Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity

[thorbiorn]

The author, Timothy Peat Ashworth, is working at Woodbrooke | Woodbrooke Quaker Conference Centre Birmingham

 

[Laura]

My review on amazon.com went live today. I guess they were slow reviewing over the holidays. Here it is:

This is the best book on Pauline Theology I've ever read and believe me, I've read stacks of them. Ashworth leaves Dunn, Sanders and the rest in the dust. The text is easy even for a non scholar, the arguments clear and precise, examples are repeated often enough so that the reader can follow without losing track, and the results are absolutely amazing.

Ashworth does not cover every aspect of Paul's ideas, just the most essential and, believe me, that is a LOT! He does appear to use a couple of passages of Paul's letters that may be interpolations, but this in no way detracts from the overall trajectory of the thesis and arguments.

This is the book for the modern Christian to re-locate themselves in the context of REAL faith! Inspiring, beautiful, rational (even!) and thoroughly satisfying.

It's too bad the book is so pricey, but perhaps two or three people could buy it together and then share; or a Bible study group could take up a collection to purchase it for reading and study. It really is that good. Every church library should have this book on their shelves.

I think that if today's mainstream Christians would read this book and take it's insights onboard, Christianity would go through a real reformation!

Also, here is the book blurb from amazon:

How can we know today what was happening in the minds and hearts of Paul and the first Christians so long ago? By getting below the surface of Paul's theology, the consistent key elements of early Christian experience are revealed in a way that throws light on the meaning of powerful religious experiences and movements both in the past and today. Illuminating for those who have never read a word on Paul yet disturbing and provocative for biblical scholars, this book tackles the topic of the religious experience of Paul and the first Christians. Lacking authentic knowledge of Paul's liberating experience, generations of translators and interpreters have inevitably and sometimes clumsily obscured Paul's meaning. In this book the scholarly accusation that Paul is incoherent is turned upside down to show how uncritically accepted ways of translating Paul mislead today's reader and introduce a mystifying complexity into scholarship on Paul. Taking the reader step-by-step through a painstaking restoration of the meaning of Paul's text, the colour and form of Paul's original vision are revealed.

One thing that I noticed as I was reading Ashworth is how Paul's view of human development over ages was somewhat akin to the "growing up of humanity" discussed by R. G. Collingwood in "The Idea of History" and "Speculum Mentis." If you read Ashworth's exegesis with Cs, Gurdjieff, Castaneda, Mouravieff, etc in mind, you will be able to make the connections! Yes, there is the Stoic element in there, but with Paul, there was a major innovation: his Christ as the highest ideal who not only could draw one up, but could also somehow enable/empower the Christian. I keep thinking back to the following exchange with the Cs back on 30 Sept 1994:

Q: (L) Is there any special power or advantage in praying in the name of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, if he didn't die and release his spirit into the earth plane, how is this power conferred?
A: Prayers go to him.
Q: (L) And what does he do when he hears the prayers?
A: Determines their necessity against background of individual soul development.
Q: (L) You said that when a person prays to Jesus that he makes some sort of a decision, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, how can he do that when millions of people are praying to him simultaneously?
A: Soul division.
Q: (L) What do you mean by soul division?
A: Self explanatory.
Q: (L) Do you mean soul division as in cellular mitosis where a cell splits and replicates itself?
A: No.
Q: (L) Does Jesus' soul divide?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How many times does it divide?
A: Endlessly as a projection of consciousness.
Q: (L) And what happens to this piece of soul that is divided or projected?
A: Is not a piece of a soul.
Q: (L) What is it?
A: It is a replication.
Q: (L) Is each replication exactly identical to the original?
A: Yes. And no.
Q: (L) In what way is the replicated soul different from the original?
A: Not able to give individual attention.
Q: (L) Are any of us able to replicate in this manner if we so desire?
A: Could if in same circumstance. The way the process works is thus: When Jesus left the earth plane, he went into another dimension or density of reality, whereupon all "rules" regarding the awareness of time and space are entirely different from the way they are perceived in your realm. At this point in space time his soul which was/is still in the physical realm, was placed in a state of something akin to suspended animation and a sort of advanced form of unconsciousness. From that point to the present his soul has been replicated from a state of this unconsciousness in order that all who call upon him or need to be with him or need to speak to him can do so on an individual basis. His soul can be replicated ad infinitum--as many times as needed. The replication process produces a state of hyper-consciousness in each and every version of the soul consciousness.

