Problems initiating communication, especially asking

[Psalehesost]

There's a major stumbling block for me in this "networking" thing, and that is to initiate communication in order to get feedback. I so far don't have any problem responding to things addressed to me, on the occasion that they are. When other people post to ask for thoughts on their thinking and experiences in life here, I find it perfectly natural that they - other people - do so, and that discussion follows, though I often defer replying when I get a general idea of a response, leaving it to people who can do a better job to reply.

But I find it hard to initiate a discussion - first of all, I have a hard time thinking of something that I think would be "worthwhile" to post and so have others spend time on.

[At this point, "I" imagine that there's not much of a problem anymore now that I've thought about it for a little bit and recognized what I'll post below [some of what I posted, there was more], and so not much of a point writing and posting this post. I however - different "I" - recognize that this indifference and feeling of "meh" that is now setting in will also occur as I write other things in the future, as it has in the past, leading often to the cancellation of ideas for posts and sometimes of postings that I'd begun to write]

Secondly, there is the idea that posting whatever I think of posting can't possibly make any good - that the result won't be constructive, that if anything I'll risk burning my chances with this group by posting too much noise. At first there may be enthusiasm, and an idea that "this could make for a good discussion", then this fades. And then perhaps resurfaces, then fades again as I think more of it and/or get closer to posting it.


On asking for help in any way (unless the request is subjectively felt to be "really made for") such as posting of how I understand an idea and asking for feedback, something I now think of doing on another topic - but if I get to writing, will probably find myself stumped as to how to write, then demotivated and indifferent, then cancelling the posting - there is another problem.

It seems to me, though this is "subtle" and more arrived at by analyzing things than felt in the moment, that I feel deficient if asking for help. There is an idea in me that I really should know or figure out everything by myself, and if I don't then it is hopeless. On the one hand, I know that the point of a network is for people to actively give the information needed for others to work - as evidenced by their active communication - when they don't know all they need to know to apply their ability to work. On the other hand, I seem to have been confusing "lack of information" for "ability to work" when considering myself, such that I thought that if I didn't eventually figure this or that out, then I would be deficient/defective/a hopeless case.

This "feeling deficient if asking for help" is active in everyday life also, and seems to lead to a rationalization that there's not really much of a need to ask for help anyway, thinking so while at the same time really knowing better, though the feeling of it being so along with my own initiative is "numbed" for as long as I face the choice of asking or not asking for help. And given this "idea" of help "not really being needed", I feel on top of that, as a result of it, that I'd just waste people's time needlessly if I'd ever ask - in many but not all contexts - that I'd be somewhat "needy".


There is an ingrained idea that I have to feel (I say "feel" rather than "be" because "passively" received help apparently does not count) self-sufficient, and asking for anything would be somewhat to admit defeat.

In addition, (stemming from the many years of bullying and emotional misery I went through in school, during which there were people who offered practically useless sympathetic words but could not actually help with the situation in any way, making me feel disdain for all useless sympathy) there is the idea that the only one who can help is me - if I am able to - and that if I cannot help myself wholly by myself, then it is hopeless and - nowadays - I simply become somewhat demotivated as a result; there is not any strong emotional response in recent years. Anyway, a "belief" that "there is no help" makes the suggestion of asking for help feel somewhat strange and unreal. Actually asking for help would also contradict this idea, which is another reason for inhibition.

Relevant to the above is the following, which I posted back in January:

Going on to emotional realizations, I had a thought that seemed strange to me at first. I had seen someone noting emphasizing with someone else on this forum, which brings me to some strange programming I found. Somehow, while knowing that normal people have empathy, I at the same time somehow thought that such things as people genuinely emphasizing simply do not occur in reality - at least not so long as there is some degree of personal association, in this case regarding me and this forum and its community; if I'd read an account of someone genuinely emphasizing that was free from any such association, as in some random book, then this idea would not have been triggered - and so, when without any prior noticeable reaction the impression of reading this came up in my mind, it somehow led me to the thought: "What if they [you, the community] emphasize/would emphasize [hypothetically, given something to emphasize with] with me?" - and the thought simply seemed "strange", almost silly, to me. "No." or "Why would we unless we had a reason to?", I imagined a plain and simple answer that I'd get if hypothetically I posed such a question. And then I felt on the other hand an affirmative hypothetical answer to this question along with a realization contrary to this idea I carried, and so I came to think of it, after some time realizing that this idea I'd carried for some years and unconsciously applied to each and every of my expectations of people more or less "around me" was a piece of ponerized programming.

This particular related piece of the problem I have however "overcome", or so I think.


Right now, I have a slightly "sinking" feeling of demotivation, and feel that if I'd click "Post" and submit this post for you to read and give any time and attention to, then I'd be vaguely parasitic and needlessly "taking". But I'm going to ask for your thoughts and do so anyway.

 

[Buddy]

Right now, I have a slightly "sinking" feeling of demotivation, and feel that if I'd click "Post" and submit this post for you to read and give any time and attention to, then I'd be vaguely parasitic and needlessly "taking". But I'm going to ask for your thoughts and do so anyway.

Hi Csayeursost;

I have read many of your posts. While I never found anything with which I disagree, or anything I felt I could add, my major impression is simply one of drifting on a sea of over-analysis and then keeping it to yourself, more or less. The goal of this internal analysis being to continue it until there is no longer anything to do.
I'm thinking that this is mostly subjective on my part though, as many times in my past I have been "stopped" from trying to understand something (and therefore be able to use it for my growth) by those who have stated the same to me. If this is the case, then I am simply projecting.

