Pleasure seeking

[T.C.]

Hi everyone

Spent some time writing about pleasure-seeking last night. It's a damning indictment of pleasure, very black and white when I know the subject is probably much greyer - but just thought I'd share my thoughts, anyway.

The seeking of pleasure is the root of all evil. The more I seek pleasure and get it, the more I want it. A life spent in the pursuit of pleasure is meaningless. I've become pleasure-focused - again.

I didn't care about seeking pleasure last year. My attitude was closer to an acceptance of life having a kind of misery about it.

The more one seeks pleasure, the more one feels pain because when one is consistently and habitually flooding one's brain with pleasure chemicals, the cessation of such activity leads to a normal state being painful.

The pursuit of pleasure leads one to become more and more self-focused, less and less other-focused. It leads to increased irritability which makes taking care of life - going to work, doing chores, studying - an inconvenience; all the things we have to do become things that just get in the way of our pleasure-seeking.

The pursuit of pleasure then becomes a pollutant that pervades and colours everything we do in reference to itself. It becomes a yardstick we measure everything against to see how much pleasure we'll get from doing it.

Pleasure-seeking is the opposite of living. Instead, it's like choosing to live inside a glass box. You can still see everything around you, and you can still interact with your those who see you first, but in a greatly reduced capacity. It's a defensive and immature way to be. It's also habitual.

When you break free of the glass box of self-focused pleasure-seeking, you have the freedom to become anything you want, affect any changes you want, because Working towards something isn't always immediately gratifying and is often a struggle. If your main aim is to derive pleasure from what you do, then anything that will lead to a long-term result over a short-term 'hit' won't be very appealing.

Changing your attitude towards suffering is a prerequisite towards choosing conscious suffering, but you can't change your attitude towards suffering without also changing your attitude towards pleasure.

When you free yourself from a pleasure-focused life, pleasure then comes spontaneously in day to day interactions. When you stop chasing it, it stops running away from you. A life that is not pleasure-focused is not an unhappy one - it actually is the only road that brings the satisfaction that pleasure-seeking professes to give you but never actually gets you there.

Our pleasure circuits are deeply ingrained because when we were born they were essential for our survival. They gave us the ability to attach to our mothers. So, it doesn't matter how much progress you make in becoming the real you, there's always the potential for something to come along - drugs, food, sex etc. - that hits your pleasure circuits and switches your mode of being into a regressive, self-indulgent mode.

So if you're stuck in pleasure seeking, know that it is a habit that you can choose to break free from and get beyond yourself. If you're already there, know that you need to stay vigilant because the gift of the Universe is the freedom to do whatever we want - and WE includes our physiological reward systems, too.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= TC]Pleasure-seeking is the opposite of living. Instead, it's like choosing to live inside a glass box. You can still see everything around you, and you can still interact with your those who see you first, but in a greatly reduced capacity. It's a defensive and immature way to be. It's also habitual.[/quote]

I think that’s well said. Pleasure-seeking through social interaction requires a certain habitat that fits your mechanical being.

No true interaction can ever exists from it since it’s all about the reward you seek to gain from it. Which makes it all about you, not them.



[quote author= TC]When you free yourself from a pleasure-focused life, pleasure then comes spontaneously in day to day interactions.[/quote]

What happens I think when this stops being your dominant mode of behavior around people is that you actually start to listen and care for them + being sincerely interested.



[quote author= TC]A life that is not pleasure-focused is not an unhappy one[/quote]

Yes absolutely. On the contrary. In the end, we should realize that pleasure seeking = suffering. It’s soulless and causes disconnect with others. Its like saying I never truly cared about my children.
( Projecting this to everyone ) Not that I have children but I can imagine the depth of guilt such realization can bring.

Love is not a chemical cocktail, it’s a higher state of consciousness.


The opposite of reward/pleasure seeking is taking responsibility to take care of yourself and others best you can. To take care not for some reward but because its right.

OSIT

 

[luke wilson]

Does it not depend on what the pleasure seeking is?

