Pandas are so cute!

Yes, I empathize with Anart and others who have expressed similar views/emotions. I’ve thought of these same things, but I do not agree that one can “think too much” :P. Uhh, isn't thinking about things one of the reasons most of us are here at this site?

Long before landing at the SOTT site, I could not bring myself to visit any zoo. I find them very depressing.

Most of the animals I’ve had were “rescued”. They may be fellow “inmates”, but I try to make them as comfortable as I can and keep them stimulated and be a good companion to them. I don’t view them as “lesser” than me. I view it as they are growing and learning as I am. They’ve brought their own special joy; a priceless sort. And, they offer their own special lessons for us from a certain perspective.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I am aware of the “negative” side to what we do to our 2D fellows. However, I try to do what I can for those I can, not to make myself feel good about it all, but because we are in this all together.
 
I don't know if any of you have read Life of Pi by Yann Martel, but my opinion was similar to yours all my life until I read this book. I also hated animals in enclosures. This book softened my aversion to zoos a little. The book starts off where his father runs the Pondicherry Zoo in India, and he grows up in the zoo and learns everything about taking care of the animals. He explores some interesting animal / human psychology. The book is written 'memoir style', and until about half way, you are convinced that it's a true story, until he lands on an island with carnivorous plants and you realise okay, this cannot be true.

But, with regards to the 'cruelty' of zoos, I'll just quote from the book. It's just a different viewpoint... I don’t necessarily agree, I just found it interesting…

I have heard nearly as much nonsense about zoos as I have about God and religion. Well-meaning but misinformed people think animals in the wild are “happy” because they are “free”. These people usually have a large, handsome predator in mind, a lion or a cheetah (the life of a gnu or of an aardvark is rarely exalted). They imagine this wild animal roaming about the savannah on digestive walks after eating a prey that accepted it’s lot piously, or going for callisthenic runs to stay slim after overindulging. They imagine this animal overseeing it’s offspring proudly and tenderly, the whole family watching the setting of the sun from the limbs of trees with sighs of pleasure. The life of the wild animal is simple, noble and meaningful, they imagine. Then it is captured by wicked men and thrown into tiny jails. Its “happiness” is dashed. It yearns mightily for “freedom” and does all it can to escape. Being denied its “freedom” for too long, the animal becomes a shadow of itself, its spirit broken. So some people imagine.

This is not the way it is.

Animals in the wild lead lives of compulsion and necessity within an unforgiving social hierarchy in an environment where the supply of fear is high and the supply of food low and where territory must constantly be defended and parasites forever endured. What is the meaning of freedom in such a context? Animals in the wild are, in practice, free neither in space nor in time, nor in their personal relations. In theory – that is, as a simple physical possibility – an animal could pick up and go, flaunting all the social conventions and boundaries proper to its species. But such an event is less likely to happen than for a member of our own species, say a shopkeeper with all the usual ties – to family, to friends, to society – to drop everything and walk away from his life with only the spare change in his pockets and the clothes on his frame. If a man, boldest and most intelligent of creatures, won’t wander from place to place, a stranger to all, beholden to none, why would an animal, which is by temperament far more conservative? For that is what animals are, conservative, one might even say reactionary. The smallest changes can upset them. They want things to be just so, day after day, month after month. Surprises are highly disagreeable to them. You see this in their spatial relations. An animal inhabits its space, whether in a zoo or in the wild, in the same way chess pieces move about a chessboard – significantly. There is no more happenstance, no more “freedom”, involved in the whereabouts of a lizard or a bear or a deer in the location of a knight on a chessboard.

Both speak of pattern and purpose. In the wild, animals stick to the same paths for the same pressing reasons, season after season. In a zoo, if an animal is not in its normal place in its regular posture at the usual hour, it means something. It may be the reflection of nothing more than a minor change in the environment. A coiled hose left out by a keeper has made a menacing impression. A puddle has formed that bothers the animal. A ladder is making a shadow. But it could mean something more. At its worst, it could be that most dreaded thing to a zoo director: a symptom, a herald of trouble to come, a reason to inspect the dung, to cross-examine the keeper, to summon the vet. All this because a stork is not standing where it usually stands!

But let me pursue for a moment only one aspect of the question.

If you went to a home, kicked down the front door, chase the people who lived there out into the street and said, “Go! You are free! Free as a bird! Go! Go!” – do you think they would shout and dance for joy? They wouldn’t. Birds are not free. The people you’ve just evicted would sputter, “With what right do you throw us out? This is our home. We own it. We have lived here for years. We’re calling the police, you scoundrel.”

Don’t we say, “There’s no place like home”? That’s certainly what animals feel. Animals are territorial. That is the key to their minds. Only a familiar territory will allow them to fulfil the two relentless imperatives of the wild: the avoidance of enemies and the getting of food and water. A biologically sound zoo enclosure – whether cage, pit, moated island, corral, terrarium, aviary or aquarium – is just another territory, peculiar only in its size and in its proximity to human territory. That it is so much smaller than what it would be in nature stands to reason. Territories in the wild are large not as a matter of taste but of necessity. In a zoo, we do for animals what we have done for ourselves with houses: we bring together in a small space what in the wild is spread out. Whereas before for us the cave was here, the river over there, the hunting grounds in a mile that way, the lookout next to it, the berries somewhere else – all of them invested with lions, snakes, ants, leeches and poison ivy – now the river flows through taps at hand’s reach and we can wash next to where we sleep, we can eat where we have cooked, and we can surround the whole with a protective wall and keep it clean and warm. A house is a compressed territory where our basic needs can be fulfilled close by and safely.

