about the Social Security. If I understand correctly, with the European laws you are not forced any more to pay the Social Security in France. You can apply for it in another European country. The Buffalo Grill chain restaurant company has try to do it in 1996. It was attacked by the French Social Security (URSSAF), loses is case, had to do an appeal, loses again, and finally in 2007 win the case in front of the supreme court.

Now, there is a movement called the MLPS that can help you to follow the process to get out of the French Social Security.
So you can do it, but the French Social Security will still try to prevent you to do it by saying that it is not legal.

FWIW

 

[Joe]

That is not what says the website of the French custom : _http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a10754-achat-de-tabac-et-de-cigarettes-sur-internet

Now, that is what they (i.e. the French Custom) are saying.
I don't know if the European laws cancels the French laws. But, if they do, that don't mean the French authorities would not apply the French laws. And if they (the French authorities) do that, I guess you (the buyer) would have to sue them in an European court.

Well they also say

"Vous pouvez acheter du tabac manufacturé dans un État membre de la Communauté Européenne puis le rappporter à votre retour en France à la condition que ce tabac ait été acquis pour votre consommation personnelle (vos «besoins propres») et que le transport soit assuré par vous-même. Dans ce cas vous n'aurez pas à remplir de déclaration ni à payer de droits et taxes."

So how is is legal to go to Spain and buy as much tobacco as you want for personal consumption but you can't buy the same tobacco from the same place online and have them send it? It seems to me that this law which appears to have been passed Dec. 30th 2014 after lobbying by French tobacconists, is not only not defensible, but directly contravenes EU law on "buying goods in another EU member state"

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/travellers/within_eu/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/faq/taxation/faq_1179_en.htm#17

Since France is a part of the EEC, it has signed up to EEC taxation and single market laws and cannot simply pass local state laws that contravene EU law.

When buying tobacco from a German online store, for example, all duties and taxes are paid in advance and the tobacco comes with official seals making this clear.

 

[liam1310]

for anyone interested I just ordered organic Canadian virginia flue cured from this site
http://www.whole-leaf-tobacco.co.uk/Certified_Organic_Canadian_Virginia_Flue_Cured/p2180593_13059819.aspx

 

[Can Won]

Hi liam1310,
I order from that particular site and the organic canadian is very mild.
To bulk the flavour up, I order virginia red and blend the 2 together...

 

[liam1310]

Hi liam1310,
I order from that particular site and the organic canadian is very mild.
To bulk the flavour up, I order virginia red and blend the 2 together...

Thanks for the tip Can Won

 

[Esote]

Hi Wu Wei Wu, what about this Portuguese fellow talking about growing organic tobacco?
That could be a good alternative here in France, because now we don't even know anymore what we are buying with the neutral packaging.
Hope it will work...