This "feeling deficient if asking for help" is active in everyday life also, and seems to lead to a rationalization that there's not really much of a need to ask for help anyway, thinking so while at the same time really knowing better, though the feeling of it being so along with my own initiative is "numbed" for as long as I face the choice of asking or not asking for help. And given this "idea" of help "not really being needed", I feel on top of that, as a result of it, that I'd just waste people's time needlessly if I'd ever ask - in many but not all contexts - that I'd be somewhat "needy".

Well, outside the forum, outside the Work, that's understandable...considering the kind of help you're likely to receive, but here, it's supposed to be a different story. If there are any real 'needy' issues or such, wouldn't it be beneficial to know about them? From co-linear friends? From those who could use your help as well?

In addition, (stemming from the many years of bullying and emotional misery I went through in school, during which there were people who offered practically useless sympathetic words but could not actually help with the situation in any way, making me feel disdain for all useless sympathy) there is the idea that the only one who can help is me - if I am able to - and that if I cannot help myself wholly by myself, then it is hopeless and - nowadays - I simply become somewhat demotivated as a result; there is not any strong emotional response in recent years. Anyway, a "belief" that "there is no help" makes the suggestion of asking for help feel somewhat strange and unreal. Actually asking for help would also contradict this idea, which is another reason for inhibition.

I understand this completely due to my own "bullied" past, but this can create a very strong "I" that seeks total independence. It doesn't seem to want anyone's help, and it doesn't want to help anyone.
You don't want to know how much this grown man has cried over this realization.

On asking for help in any way (unless the request is subjectively felt to be "really made for") such as posting of how I understand an idea and asking for feedback, something I now think of doing on another topic - but if I get to writing, will probably find myself stumped as to how to write, then demotivated and indifferent, then cancelling the posting - there is another problem.

What do you mean, "how to write". Do you mean how to be specific with your questions?

 

[T.C.]

I find it hard to initiate a discussion - first of all, I have a hard time thinking of something that I think would be "worthwhile" to post and so have others spend time on.

Well, this is only my opinion, but that's not really how it works, at least not on this forum.

Secondly, there is the idea that posting whatever I think of posting can't possibly make any good - that the result won't be constructive

Exactly.

It seems to me, though this is "subtle" and more arrived at by analyzing things than felt in the moment, that I feel deficient if asking for help. There is an idea in me that I really should know or figure out everything by myself, and if I don't then it is hopeless. On the one hand, I know that the point of a network is for people to actively give the information needed for others to work - as evidenced by their active communication - when they don't know all they need to know to apply their ability to work. On the other hand, I seem to have been confusing "lack of information" for "ability to work" when considering myself, such that I thought that if I didn't eventually figure this or that out, then I would be deficient/defective/a hopeless case.

Seems to me that you actually have a lot of the answers to your "ponderings", you just need to go through your ideas and sort the wheat from the chaff. When you say, "There is an idea in me that I really should know or figure out everything by myself, and if I don't then it is hopeless" you're looking at it in a very black and white way. The idea is to think for yourself and do as much as possible for yourself to figure out the answers to whatever you're thinking about, and then, if you find you're stuck on something, just give a concise explanation of the problem and how you see it, and ask if anyone can help. Or, if you have put a lot of effort in and you feel you've reached some good conclusions, just network those conclusions to see if there are any holes in your logic - again, as concisely as possible.

You seem to know this though when you say, "I know that the point of a network is for people to actively give the information needed for others to work - as evidenced by their active communication - when they don't know all they need to know to apply their ability to work."

And when you say, "I thought that if I didn't eventually figure this or that out, then I would be deficient/defective/a hopeless case." you should know that even if you feel this judgemental towards yourself, that isn't how this forum works, and you'll always get fair and understanding feedback if you ask with sincerity.

there is the idea that the only one who can help is me

Yes, that's very true. However, the devil is in the details. If you have a sincere wish to work out a problem, then you'll put in the effort to find the answers. And learning to explain exactly what it is that's on your mind and conveying it in a clear and considerate way so as to "truly ask for help" when you need it, is in itself, you helping yourself.

To convey things to other people so that they'll understand, means you need to be able to convey it to yourself first, so that you understand.

A couple of terms you might wish to look up are "thinking with a hammer" and "Occam's Razor".

 

[PepperFritz]

Hi Csayeursost:

The thing to remember is that this is a "school" of sorts, a place for people to learn. While some members may have more experience/knowledge than others in certain areas, we are ALL in the same boat of being here to LEARN -- to see ourselves, others, and the world around us more clearly and objectively, and to recognize our own subjectivity, our emotional issues, programs, mechanical behaviour, sacred cows, wishful thinking, etc. There is no one on this forum who does not have a great deal to learn in this area, as it is an ongoing, never-ending process, like peeling away the layers of an onion. To be afraid of exposing your own subjectivity is to be afraid of learning, to be afraid of participating in the very purpose of this forum.

In that respect, the forum is like a microcosm of third-density, where we cannot avoid making mistakes because the very purpose of being in third-density is to make mistakes and then learn from them. As the C's have said:

A: Is there a tool which makes it
unnecessary for the child to learn how to ride the
bicycle in order to know how to ride it?!?

A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
...It is like this: After you have completed all your
lessons in "third grade," where do you go? [...]
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in
order to be allowed to go there?

Try to work on simply ACCEPTING that you WILL make mistakes, that you WILL expose your subjectivity, that you WILL occasionally post "noise", that you WILL have a mirror held up to you. Because that is the purpose of this forum, and how it functions. Try to have faith that you have the ability to be receptive to feedback and constructive criticism, because otherwise, you wouldn't be here, right? And try to have faith in the fact that people on this forum are NOT going to respond to you as the world in general might, that they want to help you learn.

