Problems with a student

[aragorn]

Even though I haven't been that active on the forum lately, I'm hoping that someone could give me some mirroring.

The thing is, I have a very stubborn and forever-questioning student with whom I've been having difficulties from the start. Before today we have had a couple of piano lessons, and it became quite clear that she didn't trust my knowledge about the subject-she knew better. I think it's okay and even to some degree desirable that students question things, but this one doesn't even let me finish my sentence before "debunking".

I wouldn't otherwise bring this up, but today happened something strange and I would like to understand what really happened-was I doing something wrong or was I manipulated.

Today we had our last lessons with this student. We had agreed to spend the hour by going through breathing exercises and support issues concerning singing. Now, this student has studied voice to some degree and has some singing students of her own, so she knows how to sig pretty good.

The session started quite nicely, we exchanged views about singing technique etc. But little by little she questioned my views more and more, and I found myself again not bein able to finish my sentence. I kept adding things like:"Yes, that sounds interesting. Good that you brought that up." This went on for a while until suddenly she said "Since you're such an expert on breathing, let me feel with my hands how you support the voice" And before I knew it, she had put her hands on my waist and asked me to do the support thing. The strange thing was, that my mind was suddenly completely in panic-my self confidence completely gone. She commented saying tha I was doing it wrong. For a minute or so, she was the teacher and I felt like the helpless student!

This ended in me singing a bit if opera, quite loudly, saying that "Things depend on style, with opera I need my support in this way!" After some minutes I gained my confidence, but the end of the lesson was just horrible: I trying to present her different excersices, she debunking them. When our time was out, I thanked her for the interesting talk and wished her luck, since it was our last lesson.

Afterwards I felt completely drained. Part of me regretted that I hadn't thrown her out, because she was being an impossible pupil. On the other hand I was pleased that I hadn't got angry with her, raising my voice etc. What concerns me the most, is how with this little sudden "attack" with she placing her hands on my waist, I felt COMPLETELY helpless. Hopefully others can see more clearly the dynamics in play here, because right now I'm not sure what to think.

 

[Al Today]

Hi Aragorn,

Well, I am no expert, but how does placing hands on a torso/waist allow one to "feel how a voice is supported"? Wouldn't that be observed by the abdomen and chest motions/actions? Or even placing hands on the back... Not the torso/waist I would think. Seems to me she intended to cross an invisible line of external consideration to start some kind of 3D sensate situation by touch in order to see your reaction. To observe you, for whatever reason, I do not know. Methinks the physical contact was not initiated for the reason as stated. I think she had manipulation on her mind and took you completely by surprise. You mention that prior lesson engagements have been difficult for you. One question I have is did she ever really want to learn anything or was she merely enjoying your stress? We all learn by experience, and this was new to you. All I can think is that she should have been questioned as to why she touched you there...

 

[mkrnhr]

It looks like an obvious feeding indeed. What is remarkable is the incapacitating power such individuals may have. The thing is to learn how to say no (and acting accordingly) when it is appropriate IMHO.

 

[Finduilas495]

My first thought was she shouldn't have touched you without your permission. This gives the impression there was some sort of violation going on, so that probably would explain why you felt drained after the encounter. It's good you didn't give her more of your energy by engaging in the drama she tried to stage IMO. And I don't think it's got anything to do with your expertise, nobody would have been good enough for her. So I'd say your impulse to throw her out was spot on, you have the right to cancel your business relationship with someone who doesn't want to learn, since you're selling music classes, and not your energy to be fed on, OSIT.

Edit: Grammar

 

[aragorn]

Thanks Al for your reply, I think you've got a point. I would like to add that prior to placing her hands on my waist she DID ask if it was okay. But since the question caught me by surprise I couldn't think clearly, and I said something like "Uhhuh..." I just couldn't come up with a reason why she would not be allowed to do that, it was like she had slowly jellyfied my brain from the start.