A sound zoo enclosure is the equivalent for an animal (with the noteworthy absence of a fireplace or the like, present in every human habitation). Finding within it all the places it needs – a lookout, a place for resting, for eating and drinking, for bathing, for grooming, etc. – and finding that there is no need to go hunting, food appearing six days a week, an animal will take possession of its zoo space in the same way it will lay claim to a new space in the wild, exploring it and marking it out in the normal ways of its species, with sprays of urine perhaps. Once this moving-in ritual is done and the animal has settled, it will not feel like a nervous tenant, but rather like a landholder, and it will behave in the same way within its enclosure as it would in its territory in the wild, including defending it tooth and nail should it be invaded. Such an enclosure is subjectively neither better nor worse for an animal than its condition in the wild; so long as it fulfills the animal’s needs, a territory, natural or constructed, simply is, without judgement, a given, like the spots on a leopard. One might even argue that if an animal can choose with intelligence, it would opt for living in a zoo, since the major difference between a zoo and the wild is the absence of parasites and enemies and the abundance of food in the first, and their respective abundance and scarcity in the second. Think about it yourself. Would you rather be put up at the Ritz for free room service and unlimited access to a doctor or be homeless without a soul to care for you? But animals are incapable of such discernment. Within the limits of their nature, they make due with what they have.

A good zoo is a place with carefully worked-out coincidence: exactly where an animal says to us, “Stay out!” with its urine or other secretion, we say to it, “Stay in!” with our barriers. Under such conditions of diplomatic peace, all animals are content and we can relax and have a look at each other.

In the literature can be found legions of examples of animals that could escape but did not, or did and returned. There is the case of the chimpanzee whose cage door was left unlocked and had swung open. Increasingly anxious, the chimp began to shriek and to slam the door shut repeatedly – with a deafening clang each time – until the keeper, notified by a visitor, hurried over to remedy the situation. A herd of roe-deer in a European zoo stepped out of their corral when the gate was left open. Frightened by visitors, the deer bolted for the nearby forest, which had its own herd of wild roe-deer and could support more. Nonetheless, the zoo roe-deer quickly returned to their corral. In another zoo a worker was walking to his work site at an early hour, carrying planks of wood, when, to his horror, a bear emerged from the morning mist, heading straight for him at a confident pace. The man dropped the planks and ran for his life. The zoo staff immediately started searching for the escaped bear. They found it back in its enclosure, having climbed down into its pit the way it had climbed out, by way of a tree that had fallen over. It was thought that the noise of the planks of wood falling to the ground had frightened it.

But I don’t insist. I don’t mean to defend zoos. Close them all down if you want (and let us hope that what wildlife remains can survive in what is left of the natural world). I know zoos are no longer in people’s good graces. Religion faces the same problem. Certain illusions about freedom plague them both.

The Pondicherry Zoo doesn’t exist anymore. Its pits are filled in, the cages torn down. I explore it now in the only place left for it, my memory.
 
book said:
Well-meaning but misinformed people think animals in the wild are “happy” because they are “free”. These people usually have a large, handsome predator in mind, a lion or a cheetah (the life of a gnu or of an aardvark is rarely exalted). They imagine this wild animal roaming about the savannah on digestive walks after eating a prey that accepted it’s lot piously, or going for callisthenic runs to stay slim after overindulging. They imagine this animal overseeing it’s offspring proudly and tenderly, the whole family watching the setting of the sun from the limbs of trees with sighs of pleasure. The life of the wild animal is simple, noble and meaningful, they imagine. Then it is captured by wicked men and thrown into tiny jails. Its “happiness” is dashed. It yearns mightily for “freedom” and does all it can to escape. Being denied its “freedom” for too long, the animal becomes a shadow of itself, its spirit broken. So some people imagine.
They are happy though, the challenge of survival is what makes an animal strong, what makes it respect life, what makes it learn its lessons and derive a meaning from life and existence, as far as a 2nd density can. Although each one of us is in a home with basic necessities kind of provided, humans have other challenges that animals do not have, and our lessons do not necessarily need us to hunt for food in order for our lives to be meaningful and fulfilling and useful for our development. Humans have all kinds of challenges in their lives but this is what makes or breaks us, this is what allows us to learn and grow. All is not provided for us on a silver platter and while on the surface we all wish life was just "easier" and everything we wished was given to us with no effort or work on our part, this would actually not make us happy if it came true, nor would it make us satisfied with our existence, we could not feel good about overcoming obstacles or learning from blocks in our path, it really would just stunt us and make our life pointless, dull, and a slap in the face to our very soul.

book said:
If a man, boldest and most intelligent of creatures, won’t wander from place to place, a stranger to all, beholden to none, why would an animal, which is by temperament far more conservative? For that is what animals are, conservative, one might even say reactionary. The smallest changes can upset them. They want things to be just so, day after day, month after month. Surprises are highly disagreeable to them.
Isn't this a contradiction to his own argument then - if animals like their environment to be as it is and are upset by surprises, why take them out of this environment and put into zoos?

book said:
You see this in their spatial relations. An animal inhabits its space, whether in a zoo or in the wild, in the same way chess pieces move about a chessboard – significantly. There is no more happenstance, no more “freedom”, involved in the whereabouts of a lizard or a bear or a deer in the location of a knight on a chessboard.
The animals adapt to their environment, but the wild offers them natural challenges, a zoo offers them nothing but pointless feeding. If there is a meaning to an animal's life, the zoo definitely removes it. It makes life easy sure, but at what cost?

book said:
If you went to a home, kicked down the front door, chase the people who lived there out into the street and said, “Go! You are free! Free as a bird! Go! Go!” – do you think they would shout and dance for joy? They wouldn’t. Birds are not free. The people you’ve just evicted would sputter, “With what right do you throw us out? This is our home. We own it. We have lived here for years. We’re calling the police, you scoundrel.”
So then he agrees that we shouldn't bust into an animal's natural environment and drag them away into a zoo?