An analogy would be going to the local swimming pool for swimming lessons. If someone fears and avoids going into the water because they will expose themselves as someone who is unable to swim, that would be rather self-defeating, yes? Because they are there to learn to swim. And in the process they are probably going to do a lot of silly, embarrassing things -- just like everyone else who is there to learn to swim. You are not going to be invited to take swimming lessons with Olympic-level swimmers who are just going to laugh and sneer and become exasperated with your lack of swimming skills. You will be among others who also do not know how to swim, as well as those who are better swimmers who wish to teach you how to swim.

In your time on the forum you have demonstrated that you have a desire to learn. You have also demonstrated that you have the ability to learn. Therefore, I, for one, have complete faith in your ability to step outside of your comfort zone and expose yourself to possible critical feedback, and to then learn and grow from the consideration and application of that feedback. Shouldn't you have the same faith in yourself...? :)

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Hi Csayeursost,

I understand what you are saying, I have the same feeling, which is the reason why I haven't posted in a long time. Although I agree with Pepperfritz about this being a school with some people with more experience than others, sometimes it feels to me that all members of the forum are in the same classroom while some are at university level and others at kindergarten level. As I personally feel at kindergarten level, I tend to avoid leaving comments that may make noise. But the longer you wait, the less you post, the more impressive it gets.
Lots of programs can hinder you from posting, the need to be perfect, the fear of being judged, laziness (a big one with me..), etc. You just have to observe them for what they are and post anyway, I guess.
Thank you for being brave enough to post this time and giving me the incentive to post again!
Now, that's constructive!
;D

 

[Gawan]

Hello Csayeursost,

many of your concerns passing also my mind very often. Having difficulties to ask for help, I try to sort out anything by myself, because to ask for help, so it seems to me, is showing weakness.
But hey, I'm still alive after I asked for help on this forum and I learned something too. ;)

Secondly, there is the idea that posting whatever I think of posting can't possibly make any good - that the result won't be constructive, that if anything I'll risk burning my chances with this group by posting too much noise. At first there may be enthusiasm, and an idea that "this could make for a good discussion", then this fades. And then perhaps resurfaces, then fades again as I think more of it and/or get closer to posting it.

I think, it is the problem that you think, that your postings can't make any good. But to clarify, you cannot calculate the outcome of your postings (the responses), things happening and mirrors don't come up at (your) will. Maybe it is also to secure yourself?

Have you read already the 4 recommended psychology books? ("Myth of sanity", "Trapped in the mirror", "Unholy hungers" and "The narcissistic family")



IMO Pepperfritz is really spot on, and thank you Pepperfritz for that analogy.

 

[FireShadow]

Hi Csayeursost:

The thing to remember is that this is a "school" of sorts, a place for people to learn. While some members may have more experience/knowledge than others in certain areas, we are ALL in the same boat of being here to LEARN -- to see ourselves, others, and the world around us more clearly and objectively, and to recognize our own subjectivity, our emotional issues, programs, mechanical behaviour, sacred cows, wishful thinking, etc. There is no one on this forum who does not have a great deal to learn in this area, as it is an ongoing, never-ending process, like peeling away the layers of an onion. To be afraid of exposing your own subjectivity is to be afraid of learning, to be afraid of participating in the very purpose of this forum.

In that respect, the forum is like a microcosm of third-density, where we cannot avoid making mistakes because the very purpose of being in third-density is to make mistakes and then learn from them. As the C's have said:

A: Is there a tool which makes it
unnecessary for the child to learn how to ride the
bicycle in order to know how to ride it?!?

A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
...It is like this: After you have completed all your
lessons in "third grade," where do you go? [...]
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in
order to be allowed to go there?

Try to work on simply ACCEPTING that you WILL make mistakes, that you WILL expose your subjectivity, that you WILL occasionally post "noise", that you WILL have a mirror held up to you. Because that is the purpose of this forum, and how it functions. Try to have faith that you have the ability to be receptive to feedback and constructive criticism, because otherwise, you wouldn't be here, right? And try to have faith in the fact that people on this forum are NOT going to respond to you as the world in general might, that they want to help you learn.

An analogy would be going to the local swimming pool for swimming lessons. If someone fears and avoids going into the water because they will expose themselves as someone who is unable to swim, that would be rather self-defeating, yes? Because they are there to learn to swim. And in the process they are probably going to do a lot of silly, embarrassing things -- just like everyone else who is there to learn to swim. You are not going to be invited to take swimming lessons with Olympic-level swimmers who are just going to laugh and sneer and become exasperated with your lack of swimming skills. You will be among others who also do not know how to swim, as well as those who are better swimmers who wish to teach you how to swim.

In your time on the forum you have demonstrated that you have a desire to learn. You have also demonstrated that you have the ability to learn. Therefore, I, for one, have complete faith in your ability to step outside of your comfort zone and expose yourself to possible critical feedback, and to then learn and grow from the consideration and application of that feedback. Shouldn't you have the same faith in yourself...? :)

Thank you Pepperfritz for saying this so eloquently.

My experience here bears out what Pepperfritz is saying. I have often felt "anxiety" in posting but that anxiety has lessened each time I post as I see how very helpful the critical feedback is and how it is not judgementally motivated. The group has shown a genuine caring in providing feedback each time I asked. This shows me that my anxiety is related to a program of mine, nothing more. The way to face it is to go ahead and post my questions in spite of my anxiety.

 

[Psalehesost]

I think, it is the problem that you think, that your postings can't make any good. But to clarify, you cannot calculate the outcome of your postings (the responses), things happening and mirrors don't come up at (your) will. Maybe it is also to secure yourself?