Now, it isn't uncommon for a teacher to place the hands on eg the pupils back, but I very seldom do this because most of the time I can sense that it would be too upsetting. In this case we were talking about the transversus abdominis muscle, which is located on the sides. So in that sense the location was "logical".

But as you say, I can't help thinking that she is some sort of predator who is enjoying making others uncomfortable. We've had like 6 lessons in total, and on every occasion she has made me feel uncomfortable-a tightening feeling in the stomach. But it could also be, that I'm still hypersensitive to any kind of criticism, and when the subject is music and singing, I'm deeply affected. I've had some very difficult students earlier, but I've always been able to handle them easily-with firmness and understanding. But this was somethig completely different, it was like she was picking my brain or something.

Maybe I shouldnt be surprised, but somehow I feel disappointed that I obviously can be manipulated so easily...despite the knowledge of this kind of persons, psychopaths and all that.

 

[EmeraldHope]

Aragorn,


It sounds like to me she sensed your insecurities and played the dominance game with you. These types will typically cross the first socially acceptable line, and, if allowed, go a little further, and then, if that is allowed, a little further. If you give them an inch they take a mile. While I do understand external consideration was your aim, boundary setting seems to be needed as well. In other words, stating clearly that while you appreciate the questions, you must insist on being allowed to finish your sentences, etc. Since you are the teacher, you should establish firm boundaries as is done here in the forum, for example, as the relationship is not social.


I also cannot help but to ask if perhaps, on any level at all, conscious or not, that there was any type of physical attraction that you had towards her that could have been picked up by persons that are good at picking up on that type of thing? If so, that would be more of a reason to touch you, in a very reasonably presented way of course. In the dominance game, your response was the one sought.
And as it was the last lesson, she had every reason to prove her point before she left, to see what, if anything , that you would do.

 

[paralleloscope]

Hi Aragorn,

It may be common to touch the sides in singing lessons but she must have had an (unconscious) knowing how you were not prepared and utilized this usually ticklish, sensitive and intimate spot for her violating ends. In another way she probably had intent to deflate your authority even more than the verbal dissent she already continually performed, clearly predation, imo.

My first thought was that you were running a "nice" program and with it was blinded to her rebelious scheme, being stunned and discharged both by her aggressive nature and how this posture let's invasion happen. Perhaps I'm wrong. Another related idea fwiw, is that this may be about a blind spot to do with method of teaching? in a "life showing you your reflection" kind of way.

Could aspects of this shock be utilizable for recapitulation into issues of boundaries and helplessness? I feel your reaction and probably would have been equally stunned by this violation, it speaks to some of my early imprints with intimacy and boundary numbness. Perhaps you could include this feeeling with some EE and shake it out ala "Unspoken voice".

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Aragorn]This went on for a while until suddenly she said "Since you're such an expert on breathing, let me feel with my hands how you support the voice"[/quote]

It appears she was assessing the lateral expansion of your thorax when you sang. Stressing this is not uncommon among voice teachers.

From your quote of her it seems that she felt herself to be the expert and was challenging you, and she may have had a thing for you as well.

 

[Gertrudes]

Hi Aragorn,

I also agree with the others. I do wonder why she decided to keep the classes since she seemed to feel superior to your knowledge..maybe that was actually the point.

I completely understand how one can feel frozen by being gradually led to an unexpected outcome, however, having said that, I think that the lesson here would be to acknowledge what exactly enabled for this outcome, in other words, what was your blind spot. She crossed teacher/pupil barriers, and it would be important to understand what allowed for that barrier to be violated.

One thing that you could have perhaps said when she asked whether she could place your hands around your waist, was that this wasn't about you, but the lesson was about her. In any case, the setting was already prepared for a possible brain fog to have settled so that you couldn't really see the situation clearly.

A posibility is that perhaps your own sensitivity to criticism was perceived by her, and she abused it. When there is such sensitivity, on a subconscious level we may tend to pursue perfection, and people around us will generally pick up on that, although they will probably not be fully aware of the dynamic at pay. That internal dynamic may take the shape of someone that is trying to be flawless or come across an expert (she mentioned expert as well), to cover up an insecurity that is perceived by the person we're interacting with.
I don't know if the above really applies to you and the situation you described Aragorn, I'm just throwing it out for further pondering.