It seems to me that this is rather like what Paul was trying to describe. And if so, that goes way beyond Stoicism!

 

[thorbiorn]

Regarding the prize of Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation

On Amazon.com the Kindle is USD 54.14
Om Amazon.de the Kindle is Euro 29.30
The paperback from Amazon.co.uk is 40 £ and might be slightly cheaper than from Amazon.com where it is USD 53.30 but that would depend where one is living and what the rate of exchange is, but at the time of posting there does seem to be a difference.

 

[lainey]

Regarding the prize of Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation

On Amazon.com the Kindle is USD 54.14
Om Amazon.de the Kindle is Euro 29.30
The paperback from Amazon.co.uk is 40 £ and might be slightly cheaper than from Amazon.com where it is USD 53.30 but that would depend where one is living and what the rate of exchange is, but at the time of posting there does seem to be a difference.

I saw that, though watch out as it says the paperback copy is dispatched between 1 and 3 months on .co.uk! I think I'll get the kindle version so I can start right away.

 

[PERLOU]

J'ai cherché sur Amazon France mais je ne l'ai pas trouvé en Français ...

I searched on Amazon France but I couldn't find it in French ...

 

[sid]

Hello all

I managed to order a soft-cover copy at a good price from below. They ship worldwide. You can manually change the location and currency at the top to get localised price.

Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation

How can we know today what was happening in the minds and hearts of Paul and the first Christians so long ago? By getting below the surface of Paul's theology, the consistent key elements of early Christian experience are revealed in a way that throws light on the meaning of powerful religious exper

www.routledge.com

 

[scotseeker]

Thank you for the info Sid, just ordered the book in paperback and it appears from all of the comments on the thread this one needs to be moved up to the front of my reading list!

 

[genero81]

The interpretations of dikaiosunē and dikaioō that have been offered make it possible to understand Paul’s meaning when he uses these words in a simple, consistent and literal sense: the free gift of absolution from God is a real and effective liberation from sin (carnality, unconscious genetic body drives) that brings about a new state/manner of existing (STO Polarization) which subsists in the way of doing what is right by faith. (knowledge application/ utilization)

Timothy Ashworth. Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation (Kindle Locations 662-665). Routledge. Kindle Edition.

 

[Stoneboss]

From Laura's review on Amazon above:

Ashworth does not cover every aspect of Paul's ideas, just the most essential and, believe me, that is a LOT! He does appear to use a couple of passages of Paul's letters that may be interpolations, but this in no way detracts from the overall trajectory of the thesis and arguments.

As in reading any book for the sake of research, there's always some discernment that must be applied. What I'm finding helpful in reading Ashworth's book is to have first read the threads: "Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ" and "Stoicism and Paul: Making a Cosmology-Anthropology-Ethics for Today", where Laura places Paul in a context that we can begin to understand better what he was all about.

 

[goyacobol]

J'ai cherché sur Amazon France mais je ne l'ai pas trouvé en Français ...

I searched on Amazon France but I couldn't find it in French ...

@PERLOU ,

It would be tedious but you could get an Epub version and use DeepL to translate into French if you don't find it somewhere in French.

@PERLOU ,

Ce serait fastidieux mais vous pourriez obtenir une version Epub et utiliser DeepL pour traduire en français si vous ne le trouvez pas quelque part en français.