Have you read already the 4 recommended psychology books? ("Myth of sanity", "Trapped in the mirror", "Unholy hungers" and "The narcissistic family")

That is the problem [edit: as for that particular one, not what the whole post was about] in a nutshell, yes - a doubt that sets in after thinking of something at first seemingly good to post. While I don't try to calculate the total outcome, I've certainly been trying hard - habitually - to calculate the impression piecewise of my text in fear of conveying something that turns out bad when read between the lines. As for mirrors, part of the personality would have liked to have more of that - it would very much like to be "struck down" finally, for some reason. (some "I" once said of The Work: "It allows me to live, die and improve all at once! Win-win-win!")

Have of those books read: Myth of Sanity, then Unholy Hungers (quite a blast in terms of insights and psychological perspective! also led me towards ridding myself of a buffered bunch of "I"s when I caught them in the act), now Trapped in the Mirror (a bit over a third through - though not as relevant personally in a direct way, some of what it says can be "mapped" to the psychological damage I've had in school, and it adds to psychological knowledge and perspective). Don't have the fourth one yet - a little bit harder (will have to search more places) to find locally.

Lots of programs can hinder you from posting, the need to be perfect, the fear of being judged, laziness (a big one with me..), etc. You just have to observe them for what they are and post anyway, I guess.

Some "I"s "need to be perfect" in terms of expressing myself - not making any mistake in how I write - and the below mentioned fear not of being judged in general, but of being rejected hits closest to the mark.

The thing to remember is that this is a "school" of sorts, a place for people to learn. ... There is no one on this forum who does not have a great deal to learn in this area, as it is an ongoing, never-ending process, like peeling away the layers of an onion. To be afraid of exposing your own subjectivity is to be afraid of learning, to be afraid of participating in the very purpose of this forum.

[...]

Try to work on simply ACCEPTING that you WILL make mistakes, that you WILL expose your subjectivity, that you WILL occasionally post "noise", that you WILL have a mirror held up to you. Because that is the purpose of this forum, and how it functions. Try to have faith that you have the ability to be receptive to feedback and constructive criticism, because otherwise, you wouldn't be here, right? And try to have faith in the fact that people on this forum are NOT going to respond to you as the world in general might, that they want to help you learn.

I don't have any general problem with exposing things or meeting a mirror - should such come to happen eventually - in fact, I've tried to include some information on how I think in many posts so that it may be evaluated and eventual problems found, though I've yet to have much of the semi-expected-to-come super-duper-critical evaluation. I wrote in my very first post that: "Having observed this forum for a bit, would surprise me if you didn't jump all over this post seeking to tear any dubious parts to shreds - I hope you do, as such would mean potential for improvement. :)" But such has yet to happen with any post.

A bit before that in said first post, I also expressed a little bit of worry with my comment that I hoped the post wasn't "too baked or noodly, I hope", fearing a little that I might be canned, put among the "baked noodles". (indeed, the first post was a bit "baked and noodly", though that tendency has significantly decreased since, or so I think. but there is that fear belonging to the Predator's mind that you - the community - might find "something wrong" with me and reject me as a result - indeed there is something wrong with the Predator's mind, and there had been a long-standing practice of some subtle "I"s - this being a still-present-as-of-yesterday-but-seemingly-almost-gone-today remnant as applied here of that bigger OCD-ish issue I described back in January that I'd had for two years - to "imagine" in me vaguely the marks of some random - this shifting - nasty person this forum has had experience with, projecting this idea onto me when I write my posts. but the one that is defective and has to go, I realize, is the Predator's mind)

So, I guess I needed to put behind the exaggerated fear of what might happen when I mess up when all that happens is that I might of this be told.

In that respect [having to make mistakes to learn], the forum is like a microcosm of third-density, where we cannot avoid making mistakes because the very purpose of being in third-density is to make mistakes and then learn from them. As the C's have said:

A: Is there a tool which makes it
unnecessary for the child to learn how to ride the
bicycle in order to know how to ride it?!?

A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
...It is like this: After you have completed all your
lessons in "third grade," where do you go? [...]
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in
order to be allowed to go there?

...

In your time on the forum you have demonstrated that you have a desire to learn. You have also demonstrated that you have the ability to learn. Therefore, I, for one, have complete faith in your ability to step outside of your comfort zone and expose yourself to possible critical feedback, and to then learn and grow from the consideration and application of that feedback. Shouldn't you have the same faith in yourself...? :)

I hadn't thought of applying these quotes to the stepped process of The Work.

As for the last bit, the inwards-projection I mentioned (and the general thoughts of the personality-piece involved) subconsciously influenced my estimation of things, I think.


In response to the following:

I have read many of your posts. While I never found anything with which I disagree, or anything I felt I could add, my major impression is simply one of drifting on a sea of over-analysis and then keeping it to yourself, more or less. The goal of this internal analysis being to continue it until there is no longer anything to do.
I'm thinking that this is mostly subjective on my part though, as many times in my past I have been "stopped" from trying to understand something (and therefore be able to use it for my growth) by those who have stated the same to me. If this is the case, then I am simply projecting.

Seems to me that you actually have a lot of the answers to your "ponderings", you just need to go through your ideas and sort the wheat from the chaff. [...] If you have a sincere wish to work out a problem, then you'll put in the effort to find the answers. And learning to explain exactly what it is that's on your mind and conveying it in a clear and considerate way so as to "truly ask for help" when you need it, is in itself, you helping yourself.