 

[Al Today]

[...]
The thing is to learn how to say no (and acting accordingly) when it is appropriate IMHO.

Yes, I agree but before one blurts out the "no" word, methinks one should ask "why". This gives an opportunity to regain thought composure and may provide some insight into the situation.

 

[ana]

[...]
The thing is to learn how to say no (and acting accordingly) when it is appropriate IMHO.

Yes, I agree but before one blurts out the "no" word, methinks one should ask "why". This gives an opportunity to regain thought composure and may provide some insight into the situation.

Taking into account the description Aragorn gives of her I do not think this would work, the Why's could be extended indefinitely ...

As others have said, I think He need's to be setting clear boundaries with her.

If He goes to all her requests for fear of appearing intransigent He may end being and easy prey since She seems pretty inconsiderate and controller.

The key is not be afraid of loosing your image of caring, flexible and open minded teacher, since it is not incompatible with being firm and able to encourage, achieve and maintain standards of conduct, osit.

 

[aragorn]

Thanks guys for taking the time answering. :)

Your thoughts gave me more understanding, and I can see that here's a great opportunity for me to learn a lot. It's clear to me now, that the whole thing was doomed right from the start. The thing is, that our department of music didactics (for primary school teacher students) is heavily understaffed (i.e. not enough money) and every fall there are ca 100 new students starting. Everyone of them has 18x30min of mandatory individual lessons (piano, singing & guitar-they can choose to some degree) with the three of us teachers. We try to put the most experienced piano players with the "real" piano teacher, but sometimes I'm forced to take some of them too.

I enjoy teaching the piano (free accompaniment), but since that isn't my principal instrument I feel somewhat insecure with the more experienced students. As was the case with this girl. On the first lesson, when we were to decide how we want to divide the lessons between piano and singing, she declared that "She already knows how to sing, she doesn't need any of that". Okie dokie...so we decided to start with the piano.

As you can guess I kind of blew it from the start. She quickly found out that I wasn't an expert at piano playing, and started to do her thing. And the rest you know. As I've always suspected, it isn't a good thing if you as a teacher are only a little bit ahead of the pupil what comes to skills and knowledge. In some cases it works, and some pupils feel more relaxed with someone "on their own level". But with more demanding and ambitious (nothing wrong with that) types, it is clearly a problem. And when this type of manipulator comes along, well, you're in a very difficult situation.

I foolishly tried to mend the situation by suggesting that on this last session we'd go through some of the ideas I had about singing and breathing. But the game was lost already I guess. I suspect also, that there was some egotism by my part in suggesting this - look here, let me show you MY expertice. I had it coming...

I will meet this student after Christmas at group lectures. I'd better get my act together before this, since I suspect that she will give me a hard time.

 

[mada85]

The thing is, I have a very stubborn and forever-questioning student with whom I've been having difficulties from the start.

It sounds like this student used stubbornness and questioning as a means to feed and gain power over you. Constant questioning and interruptions will certainly keep a person off-balance. That seems to have been her main tactic. But it also sounds like you have a 'make-nice' program that dictated most of your actions. The funny thing is that these kind of situations seem to always arise just when we least expect them and so are off guard, possibly a bit complacent.

The strange thing was, that my mind was suddenly completely in panic-my self confidence completely gone. She commented saying tha I was doing it wrong. For a minute or so, she was the teacher and I felt like the helpless student!

I think you felt helpless because she had manipulated you into a reversal of your ordinary roles, therefore your 'power base' (if I may call it that) was completely undermined and the final twist was when she placed her hands on your waist. At that moment she assumed, and was given (by your make-nice program) control of the situation. It looks to me like she was continually testing you to find out how far she could go, and perhaps because it was your last session together, she decided to go as far as she could.