 

[genero81]

There's so much to comment on already! I've been busy with work and what not, I finally have a few minutes. We can see from what appears to be a much more accurate interpretation of Paul's teachings that what's been obfuscated is the most crucial element; a direct line of hearing "the prophetic word of God" individually in order to know what to do, (right action) It's like 4D STS has done anything and everything to make it so one thinks that 'authority' must come from outside oneself. Even some of the other scholars of Paul's writings miss it and ascribe that power only to Paul himself. Paul is teaching that this "prophetic word" is objective. (i.e. coming from a legitimate source outside of one's subjective consciousness.) I think this is why it's so easy to get confused and miss it. Is it in fact coming from Caesar who's able from his special state of existence, which allows him to replicate himself and instruct each disciple who's lesson profile allows it? Or is it coming from one's own future (STO) self if one is a Wanderer from a higher density? Who knows? I don't think it matters as long as one does two things: 1) verifies that what one is 'hearing' is legit through discussion with the spiritual 'community' (the network) -2) heads the instruction given ( becomes a 'slave' to 'the word of 'God.' )

Once that has been achieved, real transformation begins and is an ongoing process. I would say at that point one has only just begun. There is much work to do!

Just some thoughts

 

[thorbiorn]

That the Author of the book, Timothy Ashworth, is associated with the British Quaker movement, made me look up what has been said about this group in other contexts and found in relation to their influence in North America:

Albion's Seed and much more

I recently began reading a book entitled "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America" by David Hackett Fischer. My original intention was just to get a better background on immigrants to America as a possible help to my genealogy hobby, but I got a lot more than that. Albion's Seed: Four...

cassiopaea.org

3) People of the North Midlands of England were the Quakers who emigrated to the Delaware Valley. The Quaker discussion is truly fascinating because it seems that it was the basis for the Middle Atlantic and Midwestern United States' industrial culture, i. e. capitalism. Capitalism as the Quakers practiced it was very much dominated by ethical concerns and thus was not the "dog-eat-dog" version we experience today. The Quaker society was truly set up on principles of freedom that were underpinned by the golden rule: don't do to anybody else what you wouldn't want done to yourself. The discussion of how the Quakers came to their ideas and implemented them is fascinating and well worth reading. Though one may not agree with some of the personal restrictions Quakers put on themselves, there is a LOT of value in their whole approach to life. I really identified with them more than any other group and what they did was amazing and admirable.

In the book the author presents the problem he sets out to resolve by introducing the historical setting in which it has appeared. I was surprised Martin Luther would enter the picture in chapter one, but the reasons are well founded:

A key moment in the 16th century Reformation took place when Martin Luther was studying Paul’s letter to the Galatians. He was seeking to understand what Paul meant when he used the Greek word, dikaioō, usually translated into English as ‘to be justified’. Luther felt the same difficulty as many other interpreters down the years. Paul appears to be speaking of something momentous – a real change which in other contexts he can describe as a liberation. And yet this was not Martin Luther’s own experience. Luther was acutely aware of the intense and continuing struggle in his own life – he did not feel this sense of ‘liberation’. He continued to struggle with the reality of sin. To make sense of his own experience – and what he felt was the general experience of the Christian believer – he came to consider that Paul, when he used the word dikaioō, was indeed meaning a real change, but a change in the status of the individual in the eyes of God, not a felt change in the lived experience of the believer. - Timothy Ashworth. Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation (Kindle Locations 445-452). Routledge. Kindle Edition.

This interpretation by Luther appears to have influenced much of protestant theology and that presents a difficulty.

The difficult thing is that Paul seems to be speaking of a real change in the life of the believer in his time, which he describes as ‘receiving the Spirit’, a change so dramatic that there is no question for the person who has gone through it that they have experienced it; and yet this does not appear to be the widespread experience of Christians today or for most of Christian history. So as we turn to interpret the thought of Paul today his meaning remains obscure when it comes to what is arguably the central experience of the Christian life as he understands it. As we seek to make sense of Paul this question is a central one: if Paul is speaking of a real change in the life of the believer, what was the nature of that change? - Timothy Ashworth. Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation (Kindle Locations 454-459). Routledge. Kindle Edition.