...and in reading the rest of the three first responses (the ones made at the time) I came to sense that there was indeed something a bit amiss in my thinking and comprehension - that there were "gaps" in it. I eventually came to think of when I fairly recently read something I wrote elsewhere before finding this place and the accompanying material, and had noted how, while each thing I'd written was in itself consistent and seemingly OK (though I don't quite agree with myself in the past on everything), I felt that there was something a bit amiss in reading the several comments of mine belonging to a discussion, and noted vaguely that each belonged to a separate, narrow piece of perspective, and that there was a "gap" in the understanding displayed - something missing.

And I realized now a tendency of mine, namely to think around a certain issue and build up a "puddle" of thought, in itself well-thought out, but disconnected from all the other similarly made puddles of thought. And then I jump between the different thought-puddles. When trying to understand a whole that goes beyond those thought-puddles, I can so spin around in circles for a bit, rather than "zooming out" and trying to get a grasp of what should be between the puddles of thought. (which I then did, which made things gradually "fall into place" better)

The "flavor" of my thinking and comprehension has increasingly changed over the last year towards at the very least "larger" puddles of thought, and towards connecting things across a greater distance - and generally understanding things differently from from the way I used to, a deeper perspective that contains a better abstract understanding being a big difference. But I guess this ongoing change - a gradual "rewiring"? - is very far from done.

In addition, (stemming from the many years of bullying and emotional misery I went through in school, during which there were people who offered practically useless sympathetic words but could not actually help with the situation in any way, making me feel disdain for all useless sympathy) there is the idea that the only one who can help is me - if I am able to - and that if I cannot help myself wholly by myself, then it is hopeless and - nowadays - I simply become somewhat demotivated as a result; there is not any strong emotional response in recent years. Anyway, a "belief" that "there is no help" makes the suggestion of asking for help feel somewhat strange and unreal. Actually asking for help would also contradict this idea, which is another reason for inhibition.

I understand this completely due to my own "bullied" past, but this can create a very strong "I" that seeks total independence. It doesn't seem to want anyone's help, and it doesn't want to help anyone.
You don't want to know how much this grown man has cried over this realization.

I think I've mostly - though probably not completely - avoided this latter issue. I sometimes find it simply strangely awkward in real life to help people with things, much the same as asking for things.

On asking for help in any way (unless the request is subjectively felt to be "really made for") such as posting of how I understand an idea and asking for feedback, something I now think of doing on another topic - but if I get to writing, will probably find myself stumped as to how to write, then demotivated and indifferent, then cancelling the posting - there is another problem.

What do you mean, "how to write". Do you mean how to be specific with your questions?

I mean how to get my thoughts down accurately, or without missing something important or the writing otherwise giving a skewed impression, or simply having a general idea but being at a loss for specific words to convey it well. But I think this will be less of a problem in the future, since this issue is directly proportional to the amount of program activity.

 

[Turgon]

I find that you do a really good job of holding up the mirror for me Csayeursost. Reading some of your posts really mirrors a lot of my thoughts and feelings in regards to this forum, mySelf, and a lot of the programs that are still strongly part of my personality. In fact writing this down right now is hard for me because as I read through this thread, all these ideas, thoughts and responses to what is written streams into my head as I'm reading them, yet when I get to the actual process of responding, it seems as if I'm writing something down just for the sake of it, as if the initial sincerity of the thoughts and ideas I have disappeared and whats left is just a vague memory of the essence of what I wanted to say. Even though initially I really have some, I think meaningful thoughts on the subject matter at hand, at some point in time between reading the thread and responding I lose it. Often because of this im extremely unhappy with what I write, or dissect it before I post it, or I just delete and not respond at all.

I think when it comes to posting on this forum, some anticipatory desire takes over, which completely undermines my intent for being here. I often have so many questions that I have trouble with, so my initial response is to ask the forum, someone there might know what this or that means. But then I feel like Im taking the easy way out and shouldnt rely on the people here , that I need to put the hard work and effort to find out the answers for myself. That if I don't put in the effort, or suffer a little, I won't progress.

At earlier times I used to actually play out what the potential responses might be to my "post" and try to figure out what the potential answers might be in order to find out what I was going through. And very often these same thoughts prevent me from posting, because i KNOW that these are STS ways of thinking. Anticipating answers is closing up my mind, because now I'm expecting a certain answer rather then just BEing open and analyzing all possible reasons. And in all honesty, I don't want to be a burden or bring narrow-mindedness to this forum, because i believe in the Work, and am applying to my life, but have so many programs, that are so subtle they go unchecked. I find it easier to do the Work in my daily life, because im surrounded by people who show me exactly what not to be, that when I come here, I'm fearful that the ideals and concepts brought forth by this group is something that I'll never be.

 

[Buddy]

Hi DanielS;

I posted a comment in your introductory thread that may, or may not, be of interest.

 

[Psalehesost]

[I don't know how much more there is to say strictly on the original topic of the thread; in any case, this will go a bit about and beside it - so perhaps a split if it grows as a separate discussion?]

I don't know whether you're a man 2 (predominantly subjectively-feeling) or a man 3 (predominantly subjectively-thinking), if either of them. If a man 2, then perhaps (or perhaps regardless) this will be of some use. It is also something I want to "network", to see if I am on the right track as far as this goes - and also I suppose with this networking thing (as such, I guess it somewhat fits the thread).

Reading some of your posts really mirrors a lot of my thoughts and feelings in regards to this forum, mySelf, and a lot of the programs that are still strongly part of my personality.

In terms of this kind of "mirroring", seems you returned the favor, though not upon immediately reading. When I later thought of it, and my thoughts returned specifically to the following pieces:

... i believe in the Work, and am applying to my life, but have so many programs, that are so subtle they go unchecked. ... I'm fearful that the ideals and concepts brought forth by this group is something that I'll never be.