book said:
Don’t we say, “There’s no place like home”? That’s certainly what animals feel. Animals are territorial. That is the key to their minds. Only a familiar territory will allow them to fulfil the two relentless imperatives of the wild: the avoidance of enemies and the getting of food and water. A biologically sound zoo enclosure – whether cage, pit, moated island, corral, terrarium, aviary or aquarium – is just another territory, peculiar only in its size and in its proximity to human territory.
Meh, why does everyone always think that life is arbitrary and has no reason or purpose other than survival? What point would that have? A bunch of molecules just randomly evolved into cells, who then decided that they need to keep trying to "evolve" so they can survive - why did the cells even care about their existence or survival? Why does anyone or anything, why does nature? Sounds like a means to fulfill something much more important. And similarly, you can kidnap a human and make them develop affinity for their captors aka "stockholm syndrome" and even be used to be in a cage to the point that they are afraid to get out when the door is open, but that doesn't mean that everything is ok then, they are happy so they are just fine right?

He clearly doesn't know about transmarginal inhibition. You can actually, through shocks (like suddenly and permanently being removed from your home/environment and forced to adopt drastically different lifestyle) make someone hate what is good for them, and love what is detrimental to them and others. Being content doesn't mean being healthy or truly happy in a deeper sense, it just means the brain activated its defenses from being constantly in a state of shock, fear, and misery, and forces you to be happy regardless of your circumstances to preserve your life.

What about our learned helplessness?

In the early 1960s scientists conducted animal experiments to determine something about the "flight instinct" in humans. In one experiment they wired half the bottom of a large cage, so that a dog placed in the cage would receive a shock each time it set foot on the right side. The dog quickly learned to stay on the left side of the cage.

Next, the left side of the cage was wired for the same purpose and the right side was safe from shocks. The dog reoriented quickly and learned to stay on the right side of the cage. Then, the entire floor of the cage was wired to give random shocks, so that no matter where the dog lay or stood it would eventually receive a shock. The dog acted confused at first, and then it panicked. Finally the dog "gave up" and lay down, taking the shocks as they came, no longer trying to escape them or outsmart them.

But the experiment was not over. Next, the cage door was opened. The scientists expected the dog to rush out, but it did not flee. Even though it could vacate the cage at will, the dog lay there being randomly shocked. From this, scientists speculated that when a creature is exposed to violence, it will tend to adapt to that disturbance, so that when the violence ceases or the creature is allowed its freedom, the healthy instinct to flee is hugely diminished, and the creature stays put instead.

That is most likely why the animals returned to their cages. They left not because they wanted freedom, but merely out of curiosity, and then promptly came back because they were actually scared of real freedom, their natural instincts have been greatly diminished, and they didn't know how they can survive on their own anymore. Similarly if a human is treated as a child all his life and given food and everything from day one, he will not know how to provide for himself, how to be resourceful and DO anything. He will depend on his "captors" and will be afraid to be on his own. Is this a healthy human? Not at all, it is a dependent slave that was not allowed to grow up and be able to act in favor of their own destiny in any way, be able to obtain something with their own knowledge and abilities.
 
anart said:
960714 said:
A: We would never suggest something as harsh as this.
However, beware: 3rd density STS orientation includes the
thought of "dominion" over 2nd density, and this is merely a
continuation of the energy buildups of the approach of the
wave... Some of the lessons are interesting indeed. When you
assume that capture and imprisonment of those of lesser
capacity than you is for "the good," why should not you
expect those of greater capacity than you to assume the same
regarding you?!?

It is one of the many things that I cannot ignore, much to my own distress at times - however, all there is is lessons and, perhaps, at some point in the 'future' things will shift. ;)

Excellent post Scio, I agree taking animals out of there natural habitat is damaging to them and possibly us.

What you said Scio and the quote that anart posted, got me thinking about our domesticated friends - dogs and cats, well dogs mainly, actually it reminded me of reading a post by Corto I think, discussing the origin of dogs and the highly unusual variations in their appearance. The question I was asking myself is 'Does having a dog as a companion/pet equate to capture and imprisonment?' I would have to say no. I've never really bought the whole dogs were descendants of tamed wolves, which interbred and evolved into a domesticated species hypothesis because then we would need to consider the humans that the wolves would have been interacting with. How similar was their behaviour to that of modern humans.

I've discovered on my searches another hypothesis which made me think the domesticated wolves theory has some merit: Think of human and wolf hunting techniques - they are very different. Wolves are pursuit predators and humans are (usually) ambush predators. Every hunting attempt can lead to three outcomes - success, failure (no sign of prey) and near-miss. A near-miss in wolves is normally due to their prey being able to maintain pace and stamina and thus escape (which is why the young, old and wounded are the most common prey). With humans failure is determined by being detected before the ambush can be sprung (human hunting is more dependent on inattentiveness of prey animals and the quality of their hunting implements). Consider that near misses are probably the most common outcome for any hunting attempt. A near-miss by humans will often lead to an injured animal = beneficial for wolves. Exhausted or fleeing animals are often inattentive about where they are heading = beneficial for humans. Simply by following humans around, wolves can identify where there are prey (if humans are following herds) and they can benefit from unsuccessful human hunting attempts. Humans would probably do the same with wolves - use them as an indicator of prey herds and benefit from their failed hunts. As this mutually beneficial arrangement develops there would be an increased selection pressure for wolves that tolerate humans and a cultural pressure for humans to tolerate wolves.

Unfortunately the above does not explain the variations but I like the hypothesis because it describes to some extent co-operation. (Co-operation in killing, hmmm I know I may have to re-think this)

I guess I'm quite taken with the idea that there is something unusual and very special about the man/woman dog relationship.
 