For example, some people will seek pleasure through drugs or living hedonistically, whilst others will seek pleasure through arranging for a bbq with their family, or going camping, spending time with their kids doing activities, learning a new skill, exploring nature etc... Is it not dependant on context as to whether it's a bad thing or just a healthy human endeavour that nourishes life and well-being?

 

[bjorb]

I think what TC meant is pleasure seeking for the self.

Spending time with your own kids, camping or having a bbq with friends and family should be fun. Because it is fun to be part of their life so that you can take care and love them.

Maybe TC can explain the context by examples?

 

[kalibex]

I think what TC meant is pleasure seeking for the self.

The only issue I have with any blanket condemnation of pleasure seeking, is I have become aware of the concept put forth by some (e.g. Julia Ross's The Mood Cure) that there is a baseline natural endorphin production level, and that some people - for various reasons - are simply deficient - below normal baseline.

If that is true...then some amount of instinctive pleasure-seeking (similar to a craving for a nutrient) to return to the natural homeostasis might be inevitable. (Though at that point improvement of personal health, including any needed precursors, might avoid the need for various maladaptive pleasure-seeking behaviors.)

But I take it you are criticizing the hunt for such pleasure above whatever the 'normal' baseline level is, similar to the rat pushing the lever forever for the next endorphin hit.

 

[bjorb]

Hi Kalibax,

[quote author= Kalibax]The only issue I have with any blanket condemnation of pleasure seeking[/quote]

You mean how to differentiate? Our polarity is STS so it should be difficult to comprehend what it truly means to serve others.

I can’t exactly tell when we are just genuine trying to help or just seeking a reward. (pleasure seeking) I think both of those can get mixed up more than often.

But with super-efforts, I think we may get a good picture. Especially so in a sincere network.


[quote author= Kalibax]But I take it you are criticizing the hunt for such pleasure above whatever the 'normal' baseline level is, similar to the rat pushing the lever forever for the next endorphin hit.[/quote]

No I am talking about intent.

Example: (TC said)

[quote author= TC]You can still see everything around you, and you can still interact with your those who see you first, but in a greatly reduced capacity.[/quote]

Engaging in social interaction with the mask of the false personality results in seeking rewards (Ego) (Intent = pleasure seeking for the self)

But to BE in social interaction means to be sincerely interested in the other person. ( Intent = Pure )

I have no clear knowledge of what happens in the brain on that level. But I can tell the 2 feel different. Pleasure seeking feels demanding. The other is not really a ''feeling''. It’s more like something you do because its right.

 

[Buddy]

Spent some time writing about pleasure-seeking last night. It's a damning indictment of pleasure, very black and white when I know the subject is probably much greyer - but just thought I'd share my thoughts, anyway.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I'm moved to ask: how could you possibly have arrived at this? The pleasure movement, or pleasure-seeking movement is rooted in the body at the neurological level, but you are speaking within a psychological framework. Does this knowledge operate in your life?

To me, it is as you say, black and white, but the implications of that would seem to require alchemical intervention that also affects the "I". And until this is fully operating in each person's life, readers have to live in the grey area so how did you think this could be used by someone in the Work?

So if you're stuck in pleasure seeking, know that it is a habit that you can choose to break free from and get beyond yourself.

How? No, it is not a habit that can be broken by mere choice. Not by me, anyway, as I have discovered by myself. 'Wanting' is part of the pleasure-seeking movement and wanting to break such a habit is just a way for the movement to incorporate techniques into itself to keep itself continuing. Mind knows all the tricks there are, and wanting to break this habit will only make one even more neurotic as I have also discovered for myself.

Probably, the best thing for now is more of a Stoic-like perspective. The body only wants to survive and reproduce. As part of its survival, keeping the senses and sensing capacities at their peak or optimum is of paramount importance. The body can't, for long, take an "I" trying to keep pleasure going by repeating pleasurable experiences over and over...that messes up its sensitivity and adversely affects homeostasis, or normal functioning endocrine and hormonal balancing systems.