Afterwards I felt completely drained.

I understand that feeling and it's quite uncomfortable; one often ends up questioning oneself about how one could be taken advantage of and fed from so easily. Reading through your post I think that your 'make-nice' program laid you open to her feeding activity. Having that program myself I understand that it can be very difficult to draw the line, especially when the infractions of one's personal space and energy start off in a small way and increase incrementally.

It might have been better if you could, after observing her behaviour in the very first lesson, have asked her if she had really come to you to learn from you, or had she come to show off. Your lessons are not a debating class.

I think it's okay and even to some degree desirable that students question things,

I certainly agree with this, Aragorn, and I get the impression that the great majority, if not all, of your students behave 'normally'. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately from the point of view of lessons, this one turned out to be rather different.

You might want to consider making plain some boundaries to your students – laying down some ground rules – as a way of protecting yourself.

I had a similar experience at work with a colleague last year, which I wrote about here. You may also find this post on 'sappers' interesting.

 

[Galaxia2002]

I foolishly tried to mend the situation by suggesting that on this last session we'd go through some of the ideas I had about singing and breathing. But the game was lost already I guess. I suspect also, that there was some egotism by my part in suggesting this - look here, let me show you MY expertice. I had it coming...

There is no problem for me with that if she was another type of person and in another context ( since you are being paid for transmite her your knowledge, if that is what you are really trying to give), but likely she doesn't care because she think she knows everything. I suggest you don't miss time with her.
In another hand I believe your attitude was much passive, with students like her is not wise to be so condescending.

It might have been better if you could, after observing her behaviour in the very first lesson, have asked her if she had really come to you to learn from you, or had she come to show off. Your lessons are not a debating class.

I agree.

 

[Simon]

I would like to add that prior to placing her hands on my waist she DID ask if it was okay. But since the question caught me by surprise I couldn't think clearly, and I said something like "Uhhuh..." I just couldn't come up with a reason why she would not be allowed to do that, it was like she had slowly jellyfied my brain from the start.

Hello Aragorn

I do not understand WHY you should gave her ANY reason not to touch you. IMO you do not have any obligation to explain your self before people with whom you're in non-personal relationship. You could simply said that you do not wish to be touched - even if she asked you "why", you could stated directly, that you do not have to explain your self before her. She could either accept your condition and go on with the lesson or not and leave. In both cases you would clearly set your boundaries.

But it also sounds like you have a 'make-nice' program that dictated most of your actions.

I would propose to change "make-nice program" to "not being rude" one.
In first case you spend your energy to achieve/maintain certain level of relation. In second case your energy is focused on processing the relation bit by bit.
IMO "make-nice program" drains your energy and suppress your flexibility. Second one allows you to adapt your energy flow to the specific situation/person.

I had similar situation at the beginning of this week. I went on the three-days sellers training and there were girl who tried to manipulate the whole training group. I've noticed it from the very beginning and I've settled neutral relation with her. I was "friendly" but not acquiescent. I behave/speak only what/when I felt I want to and NOTHING more. There were couple of attempts from her side to force my interest in her/'inert flight' towards her, but I kept myself aware and I did not permitted myself being drawn into her "play". After all above mentioned attempts and no reaction from my side she was observing me VERY closely to determine the reason why there was no desired by her reaction. My neutral attitude was [due to my observation] almost unbearable for her. At some point she started to gain over "against me" some most manipulated by her persons, but unfortunately for her I've settled good relations with most of the group and there was only one person who back her up in negative attitude towards me. That only ensured me in my observations since there was absolutely no negative reactions/behavior from my side towards her.
In short - her manipulation was simply "give - take away" strategy to settled her self in a center and to distribute/drain energy from whole group. Even the organizers of the training were in her grasp of energy control and it was really a pity view.
Neutral attitude for me is a way of balancing my self in relation with energy draining persons. If only consistently maintained - it do not permit others to drain you and stops your self from distributing your own energy in chaotic/incomprehensible way [which may happen when you're taken by surprise].