Hi SAO

Let me just first say that reading about his experiences in the Pondicherry Zoo ‘softened’ my aversion to zoos. I don’t like animals in confinement. I would love nothing more than for all wild animals to be out in the wild in an environment suited to their kind with everything they need in abundance. But we share this earth with them, so human interaction / intervention in their lives and territories is a given. It’s maybe just a consolation and comforting to consider that animals in enclosures are not completely and utterly miserable necessarily.

SAO said:
the challenge of survival is what makes an animal strong, what makes it respect life, what makes it learn its lessons and derive a meaning from life and existence, as far as a 2nd density can.

Are you then saying that an animal in a zoo or any other human enclosure with regular human interaction can’t “respect life”, “learn lessons” or “derive meaning from life and existence, as far as 2nd density goes”? I don’t agree with you. Human interaction (positive or negative) might very well be part of their lesson profiles.

[quote author=SAO]
book said:
If a man, boldest and most intelligent of creatures, won’t wander from place to place, a stranger to all, beholden to none, why would an animal, which is by temperament far more conservative? For that is what animals are, conservative, one might even say reactionary. The smallest changes can upset them. They want things to be just so, day after day, month after month. Surprises are highly disagreeable to them.
Isn't this a contradiction to his own argument then - if animals like their environment to be as it is and are upset by surprises, why take them out of this environment and put into zoos?
[/quote]

It was evident from the book, that the author loves animals dearly. He is kind of contradicting himself here, although for me he is more delving into animal psychology vis-à-vis their zoo enclosure (meaning it’s not the end of the world). Don’t forget that animals born in captivity never long for something they can’t even conceive of (the wild). That is why animal rehabilitation is such a tricky business, because animals can rarely adapt in the wild after confinement and ‘domestication’ by humans.

SAO said:
In the early 1960s scientists conducted animal experiments to determine something about the "flight instinct" in humans. In one experiment they wired half the bottom of a large cage, so that a dog placed in the cage would receive a shock each time it set foot on the right side. The dog quickly learned to stay on the left side of the cage.

Next, the left side of the cage was wired for the same purpose and the right side was safe from shocks. The dog reoriented quickly and learned to stay on the right side of the cage. Then, the entire floor of the cage was wired to give random shocks, so that no matter where the dog lay or stood it would eventually receive a shock. The dog acted confused at first, and then it panicked. Finally the dog "gave up" and lay down, taking the shocks as they came, no longer trying to escape them or outsmart them.

But the experiment was not over. Next, the cage door was opened. The scientists expected the dog to rush out, but it did not flee. Even though it could vacate the cage at will, the dog lay there being randomly shocked. From this, scientists speculated that when a creature is exposed to violence, it will tend to adapt to that disturbance, so that when the violence ceases or the creature is allowed its freedom, the healthy instinct to flee is hugely diminished, and the creature stays put instead.

That is most likely why the animals returned to their cages. They left not because they wanted freedom, but merely out of curiosity, and then promptly came back because they were actually scared of real freedom, their natural instincts have been greatly diminished, and they didn't know how they can survive on their own anymore. Similarly if a human is treated as a child all his life and given food and everything from day one, he will not know how to provide for himself, how to be resourceful and DO anything. He will depend on his "captors" and will be afraid to be on his own. Is this a healthy human? Not at all, it is a dependent slave that was not allowed to grow up and be able to act in favor of their own destiny in any way, be able to obtain something with their own knowledge and abilities.

Good point. I just think it’s not necessarily advisable to apply the psychology we apply to humans, to animals entirely. The C’s mentioned something to the effect the we can’t conceive of the way they perceive the world. It’s pointless at this stage to imagine a world where humans leave animals in peace. Our interaction with them might very well be part of both our lesson profiles.

In fact, due to some humans, we are at a stage now where intervention from other humans is absolutely necessary to ensure their survival. In the majority of Africa an elephant outside a protected reserve is a dead elephant. The lions in Kenya and Tanzania are another example; part of the Masai initiation into manhood is to kill a lion. The result: there’s hardly any lions left…

The world is very off right now, which necessitates human intervention. These humans intervening are big animal lovers. To an uninformed person for example, and elephant culling might seem like the most atrocious thing. Elephants are extremely destructive on an environment, and threaten the ecological balance and existence of so many other species if their spread is not contained. The costs of transporting an animal the size of an elephant are staggering. A big bull weighs six tons, an average cow around four. Even if there were funds, where do you take them? The safe areas have a surplus, the dangerous areas (like Zimbabwe) are not an option. So the only decision left, is not if it should be done or not, but how to do it as humanely as possible.

Today they take out the entire herd. It is absolutely essential that no survivors are left. The elephant herd is a complex family group. Nearly all its members are blood relatives, and there is a highly developed social structure within the herd. The elephant is an intelligent animal, probably the most intelligent after the primates, certainly more intelligent than a cat or dog, or even a dolphin. They know, and they really understand. The terrible truth is, that if they allow any of them to escape the cull, they would communicate their terror and panic to the other herds in the park. There would be a swift breakdown in the elephants’ behaviour.

It has happened before. In the past they knew very little about the techniques or effects of massive culling operations. They soon learned. Those first clumsy efforts almost destroyed the entire social structure of the herds. By shooting the older animals, they wiped out their reservoir of experience and transferable wisdom. They disrupted their migratory patterns, the hierarchy and discipline within the herds, even their breeding habits. The bulls began to cover the barely mature young cows before they were ready. An elephant cow is ripe for breeding at fifteen or sixteen years of age at the very earliest. Under the terrible stress of the culling the bulls went to the cows when they were only ten or eleven years of age, still in puberty, and the calves born of these unions were stunted little runts.