So, as kalibex suggests, hopefully you are talking about mal-adaptive (or above baseline) levels of pleasure-seeking, though you don't explicitly say that. Anything else is more likely to require the 'death' or total fleeing of the predator's mind.

 

[kalibex]

So, as kalibex suggests, hopefully you are talking about mal-adaptive (or above baseline) levels of pleasure-seeking, though you don't explicitly say that.

The thing is... we get caught up in 'maladaptive habits' - to use a slightly more neutral term than 'evil' - often as a result of trying to assuage various kinds of 'suffering'. As I see it...we are usually (if not always) 'in pain'. We are trying to get back to some sort of personal homeostasis. Whether that being due to running from buried self-shame due to having failed (at the moment) to move forward towards a more mature/idealized self, or insecure attachment from childhood, or other past traumas, etc.

It is apparently possible to learn to live with a bit more of that 'discomfort', to re-label 'suffering ' as 'discomfort', and in that process successfully cut back on the self-soothing behaviors, which may be what you are referring to. T.C...?

 

[Carl]

Does it not depend on what the pleasure seeking is?

For example, some people will seek pleasure through drugs or living hedonistically, whilst others will seek pleasure through arranging for a bbq with their family, or going camping, spending time with their kids doing activities, learning a new skill, exploring nature etc... Is it not dependant on context as to whether it's a bad thing or just a healthy human endeavour that nourishes life and well-being?

The difference is pleasure through the easy road and pleasure through the harder road. I know the kind of 'pleasure' that T.C. is talking about here and it has nothing to do with learning new skills or connecting with others.

There's nothing wrong with getting pleasure from having a BBQ or mastering a craft. However some of us, due to upbringing or toxicity or whatever, never learned much about getting pleasure from these things.

For instance, 2 problems I've had with my life are 1) Social anxiety (makes socializing/connecting with others terrifying and awkward instead of fun) and 2) Lack of belief/confidence that I can achieve anything (makes learning new skills feel like a chore and I quit in a self-defeating loop).

In such a situation I naturally turned to easy road pleasures, and I can very much relate to the text that T.C. wrote. It takes a lot of discipline to even just get to a normal baseline level and not be sucked in by addictions.

 

[Windmill knight]

Does it not depend on what the pleasure seeking is?

For example, some people will seek pleasure through drugs or living hedonistically, whilst others will seek pleasure through arranging for a bbq with their family, or going camping, spending time with their kids doing activities, learning a new skill, exploring nature etc... Is it not dependant on context as to whether it's a bad thing or just a healthy human endeavour that nourishes life and well-being?

The difference is pleasure through the easy road and pleasure through the harder road. I know the kind of 'pleasure' that T.C. is talking about here and it has nothing to do with learning new skills or connecting with others.

There's nothing wrong with getting pleasure from having a BBQ or mastering a craft. However some of us, due to upbringing or toxicity or whatever, never learned much about getting pleasure from these things.

For instance, 2 problems I've had with my life are 1) Social anxiety (makes socializing/connecting with others terrifying and awkward instead of fun) and 2) Lack of belief/confidence that I can achieve anything (makes learning new skills feel like a chore and I quit in a self-defeating loop).

In such a situation I naturally turned to easy road pleasures, and I can very much relate to the text that T.C. wrote. It takes a lot of discipline to even just get to a normal baseline level and not be sucked in by addictions.

Ok, I hear you Carl, but I have to say that my first reaction to TC's text was that it was too dark and indeed ignoring the 'simple pleasures' that come with being fairly at peace with yourself, your environment and those around you. I was thinking of playing with a dog, reading a good book, cooking something that turned out to be unexpectedly tasty, mastering a new skill you thought you couldn't, sharing a joke with a friend, etc. Just the joy of being around someone you love and admire is already quite awesome - and I don't even mean (only) romantic love, but love in general, which comes in many forms.