 

[Laura]

There's so much to comment on already! I've been busy with work and what not, I finally have a few minutes. We can see from what appears to be a much more accurate interpretation of Paul's teachings that what's been obfuscated is the most crucial element; a direct line of hearing "the prophetic word of God" individually in order to know what to do, (right action) It's like 4D STS has done anything and everything to make it so one thinks that 'authority' must come from outside oneself. Even some of the other scholars of Paul's writings miss it and ascribe that power only to Paul himself. Paul is teaching that this "prophetic word" is objective. (i.e. coming from a legitimate source outside of one's subjective consciousness.) I think this is why it's so easy to get confused and miss it. Is it in fact coming from Caesar who's able from his special state of existence, which allows him to replicate himself and instruct each disciple who's lesson profile allows it? Or is it coming from one's own future (STO) self if one is a Wanderer from a higher density? Who knows? I don't think it matters as long as one does two things: 1) verifies that what one is 'hearing' is legit through discussion with the spiritual 'community' (the network) -2) heads the instruction given ( becomes a 'slave' to 'the word of 'God.' )

Once that has been achieved, real transformation begins and is an ongoing process. I would say at that point one has only just begun. There is much work to do!

Just some thoughts

Yes indeed, this book is so full of interesting things I think we have material for questions to Cs for some time to come. I'm going to try to get one in as often as possible. And, here's the first from the as-yet unpublished (in public) session:

Q: (L) In this recent book I read about Paul, it basically exhibits what Paul was seeing or perceiving in his visions, or his conversations, or his channelings with Jesus I guess you'd call it. It's pretty much what we have received via this communication. Now, this guy interprets righteousness as absolution. I would like to ask about this absolution/righteousness issue. What did Paul actually mean?

A: Something rather like what you and others have experienced as "cleansing" or "opening" of the conscience as Gurdjieff described it.

Q: (L) So in other words, this getting "saved" or "made righteous" or having absolution or whatever is not necessarily an instantaneous thing?

A: Exactly. But it can be in rare instances.

Q: (L) But for most people, it would be more like what Jeanne De Salzmann describes in the First Initiation. First, you have to get to the point where you can really see yourself, see your lies, see how you have identified with your false personality, and grow that spiritual part of yourself which is the "spirit self" as Paul describes it - as opposed to the fleshly self. Paul says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. What he means is not necessarily that you have to die, but that it is that inner self, that awareness, that conscience, that spirit self that has to be brought to awareness and then grown and solidified, more or less. That is being "saved", so to say.

A: Yes

Q: (L) And that's pretty much what Paul says because he doesn't describe it as an instant process. He says you need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So it's something that requires work and time. And yet Christianity as it exists today has distorted this to where they say, "Oh, all you have to do is come down to the altar and say you believe" and that's it. That's just not the way it works.

A: Consider that much editing and confusion has entered the texts for impure purposes.

Q: (L) Impure purposes... You mean like people seeking power and control?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So am I right that the Book of Mark was an amalgamation of elements of Paul's Christ overlaid on Judas the Galilean, and the Judas the Galilean figure was completely stripped of his revolutionary character and that sort of thing?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So there was a Jewish Christ, and there was Paul's Christ. They were combined to make Jesus of Nazareth, the hippy who went around in sandals doing miracles?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Any other questions?

(Joe) Who was Paul's Christ?

A: Caesar!

Q: (Joe) Did Paul know that?

A: Yes

 

[Turgon]

I'm normally pretty slow when it comes to reading red-hot recommendations along with everyone else, but Abebooks just sent me an email that they dropped the price on shipping for a used copy! I couldn't believe it! Looking forward to reading this one when it arrives.

 

[Stoneboss]

"(Joe) Who was Paul's Christ?

A: Caesar!

Q: (Joe) Did Paul know that?

A: Yes"

Last night, while lying in bed, (after several hours of reading the book, still have about a hundred pages to go), I was pondering about this very thing. Was Paul's Christ Caesar? For whatever reason, I decided to get up, go to my computer, light up a smoke, and re-read the July 19, 2014 session (the prior session was when the group communicated with Caesar), where the C's said this (in relation to Caesar):

"The many cries of grief and need for succor at the time of his death. It could be said that this immense need and sense of loss was the foundation of the beginnings of what became Christianity."