Today they take out the matriarch first, because when she goes down, the entire herd is in disarray. She’s the leader.
 
E said:
SAO said:
the challenge of survival is what makes an animal strong, what makes it respect life, what makes it learn its lessons and derive a meaning from life and existence, as far as a 2nd density can.

Are you then saying that an animal in a zoo or any other human enclosure with regular human interaction can’t “respect life”, “learn lessons” or “derive meaning from life and existence, as far as 2nd density goes”? I don’t agree with you. Human interaction (positive or negative) might very well be part of their lesson profiles.

I don't agree on that either. I had a hard time coping with the fact that a cat who used to stay with us is now with someone else. But then I realized that it's not a matter of possession, I realized that he is just in a new environment now with new and other lessons to learn perhaps. This realization took my sadness away..
Challenges are present everywhere and what they can lead to, I guess, depends on the individual. All is lessons.
 
Le Rhino said:
I guess I'm quite taken with the idea that there is something unusual and very special about the man/woman dog relationship.

I think it may have something to do with the idea that the relationship (if it is healthy) is actually mutually beneficial and this is due to the thousands of years of close inter-species interaction (could apply to house cats too). I could be wrong, though.

E said:
Hi SAO

Let me just first say that reading about his experiences in the Pondicherry Zoo ‘softened’ my aversion to zoos.

It sounds like an exception to the rule. While I'm very glad there is an exception to the rule, it really doesn't negate the facts about the rule.


E said:
I don’t like animals in confinement. I would love nothing more than for all wild animals to be out in the wild in an environment suited to their kind with everything they need in abundance. But we share this earth with them, so human interaction / intervention in their lives and territories is a given. It’s maybe just a consolation and comforting to consider that animals in enclosures are not completely and utterly miserable necessarily.

It's funny but as I read that I can envision a conversation between a few Lizzies, with each of them saying the same thing about humans. Just because that is the 'way it is' doesn't mean that is the way it should - or could - be. If humans were actually capable of sharing the Earth with other life forms, we might not even have the word 'zoo'.

E said:
Are you then saying that an animal in a zoo or any other human enclosure with regular human interaction can’t “respect life”, “learn lessons” or “derive meaning from life and existence, as far as 2nd density goes”? I don’t agree with you. Human interaction (positive or negative) might very well be part of their lesson profiles.

Learning through suffering - just like we do in the Lizzie's zoo.

[quote author=E]Don’t forget that animals born in captivity never long for something they can’t even conceive of (the wild).[/quote]

I have to strongly disagree with you here. I think there can be no doubt that 'wild' animals born and raised in captivity long for a more natural way of life. I see it in my parrots every day. I think, because they are group souls, that they sense very well where they 'should be' and what they 'should be doing'. It may not be a conscious thing, but it is there and it's strong and manifests in a myriad of ways; behavior, mental health, physical health, etc. That's just my own personal understanding, though, which might be off.

E said:
That is why animal rehabilitation is such a tricky business, because animals can rarely adapt in the wild after confinement and ‘domestication’ by humans.

This is true, but it's not because of what you wrote in your previous sentence. It is because animals born and kept in captivity are stunted in emotional and instinctual development - we retard them. They are unable to survive in the wild because humans have changed them, twisted and distorted them from their natural existence. Now, some animals born into captivity can still go on to survive in the wild to some extent, depending on the ecosystem, but it's rare.

It again could be directly compared to humans - those of us who are highly domesticated (high-tech city dwellers) would die fairly quickly left in the wild with no tools/provisions/knowledge to survive. But, even city dwellers long for open meadows, clean streams, fresh air and being able to do what interests them or what they want to do every day rather then being on the treadmill of their domesticated lives. It's not a perfect metaphor, but it's close.
 
anart said:
E said:
I don’t like animals in confinement. I would love nothing more than for all wild animals to be out in the wild in an environment suited to their kind with everything they need in abundance. But we share this earth with them, so human interaction / intervention in their lives and territories is a given. It’s maybe just a consolation and comforting to consider that animals in enclosures are not completely and utterly miserable necessarily.

It's funny but as I read that I can envision a conversation between a few Lizzies, with each of them saying the same thing about humans. Just because that is the 'way it is' doesn't mean that is the way it should - or could - be. If humans were actually capable of sharing the Earth with other life forms, we might not even have the word 'zoo'.

That's a scary thought. I remember ''joking'' with my brother how the aliens might have a zoo on ''their'' planet with humans in it for reptilians to see them for example. But this society here, I guess we are already in a zoo. We think we are taken care of by the system, we think this is where we belong, but maybe somewhere in our hearts we miss something.. maybe deep inside most humans know that this is not really the place for them to be, just like you said about your parrots. It makes me sad to think about how humanity has encaptured Nature and decided themselves what to do with Nature, who must survive and how.

G. said that those people who want to help are too lazy to work on themselves. Maybe the misunderstanding (due to lack of knowledge perhaps?) of the ''cruelty'' of Nature leads to people trying to act like saviors. What if people start to understand Nature better by knowing themselves better? Would their way of seeing things be different?

In this society, we can do little to change our relationship with animals (I think), all we can do is to just try to take care of them the best way we can. And hopefully whoever who will start a new society, I hope that it will be a lot different than this one here and that animals (and other 2d beings of course), humans and ''inanimate'' matter can co-exist naturally.

Sorry if this is word salad, all the posts in this thread have given me food for thought. Thank you for that...
 