(sidenote: as for your finding it "easier to do the Work in my daily life", I find in my case that I am thinking and introspecting the most when by myself, and when around people, making conscious efforts not to react emotionally and also mentally - at the same time, as well as countering the physical tension that then results, also at the same time - while observing myself to the chatter and other things not directed at me going on around me - makes for some friction, and seems to make a difference)

At first I thought that this - having such an attitude - was not the case for me, but then I began to realize that it just might be the case. Indeed there seemed to be something to this, though at the same time I couldn't find corresponding thinking in me.

This, I guess, was a psychological blind spot - lots of "thought-puddles" all around, but none in the center. But in terms of emotional attitude, there was a bit of a match, though it is not a large thing. Perhaps recent ongoing efforts at "unclogging" my emotional center (for I now "perceive" it - having found and gotten rid of some - to be full of stale old rubbish that keeps it half-inert; time for more emotional recapitulation) - so as to free up some much-needed "emotional bandwidth" - is what allowed me to eventually become aware of this.

Then came an "integration" of perspective of sorts, something gradually "sinking in" in two directions, and so overcoming this previously hidden not-so-strong-but-somewhat-thought-coloring attitude (another source and part of the problem I posted of in my last reply that I hadn't found). And I've also come up with the following thoughts:


The thinking center, comparing and combining/deriving information, is what keeps track of what you've done and accomplished, knowing the achievements and comparing the past to the present. The emotional center, on the other hand, feels the impact of one's realizations.

If the thinking center is the center of awareness, one is more likely to have a good idea of what one has done and accomplished in Work, but to lose track of the full extent of the present situation and ugliness uncovered, knowing only the part of the whole presently focused on.

If the emotional center is the center of awareness, one is more likely to feel the ugliness of what one has presently uncovered in oneself, without knowing what it means to have uncovered this, and while lacking a perspective on what one has accomplished in the past.


As one "peels the onion", after each layer gone, one's view of "the onion" gets clearer and fuller, and so it tends to always seem the same size (rather than shrinking) so long as one keeps up in gaining new awareness. If the awareness then is feeling-centered, it may feel like you haven't progressed, because having "peeled" a couple of layers, it still feels as bad and looks as ugly. On the other hand, if the awareness is thinking-centered, then the lack of fuller awareness of the extent of the present situation means the "view" of "the onion" doesn't keep up in improving in clarity and fullness, and so one underestimates the ugliness that remains and overestimates one's progress, at least in the thinking one is aware of - at the same time, one can have a separated emotional awareness of it (where, as described, it continually feels about as ugly), and this may lead to emotional skewing of one's thinking that comes and goes. If the two perspectives integrate, however, then one gets a more realistic view both of progress and of the present situation.


Correct or not, and analysis or over-analysis?

 

[Turgon]

(sidenote: as for your finding it "easier to do the Work in my daily life", I find in my case that I am thinking and introspecting the most when by myself, and when around people, making conscious efforts not to react emotionally and also mentally - at the same time, as well as countering the physical tension that then results, also at the same time - while observing myself to the chatter and other things not directed at me going on around me - makes for some friction, and seems to make a difference)

I also make a conscious effort to not react emotionally or get caught up in a situation that might be perceived as "parasitic" or "feeding"(which includes me feeding, as well as others feeding on me). At some point early in my readings of the Wave, I had the idea that it's important to pay attention to multiple things at the same time. So when interacting with people, I pay close attention, to my thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations (inner-environment) and at the same time observe my external environment, how I'm interacting with others and how they are interacting with one another, the dynamics of the situation. That, and also, as of late I've been practicing being more open with conversation, because in the past I often had the tendency to be too defensive in my posture, or easily prone to engage in draining arguments based on differing opinions. So from that sense because I consistently practice this, interacting with other people is "easier in my daily life". I've noticed, particularly that my relationships with other people have changed, I'm gauging more of a sense of what I should and shouldn't talk about in front of other people based on how they want to live, rather than my previous ideas of "converting" people.

The only time I have problems practicing this is when I'm doing monotonous work or if someone manages to knock me out of this state. It's during those times that I revert back to wishful thinking, or create scenarios in my head, I go back into La-La-Land, dreaming of random things that may or may not occur in my life.

As for being a Man 2 or 3, Im not too sure. I havent read any of Gurdjieff's work yet, but from what I know about myself, I'd have to say I'm more of a subjective thinker, which in turn affects my emotions. OSIT. I'd have to read more about the subject though.

However...

The thinking center, comparing and combining/deriving information, is what keeps track of what you've done and accomplished, knowing the achievements and comparing the past to the present. The emotional center, on the other hand, feels the impact of one's realizations.

If the thinking center is the center of awareness, one is more likely to have a good idea of what one has done and accomplished in Work, but to lose track of the full extent of the present situation and ugliness uncovered, knowing only the part of the whole presently focused on.

If the emotional center is the center of awareness, one is more likely to feel the ugliness of what one has presently uncovered in oneself, without knowing what it means to have uncovered this, and while lacking a perspective on what one has accomplished in the past.