But I have also felt like you describe above many times, basically feeling so depressed or anxious that I need to escape with some strong & fast type of pleasure. In that case, the 'pleasure', like addictions in general, is probably just the symptom and the problem is the underlying feeling of emptiness. It is interesting that you point out specifically to social anxiety and lack of faith in yourself. Because if you have strong social ties you feel much more fulfilled, and not being a 'failure' is not so important anymore, and you can allow yourself some faith in self.

So, I think it all comes down to that video posted on several threads about addiction, in which rats put into a 'rat park' don't get addicted; with the implication that humans with strong social and family connections (the 'human park') also don't get addicted. And I bet they take a lot of pleasure in life.

 

[mkrnhr]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding with the broad use of "pleasure" to different situations. Usually pleasure is used for the aimless rush of chemicals in the brains. Ice cream = pleasure. It can be viewed as a shallow feel good for the sake of it. On the other hand, other "feel good" situations that are more context-related, are different and should be described differently like "joy", "relief", "fun", "wellbeing", etc.

Edit: a not too dissimilar notion is discussed in this thread: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31598.0.html
especially about the W. Irvine's "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy ".

 

[kalibex]

Ice cream = pleasure. It can be viewed as a shallow feel good for the sake of it.

Fair enough - though I suspect a lot of that type of 'shallow' behavior ... is to dull 'pain' (of various types), some of it incredibly petty (like boredom), other types a bit stronger. With it incumbent upon us to get more used to tolerating various types of discomfort - if said discomfort isn't something health-related that can be relieved through appropriate self-care.

 

[Buddy]

...I have to say that my first reaction to TC's text was that it was too dark

It was dark. Which is why I asked how he could possibly have arrived there. Thing is, he's not wrong because I've been there too but I didn't stay for whatever reason. Before I rose up out of it somewhat, I kinda experienced a sort of existential nausea or revulsion at the totality of all the philosophizing that has been done over the human condition for thousands of years. I don't even want to hear or say another philosophical word about anything the rest of my life, I think (though I may do it accidentally).

-----------

mkrnhr, thanks for the link to that thread about Stoics. That's kind of where I've settled in, emotionally speaking, I think. The simple joys in life. I've been thinking if it involves the simple day to day functioning of the human organism and doesn't involve a demand to repeat certain pleasures over and over or to do anything in particular with those experiences (like talk incessantly about them either to self or to others), then it's more in line with a natural functioning of the body.

Particularly valuable to me on that thread is reply #14, obyvatel's digression into Lectures on Jung's Typology. The "covering up" reactions and the connection to Gurdjieff's mention of "rolls" that "produce ready made thoughts, feelings and reactions." To me, this is all an elaboration of why "trying to stop a habit" by choosing to do so only makes one neurotic. One's system wants two conflicting things at the same time as the "inferior function" is all the while throwing up the opposite of what you're consciously striving for as a way to achieve a balance for the overall system in the "now."

I don't know if I said all that right. Maybe it makes some kind of sense.

 

[mkrnhr]

Fair enough - though I suspect a lot of that type of 'shallow' behavior ... is to dull 'pain' (of various types), some of it incredibly petty (like boredom), other types a bit stronger. With it incumbent upon us to get more used to tolerating various types of discomfort - if said discomfort isn't something health-related that can be relieved through appropriate self-care.

True, it is often used to escape a painful situation. Sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it is not. Pleasure doesn't negate pain, it momentarily distracts from it, which can be helpful sometimes, especially if the source of pain is being fixed. Otherwise, one keeps pushing on the pleasure button ad nauseam, without achieving anything in the end. It depends on the aim to achieve, and how it is dealt with. Pleasure for pleasure's sake on the other hand is pointless if not worse.
Like many other experiences in life, pleasure is not evil in itself. It all depends on how we use it, and whether we let control us or not.

 

[T.C.]

Does it not depend on what the pleasure seeking is?

For example, some people will seek pleasure through drugs or living hedonistically, whilst others will seek pleasure through arranging for a bbq with their family, or going camping, spending time with their kids doing activities, learning a new skill, exploring nature etc... Is it not dependant on context as to whether it's a bad thing or just a healthy human endeavour that nourishes life and well-being?