The whole Zoos and animal captivity thing is a difficult one. If we consider free will on the animals part and the idea that animals may evolve more quickly through interaction with humans. However, looking at it from a more basic pov, I'd say that many animals in a zoo are very likely "bored". Put me up in the Ritz with all my needs catered to and soon I will be bored. There is a lot of satisfaction derived by humans from achievement, a "hard days work" etc. For most this satisfaction is derived from the fulfillment of a biological or genetic directive. It may well be the same for animals. In short, animals may find "happiness" in running wild on the plain and hunting or foraging in groups or alone (depending on the animal in question). And they can't get that in a Zoo.

On a side note, for some reason I had the impression of a bunch of 4D overlords penning a very similar rationale as the above for their treatment of humans or their creation of this planet as a zoo for us. But as I said, how many of us would be even trying to evolve if the human zoo conditions were not as bad as they are?
 
[quote author=anart]
[quote author=E]Don’t forget that animals born in captivity never long for something they can’t even conceive of (the wild).[/quote]

I have to strongly disagree with you here. I think there can be no doubt that 'wild' animals born and raised in captivity long for a more natural way of life. I see it in my parrots every day. I think, because they are group souls, that they sense very well where they 'should be' and what they 'should be doing'. It may not be a conscious thing, but it is there and it's strong and manifests in a myriad of ways; behavior, mental health, physical health, etc. That's just my own personal understanding, though, which might be off.
[/quote]

Mmmm, I completely forgot about instinct – that ‘unconscious’ knowing. You see it with different dog breeds bred for certain purposes. When I got my Labradour (retriever family) everyone said “oh! They love water!” and I really wanted him to “love water”. I said to them what if he doesn’t take to swimming? They said you’re gonna wish he never discovered the pool! And it was like that. I couldn’t get him out of the pool. Even on Winter mornings at around 5 o’ clock, I heard him splashing. Same with my brother’s Pointers (gundogs). They’ve never gone hunting and have no formal training, and yet…they point. Same with my Staffie (whose jaw locks – bred for fighting). When his jaw locked around my Jack Russell’s neck the one day, and I tried to pull it open, he took the nail off my thumb. They just go into such a frenzy, with white foam around their mouths and there’s nothing you can do…

Instinct is just so strong, and living in the wild and killing for food + roaming the savannas must be one of the strongest instinctive urges.

[quote author=Oxajil]
all the posts in this thread have given me food for thought.
[/quote]

Hmmm, me too! I wonder if some of the Lizzies are as scared of some of us, like we are scared of spiders. I know of a few humans who might scare Lizzies! :whistle:

Oxajil said:
G. said that those people who want to help are too lazy to work on themselves.

I think he meant this more in terms of human to human. I think! That’s why I said the world is off. We can’t stand idly by when all these animals are slaughtered like this. That’s just heartless, and an even bigger crime. I always think of that girl a while ago who caused such a scene during the annual Japanese dolphin culling. It was just awful to watch, they completely ignored her while she was cryyying and trying to intervene...

Oxajil said:
Maybe the misunderstanding (due to lack of knowledge perhaps?) of the ''cruelty'' of Nature leads to people trying to act like saviors. What if people start to understand Nature better by knowing themselves better? Would their way of seeing things be different?

The cruelty we’re trying to prevent is that of humans towards animals. It’s not the cruelty of nature (animal against animal) that requires human intervention. That is nature.
 
E said:
Are you then saying that an animal in a zoo or any other human enclosure with regular human interaction can’t “respect life”, “learn lessons” or “derive meaning from life and existence, as far as 2nd density goes”? I don’t agree with you. Human interaction (positive or negative) might very well be part of their lesson profiles.
Well if "all there is is lessons" then I guess they do, as does anyone who is a slave or a captive, but it just seems that they are prevented from achieving a lot that can only be achieved under the circumstances of their natural environment. If nothing is not a lesson it doesn't mean that doing anything to anyone is ok because no matter what is done to someone, it is a lesson, so it must be ok. I didn't mean that they will not be learning lessons at all, but by interfering we take something away, and it's not ours to take. And from what we do know, we do stagnate them in a lot of ways by placing them into zoos because we deprive of the environment where they most fit, as they evolved into that environment over a long time. And it is not our place to decide what kind of lessons and experiences they "need".

E said:
It was evident from the book, that the author loves animals dearly.
Well perhaps so, but it seems that he does not consider animals to be more than just feeding/pooing/sleeping machines. If that was true, then yes I'd agree that making it easy to feed/poop/sleep for this machine would be helpful to it. But if you consider that an animal is an intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually complex being that has far greater needs and purpose than just that, then I think putting it into a small room with food and a toilet and water fountain isn't going to be truly a service to it. I may be wrong, but it just seems that loving something would mean not making assumptions about it's needs and/or lack of needs, and then acting from your own assumptions, which amounts to "deciding the needs of others". Also it would mean assisting if and when you truly understand their existence well enough to know what would be of benefit and what would be harmful. As such, I don't think love can be separated from knowledge and respect. And if you don't really know, then is it really a loving thing to interfere blindly and just assume that it's for their own good?

Oxajil said:
I don't agree on that either. I had a hard time coping with the fact that a cat who used to stay with us is now with someone else. But then I realized that it's not a matter of possession, I realized that he is just in a new environment now with new and other lessons to learn perhaps. This realization took my sadness away..
Challenges are present everywhere and what they can lead to, I guess, depends on the individual. All is lessons.
I agree that all is lessons, but the danger here is that this could be used to rationalize anything since there is nothing that is not lessons. In this case it seems a cat is a domesticated animal so throwing him out by "freeing him" would only harm him. But I do wonder if the very existence of the concept like "domesticated animals " isn't just one long infringement upon the free will of an entire species. I wonder if it would be more humane to allow domesticated animals to naturally "die out" by not letting them reproduce, and ending a dependancy of an entire species on humans for their sustenance and very existence. Although I never really gave that much thought so maybe that wouldn't be good, I'm not sure at the moment.
 