As one "peels the onion", after each layer gone, one's view of "the onion" gets clearer and fuller, and so it tends to always seem the same size (rather than shrinking) so long as one keeps up in gaining new awareness. If the awareness then is feeling-centered, it may feel like you haven't progressed, because having "peeled" a couple of layers, it still feels as bad and looks as ugly. On the other hand, if the awareness is thinking-centered, then the lack of fuller awareness of the extent of the present situation means the "view" of "the onion" doesn't keep up in improving in clarity and fullness, and so one underestimates the ugliness that remains and overestimates one's progress, at least in the thinking one is aware of - at the same time, one can have a separated emotional awareness of it (where, as described, it continually feels about as ugly), and this may lead to emotional skewing of one's thinking that comes and goes. If the two perspectives integrate, however, then one gets a more realistic view both of progress and of the present situation

... This makes sense to me. I need to reiterate that I havent read Gurdjieff, but it seems like a very plausible way at looking at it. The difference between the emotional center feeling the impact of new realizations, as well as the intellectual centre seeing the progress and situation. I dont think it's over-analysis. It seems like a very good working hypothesis, and an important goal to integrate the emotional center and intellectual center into an even greater awareness.

I don't know how much more there is to say strictly on the original topic of the thread; in any case, this will go a bit about and beside it - so perhaps a split if it grows as a separate discussion?]

Maybe this is a bit of Non-Linear and Mosaic thinking, one idea leads into another, so there never is a "point" just open dialogue.

 

[Psalehesost]

DanielS, this - man 1, 2 and 3 - can apart from in ISOTM also be read of in the glossary.

 

[Buddy]

Hi Csayeursost;

Since you asked for some feedback, I thought I'd offer a thought or two. Perhaps I will be able expose some of my own subjectivity and benefit as well.

[quote author=Csayeursost]
That is the problem [edit: as for that particular one, not what the whole post was about] in a nutshell, yes - a doubt that sets in after thinking of something at first seemingly good to post.
[/quote]

Sometimes indecision can masquerade as doubt, although the two words are often used as synonyms. Using my impressions of your posts as a guide, I would suggest that instead of 'doubt', the word your looking for is probably just indecision...defined in this context as "a lack of firmness of purpose." Since purpose plays a big role in deciding what and/or if to post, perhaps it would be more productive to consider 'purpose' so that you have a way of guageing the 'appropriateness' or usefulness of the feedback received.


[quote author=Csayeursost]
While I don't try to calculate the total outcome, I've certainly been trying hard - habitually - to calculate the impression piecewise of my text in fear of conveying something that turns out bad when read between the lines.
[/quote]

I do some of that too, I suppose, but isn't this fear simply internal considering? There will be so many people, on so many different levels of knowledge, reading these posts. Many will read between the lines and possibly even read more into it than what is there. Some (possibly me) will even misunderstand and wind up having their subjectivity exposed. I'm certain that you're aware that it's impossible to control everyone's perceptions. All you need is sincerity and honesty, I think.
I think you realized that when you said..."I think this will be less of a problem in the future, since this issue is directly proportional to the amount of program activity."


[quote author=Csayeursost]
As for mirrors, part of the personality would have liked to have more of that - it would very much like to be "struck down" finally, for some reason.
[/quote]

While I understand the mirror concept, and the many references to 'holding one up', I tend not to even think about it that way. It would probably give me the subjective impression that I am, somehow, qualified to do so. All I can do, or try to do, is offer my thoughts, impressions and/or knowledge about something (in the spirit of contribution), while relying on experienced members to help point out areas for correction/adjustment or further thought.


[quote author=Csayeursost]
Have of those books read: Myth of Sanity, then Unholy Hungers (quite a blast in terms of insights and psychological perspective! also led me towards ridding myself of a buffered bunch of "I"s when I caught them in the act), now Trapped in the Mirror (a bit over a third through - though not as relevant personally in a direct way, some of what it says can be "mapped" to the psychological damage I've had in school, and it adds to psychological knowledge and perspective). Don't have the fourth one yet - a little bit harder (will have to search more places) to find locally.
[/quote]

In this thread , Laura talks, specifically, about the need for, and value of, the information in these books. She goes on to show how this study naturally flows into the study of psychopathy and how we can learn to recognize related traits in ourselves.
A mirror that will finally 'strike down' the false personality, as you describe, may be easier to find once all this understanding is "under hat", so to speak.


[quote author=Csayeursost]
At first I thought that this - having such an attitude - was not the case for me, but then I began to realize that it just might be the case. Indeed there seemed to be something to this, though at the same time I couldn't find corresponding thinking in me.

This, I guess, was a psychological blind spot - lots of "thought-puddles" all around, but none in the center.
[/quote]

That last sentence is intriguing, yet somewhat confusing to me. Is this a way of describing the lack of a coherent whole when making reference to a particular subject or idea? Sorta like saying 'ideas that are obviously related, yet seperate because I'm not sure how they link together...or what their common denominators are'?


[quote author=Csayeursost]
The thinking center, comparing and combining/deriving information, is what keeps track of what you've done and accomplished, knowing the achievements and comparing the past to the present.
[/quote]

Sorta like a data processor and recognizer and 'filer' of patterns? I wonder, though, whether the 'knowing' part goes deeper than the intellectual center? I'm not certain how to make the case for this, yet 'knowingness' seems somehow, more related to our essence than to the intellectual center; or, perhaps this only applies before we fuse a singular I.


[quote author=Csayeursost]
The emotional center, on the other hand, feels the impact of one's realizations.
[/quote]

I can see the sense in that. To me, it also seems to be a kind of 'container self' for all the values and beliefs related directly to one's experience of life...the experiences of feeling alive and one's relationship to those 'things' within oneself that enhance and support life as well as those things that diminish and threaten life. I'm not even sure if this description would make much sense to anyone but me.
But then, again, your point wasn't that you were trying to understand the emotional center, but rather, share some thoughts you had as a result of the integration you mentioned.