I think what TC meant is pleasure seeking for the self.

Spending time with your own kids, camping or having a bbq with friends and family should be fun. Because it is fun to be part of their life so that you can take care and love them.

Maybe TC can explain the context by examples?

Yes, when I use the word pleasure, I'm thinking in terms of physical gratification. And that could include a compulsive behaviour too, like gambling - not just ingesting a substance - because of the reward chemicals/dissociation/gratification.

The examples luke gives I would refer to as fulfilling, although there is a type of pleasure that comes with those, too. But as Carl says, it's different. The pleasure I refer to isn't fulfilling. It's strictly self-focused, "STS Black Hole" style. And the C's said that what gets sucked into a black hole becomes effectively non-existent - hence, unfulfilling.

But I take it you are criticizing the hunt for such pleasure above whatever the 'normal' baseline level is, similar to the rat pushing the lever forever for the next endorphin hit.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

No I am talking about intent.

The intent part is really important, although it doesn't necessarily have to be conscious intent. It's like, what's the platform you're operating from? What's the underlying, background level, primary motivation for what you do? At a BBQ, one person might be there to intentionally derive pleasure from the experience because their brain is crying out for attention, interaction, stimulation, dissociation from their life problems, but another person could be going there with no anticipation of anything other than the fact that they'll be sharing the company of people they care about.

While the former may manage to derive some of the pleasure they're seeking, I think it's be tense to be around them and their aura may make other people try to avoid them, and their interaction doesn't feed others, but drains, and they probably leave dissatisfied because the gathering didn't live up to their expectations - while the latter person is probably more enjoyable to spend time with because there's no (or less of an) agenda, and they're relaxed, and so those they interact with relax, too, and there's a mural feeding that happens, and everyone is able to take what's naturally given through the experience. Kind of like the difference between farming raping the planet, versus hunter gatherers accepting the gifts that nature naturally offers.

how did you think this could be used by someone in the Work?

There are many people here on the forum who are struggling with addictions and compulsive behaviours, cravings for ex's, for dissociation, for harmful substances.

Even though these felt needs are probably rooted in our development through our environment, personal experience has taught me that we can stop acting on habits that are based in pleasure seeking by getting over the need to seek that sort of pleasure, and just stopping.

Maybe someone suffers a trauma during the imprinting phase which leads to a debilitating problem in adulthood - how likely is the "you've got to process and work through your past trauma" approach going to be feasible. What if you can work the other way? What if you can reframe your 'problem' (which yeah, may be a symptom) in a way as to view it more simply? I crave X because it brings me pleasure but it is detrimental to me. Therefore, I need to stop valuing the feeling of that kind of pleasure, the attainment of which has become a habit for me. Then, if you work on the manifestation that's ruining you, and get through it and past it and not do it any more, isn't that a good thing, regardless of whether you've gotten to the bottom of what made you susceptible in the first place?

By sharing what I wrote, I thought others who are struggling might identify and maybe at least give them a glimpse of what craving is rooted in, and give it it's due: all cravings for something we're addicted to are because we habitually used whatever it was we crave, and regardless of why we started doing it in the first place, we carry it on out of habit, and habits can be broken if we change our attitude towards pleasure.

So, I think it all comes down to that video posted on several threads about addiction, in which rats put into a 'rat park' don't get addicted; with the implication that humans with strong social and family connections (the 'human park') also don't get addicted. And I bet they take a lot of pleasure in life.

The thing is, rat park really was an ideal environment, a controlled experiment. How many of us can say we live in an environment so conducive to our well being? Personally, I want to be master of myself so that I can cope in any living situation and not have to depend on an ideal that is unattainable. I found that I could do this when I was living a strict, disciplined lifestyle - almost ascetic - but when I start to indulge myself, it's a slippery slope. And the more disciplined life, not letting my physiology/reward system govern me brought great stability and achievement, which brought contentment without me even trying to attain it.