"But I do wonder if the very existence of the concept like "domesticated animals " isn't just one long infringement upon the free will of an entire species. I wonder if it would be more humane to allow domesticated animals to naturally "die out" by not letting them reproduce, and ending a dependancy of an entire species on humans for their sustenance and very existence. Although I never really gave that much thought so maybe that wouldn't be good, I'm not sure at the moment."

The whole quotes around the word "domesticated" I don't see it as one long infringement upon the free will of an entire species. The way I see it (idealistic as this sounds) is dogs develop dependency on humans, which graduates to trust, which strengthens bonds of love and friendships. Humans find that their doggy friends fulfill their most basic of human emotional needs, unconditional love and loyalty.

Freud remarked on the fact that "dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate in their object relations." In other words, dogs are without the ambivalence with which humans seem cursed. We love, we hate, often the same person, on the same day, maybe even at the same time. This is unthinkable in dogs, whether because, as some people believe, they lack the complexity or, as I believe, they are less confused about what they feel. It is as if once a dog loves you, he loves you always, no matter what you do, no matter what happens, no matter how much time goes by. Dogs have a prodigious memory for people they have known. Perhaps this is because they associate people with the love they felt for them, and they derive pleasure from remembering this love.

Now to Quote

"Even among domesticated animals, the dog stands out as perhaps the only fully domesticated species. Goats are domesticated, and can be tame, but they rarely make intimate companions. Pigs probably could, if given half a chance. H. Hediger, the director of the Zoological Gardens of Zurich, writes that the dog, basically a domesticated wolf, was the first creature with which humans formed intimate bonds that were intense on both sides. According to Hediger, no other animal stands in such intimate psychological union with us; only the dog seems capable of reading our thoughts and "reacting to our faintest changes of expression or mood."

Some people compare dogs with slaves. But does the fact that we have created an almost complete dependency in dogs make them similar to slaves? We should remember that dogs have no choice in the matter. The Stockholm syndrome, where the kidnapped fall in love with their jailers (sometimes well beyond the limits of their confinement), may well apply here. To a certain extent, we are the jailers of dogs, since any freedom they achieve must be acquired by wheedling it out of us. This is one good reason they learn to read us so well. Survival dictates that dogs learn about us and learn to play us to some extent. Dogs must learn to negotiate whatever freedom they achieve within the confines we assign them. They seem to accept this control we exercise over them as the way things are. Dogs who rebel we call problem dogs. Perhaps they are merely independent thinkers, wondering why they should accept the status quo.

In conclusion (bizarrely this is from the N.Y. Times)

"The affinity may have to do with living as social beings in well-defined groups. In this way dogs, whales, and humans share much in common--although whales never show a desire to spend time with us over spending time with other whales. We could never become part of a killer-whale pod (which is one reason so little is known about killer whales). In fact, no other species has ever indicated that it regularly prefers the company of a human to that of members of its own species, with the single exception of the dog. While we have domesticated many animals, only the dog has domesticated us. The dog chooses us, not because it is confused about our identity, not because dogs think we are the marvel of creation, but merely because dogs love us. It is such an amazing fact, and so counterintuitive (so profoundly unlovable do we think we are) that almost nobody can accept it as fact. Dogs love us not only because we feed them, or walk them, or groom them, or protect them, but because we are fun. How astonishing!"
 
SAO said:
E said:
Are you then saying that an animal in a zoo or any other human enclosure with regular human interaction can’t “respect life”, “learn lessons” or “derive meaning from life and existence, as far as 2nd density goes”? I don’t agree with you. Human interaction (positive or negative) might very well be part of their lesson profiles.
Well if "all there is is lessons" then I guess they do, as does anyone who is a slave or a captive, but it just seems that they are prevented from achieving a lot that can only be achieved under the circumstances of their natural environment. If nothing is not a lesson it doesn't mean that doing anything to anyone is ok because no matter what is done to someone, it is a lesson, so it must be ok. I didn't mean that they will not be learning lessons at all, but by interfering we take something away, and it's not ours to take. And from what we do know, we do stagnate them in a lot of ways by placing them into zoos because we deprive of the environment where they most fit, as they evolved into that environment over a long time. And it is not our place to decide what kind of lessons and experiences they "need".

While I was reading the book quote, I thought of something Don Juan frequently referred to; the idea of having personal power And I thought it in terms of how, we as humans take the power of the animal when we captivate them.

Serpent Reality/Don Juan said:
Power rests on the kind of knowledge one holds. What is the sense knowing things that are useless?”

In that sense, animals gain power when they are in the wild. They learn by interacting with deadly things such as "lions, snakes, ants, leeches and poison ivy." Surviving what life/nature/the universe throws at them gives them power. And we selfishly take that power away from them. And in that sense we are taking their very soul osit.

Don Juan said:
“Every bit of knowledge that becomes power has death as its central force. Death lends the ultimate touch, and whatever is touched by death indeed becomes power.”


SAO said:
I agree that all is lessons, but the danger here is that this could be used to rationalize anything since there is nothing that is not lessons. In this case it seems a cat is a domesticated animal so throwing him out by "freeing him" would only harm him. But I do wonder if the very existence of the concept like "domesticated animals " isn't just one long infringement upon the free will of an entire species. I wonder if it would be more humane to allow domesticated animals to naturally "die out" by not letting them reproduce, and ending a dependency of an entire species on humans for their sustenance and very existence. Although I never really gave that much thought so maybe that wouldn't be good, I'm not sure at the moment.

It’s funny that you say this, _http://www.canada.com/technology/pandas+says+British+naturalist/2019444/story.html because I came across this article last night, it writes:

article said:
Let pandas die out, says British naturalist

LONDON - Conservationists should “pull the plug” on giant pandas and let them die out, according to BBC presenter and naturalist Chris Packham.