[quote author=Csayeursost]
Correct or not...
[/quote]

As you seem to be referring to your post as a whole, it seems to me the proper answer would be more along the lines of "not correct concept", because the question doesn't feel right.
It seems like, instead of asking "look what I understand about the function of my arm, and what it is supposed to do for me", you are asking "look how I put my body together...does it look right?".


[quote author=Csayeursost]
...analysis or over-analysis?
[/quote]

Not being certain of your overall purpose, I can't say. I'm thinking that what you are experiencing is really just the energy dissipation that can happen when the lower intellectual and lower emotional centers are working at cross-purposes.
I mean, you've got this great in-depth thinking process going on (and some interestingly unique metaphors) as well as some fears like rejection, indecision (or doubt) and others keeping you from utilizing this process to it's fullest advantage.

Perhaps it could help bring these two lower centers more in line with each other by considering a little analogy:

Imagine yourself carrying around your lower emotional center as this beautiful, but undeveloped child, viewing the world from the same eyes as you do and at the same time. This child thinks in simple associations and evaluates according to whether something has a chance of harming it or benefiting it (according to a simple kind of judgment and also based on past harmful experiences).
Your lower intellectual center is the parent, guardian, caretaker, whatever and only has the power of reason, some qualities of thinking as you mentioned above, and some objectivity. Whenever you think, consider, remember, analyze, plan or whatever, the child is watching also.

Whenever you decide to post something and you have a clear-cut purpose for doing so (something specific you need some feedback for) and the child 'acts up', just try to acknowledge and accept it without identifying with it and make yourself post anyway. You may feel the physical effects of his fear, anxiety or whatever, but he doesn't have exclusive control of your body. You do, and the child needs to see you do it anyway so that the negative emotions diminish or completely evaporate. You may get to experience a sensation of 'bonding' or 'blending' with this child to some degree at some point. That's a nice reward for the self-discipline, I think.

 

[Psalehesost]

Sometimes indecision can masquerade as doubt, although the two words are often used as synonyms. Using my impressions of your posts as a guide, I would suggest that instead of 'doubt', the word your looking for is probably just indecision...defined in this context as "a lack of firmness of purpose." Since purpose plays a big role in deciding what and/or if to post, perhaps it would be more productive to consider 'purpose' so that you have a way of guageing the 'appropriateness' or usefulness of the feedback received.

Indecision is the better word, yes.

I have a good firmness of long-term purpose. But shorter-term purpose is flaky - often I simply do what I do in "work" - as well as the posting here - on the spur of a moment's insight, several such often
following. This is flimsy in that indecision can easily take over unless the original decision happens to be sufficiently firm.

I wonder, though, whether the 'knowing' part goes deeper than the intellectual center? I'm not certain how to make the case for this, yet 'knowingness' seems somehow, more related to our essence than to the intellectual center; or, perhaps this only applies before we fuse a singular I.

Keeping in mind the difference between "knowledge" and "understanding", I'd say this is the case, though the latter seems a better word for this.

To me, it [the emotional center] also seems to be a kind of 'container self' for all the values and beliefs related directly to one's experience of life...the experiences of feeling alive and one's relationship to those 'things' within oneself that enhance and support life as well as those things that diminish and threaten life. I'm not even sure if this description would make much sense to anyone but me.

In short, one's emotional "orientation" (or "orientations", given non-unity) and STS versus STO-leaning attitudes?

I'm thinking that what you are experiencing is really just the energy dissipation that can happen when the lower intellectual and lower emotional centers are working at cross-purposes.
I mean, you've got this great in-depth thinking process going on (and some interestingly unique metaphors) as well as some fears like rejection, indecision (or doubt) and others keeping you from utilizing this process to it's fullest advantage.

Perhaps it could help bring these two lower centers more in line with each other by considering a little analogy:

Imagine yourself carrying around your lower emotional center as this beautiful, but undeveloped child, viewing the world from the same eyes as you do and at the same time. This child thinks in simple associations and evaluates according to whether something has a chance of harming it or benefiting it (according to a simple kind of judgment and also based on past harmful experiences).
Your lower intellectual center is the parent, guardian, caretaker, whatever and only has the power of reason, some qualities of thinking as you mentioned above, and some objectivity. Whenever you think, consider, remember, analyze, plan or whatever, the child is watching also.

Whenever you decide to post something and you have a clear-cut purpose for doing so (something specific you need some feedback for) and the child 'acts up', just try to acknowledge and accept it without identifying with it and make yourself post anyway. You may feel the physical effects of his fear, anxiety or whatever, but he doesn't have exclusive control of your body. You do, and the child needs to see you do it anyway so that the negative emotions diminish or completely evaporate. You may get to experience a sensation of 'bonding' or 'blending' with this child to some degree at some point. That's a nice reward for the self-discipline, I think.

That (bolded part) seems to be the big picture, yes - in the thinking in the previous post, I went into a detail (without thinking more of the whole at the time) that I happened to deal with at the moment, and tried to abstract something general from it, that seemed to fit a pattern of what others also often express here.

This (the quoted at large) could turn out helpful; also, thinking of it, I realized that there is an area with even greater potential for such "conscious suffering" than posting here, namely in putting more effort into my present ordinary-life studies. (not in the context of school mentioned in the first post, though that being something from earlier years that also has left me with lethargy-inducing emotional programming that sets in when I try to do more than the minimum of what is felt I "have to" to get ahead)

Also, there is part of the emotional center - a small part - that seems to be in excellent touch with the thinking center. A larger part is often more or less inert but sometimes gets excited (causing drifting in thought), alternatively reacts negatively in an immature way and in opposition to my understanding. A yet larger part seems to be very sound asleep.