“Here’s a species that, of its own accord, has gone down an evolutionary cul-de-sac,” Packham told Radio Times magazine.

The 48-year-old believes that money spent on conserving the panda would be better invested in other animals as the species is not strong enough to survive alone.

“It’s not a strong species. Unfortunately it’s big and cute and it’s a symbol of the WWF (Worldwide Fund for Nature) — and we pour millions of pounds into panda conservation.”

“I reckon we should pull the plug. Let them go, with a degree of dignity ...”

Giant pandas are confined to forest areas high in the mountains of southwestern China and have to consume large quantities of bamboo to survive.

They number around 1,600 according to the WWF (_www.wwf.org.uk), and are threatened by agriculture, logging and China’s increasing human population.

But Packham’s views are not widely shared.

“It is a daft thing for Chris to say, and an irresponsible one,” Dr Mark Wright, a conservation science advisor for WWF, was reported as saying by British media.

“Pandas have adapted to where they live. They live in the mountains where there is plenty of the bamboo they want to eat.

“It’s like saying the blue whale is in an evolutional cul-de-sac because it lives in the ocean,” Wright added.

Packham, who is president of Britain’s Bat Conservation Trust and vice-president of the Wildlife Trusts, also saw a grim outlook for endangered tigers.

“I don’t think tigers are going to last another 15 years,” he said. “How can you conserve an animal that is worth more dead than alive? You can’t.”

Personally, I’m one to disagree with this guy’s views. For one, we humans are the major cause of MANY animals becoming extinct. The leastwe could do is to take care of them as long as we can imo. I find this Packham guy to be quite heartless in saying: “I reckon we should pull the plug. Let them go, with a degree of dignity ...”

I can’t help but think of this in terms of my own house-kitty Luna. She’s a house cat and not used to the outside world, if I were to abandon her, she would surely die, because she has not gained her own power as much as she could have in the wild, interacting with me osit. Interacting with me has given her new ways of seeing things I’m sure, but things that would be of no use to her when she goes into the wild. That’s my theory anyway. Having said that, I think if we free these pandas or any animal, it would be very hard for the animal to cope with a new life. Of course they will get used to it with time…but a dying species may not have that long.
 
but by interfering we take something away, and it's not ours to take. And from what we do know, we do stagnate them in a lot of ways by placing them into zoos because we deprive of the environment where they most fit, as they evolved into that environment over a long time.

Humans have already been doing this without end—and as long as the psychopaths and ponerized people greedily continue to expand into wildlife areas, wildlife habitat will continue to shrink.

No doubt most zoos are inadequate to meet the emotional and thought needs of its prisoners, but already there are animals that cannot continue to survive without them--pandas, cheetahs, soon tigers. So since we took their natural environment from them should we try to "save" them by putting in zoo and/or preserves?

Also, it is easy for us to romanticize "life in the wild." Although many wild animals appear to enjoy moments of peace and contentment, life there is often, "nasty, brutish and short" even without human encroachment. Observe the struggle for food and territory, the predation that goes on in your own back yard--the violent fights between hummingbirds, crows regularly abandoning the second chick to devote their resources to raising one, raccoons and vultures eating prey while it is still alive, the "screaming" cicada being munched by a mantis, the ants attacking a wounded toad you hit with your lawnmower. Most wildlife appears to spend their lives in a hyper-vigilant state looking for food, avoiding being food, and hoping to reproduce before they die.

In other words, life on 3D earth is full of unpleasant lessons whether you are in the wild or in a zoo, wealthy freeman or slave, animal or human. I think animals are here for us to learn lessons from as much or more than them from us. They are fellow travelers on the spiritual journey and until we can develop more empathy and respect we will continue to exert undue power over them in all situations. By genetically modifying (domesticating—which is not the same as taming) animals we have removed many of their abilities to survive on their own--we have sinned, if you will, by assuming these god-like powers over whole species and as long as they exist we owe them empathy, respect and care. A vegetarian diet is not entirely a remedy for guilt either—the production of grains and other foods regularly destroys thousands, if not millions of lives with the harvest of every field—bird and rabbit nests, toads, snakes, spiders, grasshoppers . . . .

I love the quote that Corto posted earlier in this thread—it sums it up for me.
“They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations,
caught with ourselves in the net of life and time,
fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth.”

shellycheval
 
Deedlet said:
Personally, I’m one to disagree with this guy’s views. For one, we humans are the major cause of MANY animals becoming extinct. The leastwe could do is to take care of them as long as we can imo.
I'm not sure that we're doing a species a favor though by keeping it on life support, if it can only survive in cages now. But maybe this could be a temporary solution if we were to restore what we took from them and then try re-introducing an endangered species back into their natural environment in a gentle way somehow?

shellycheval said:
No doubt most zoos are inadequate to meet the emotional and thought needs of its prisoners, but already there are animals that cannot continue to survive without them--pandas, cheetahs, soon tigers. So since we took their natural environment from them should we try to "save" them by putting in zoo and/or preserves?
To me it makes sense to only do this temporarily while we fix what we broke and then gently put them back. If we have no plans of restoring what we broke then I'm not sure it makes sense to keep a species artificially alive. Especially if we do it because the species is "cute" and some organization calls it a symbol. Although I'm kinda thinking with respect to the "Creating a New World" thread, as I know that such massive restoration and rehabilitation of species to be independant from us be it domesticated or simply endangered right now is not realistic with the way the world is. But that's definitely a question that we will face in the process of creating a new world - the concept of pets, and whether it makes any sense or not, and what to do with existing pets. For example, dogs definitely help people hunt - but does that justify having/using them as such?
 
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