Psychopaths and embarrassment

[Laura]

Like you, I've noted this apparent phenomenon myself. It exercised me to no end because what I observed was anger being displayed when the individual was "called out" in a more or less public way. What I finally realized about it was that it wasn't shame, it was anger because the individual was in the process of creating a "persona," an "ambience" for the sake of stalking prey and I had spoiled it. It was purely and simply anger at me and the person pretended that it was "shame" or that I was "embarrassing" them.

Yes, I see what you mean. It is anger that their perfect image of themselves is not being reflected in the circumstances around them.

Thanks for putting it better than I did. That's it exactly.

 

[nature]

This one, not only is not embarassed, but he is boasting
Read this morning on a french journal: -http://www.20minutes.fr/monde/2026707-20170308-allemagne-tue-enfant-vante-internet

Alertés par des témoins qui avaient vu une vidéo postée sur le Darknet, partie obscure d’internet cryptée et non référencée, dans laquelle un homme se vantait d’avoir poignardé à mort un enfant, les enquêteurs allemands ont finalement trouvé le corps du garçon de 9 ans dans la cave du suspect à Herne (ouest), vers 19H30 lundi.

La police a immédiatement déclenché une chasse à l’homme, à l’aide d’hélicoptères et de chiens policiers, avant de diffuser mardi matin un avis de recherche visant Marcel Hesse, un jeune homme de 19 ans, maigre aux cheveux blonds coupés à ras.
Sans emploi, le suspect a « très peu de relations sociales », porte probablement « des vêtements de camouflage » et « peut réagir violemment », précise l’avis de recherche.
Un possible deuxième meutre

La police n’exclut pas que le suspect ait commis un deuxième meurtre, dont la victime serait cette fois-ci une femme. En effet, Mardi soir, la police de Bochum (ouest) a annoncé que, dans une conversation sur le Net, le jeune homme affirmait « se battre contre une bête de 120 kg ». « Elle a montré plus de résistance que l’enfant », a-t-il ajouté, selon la police qui n’exclut pas que ce message soit un faux. « Mais vu le danger, il est nécessaire de prendre au sérieux » ce message, a-t-elle écrit dans un communiqué.
« La victime et le possible meurtrier vivaient côte à côte », a dit à l’AFP un porte-parole de la police, précisant n’avoir « personne à interroger » sur le mobile du crime.

Google translation:
Alerted by witnesses who had seen a video posted on the Darknet, an obscure, encrypted and unreferenced internet part in which a man boasted of stabbing a child to death, German investigators eventually found the boy's body 9 years in the suspect's cellar in Herne (west), around 7.30 pm on Monday.

The police immediately launched a manhunt, using helicopters and police dogs, before broadcasting on Tuesday morning a notice of search for Marcel Hesse, a young 19-year-old lean man with blond hair cut at Ras.
Without a job, the suspect has "very little social relations", probably wears "camouflage clothes" and "can react violently," says the research notice.
A possible second murder

The police did not exclude the suspect from committing a second murder, the victim of which was a woman. Indeed, Tuesday evening, police in Bochum (west) announced that in a conversation on the Net, the young man said "fighting a beast of 120 kg". "She showed more resistance than the child," he added, according to police who do not rule out that the message is a forgery. "But given the danger, it is necessary to take this message seriously," she wrote in a statement.
"The victim and the possible murderer lived side by side," a police spokesman told AFP, saying he had "no one to question" on the motive of the crime.

 

[SilverBlack]

Hi and good question,

My stepfather is a psychopath and there is one incident that comes to mind where he did appear to be embarrassed which then manifested into an angry rage.

We were on holiday in Mooloolooba, QLD Australia around 1995. There was myself, my two half sisters, my Mum and my Stepfather, five of us. One particular day we had planned to try golfing at the local golf course where holiday makers could hire clubs and just go out for a bit of fun and hit a few balls around the course. We arrived and hired our equipment and headed out to the first hole. Neither Mum nor myself had ever played golf, my stepfather had played a little I think and Mum and I went first and had a lot of fun swiping at the golf balls and missing them and swinging too low and digging holes in the turf and chopping up the grass, we were both laughing our heads off at how difficult it actually was to hit the ball!

What we hadn't noticed straight away was that my step father was getting a little stressed out and sweaty looking because while we were playing the hole for probably a bit too long, some very serious looking golfers with their own buggys and stuff were standing close by waiting for us to move on to the next hole. He really worked himself into a state while Mum and I fumbled around and before we knew it he was getting nasty about the time we were taking and was overly concerned that the pro golfers were watching and waiting, so we started violently swinging at the ball trying to speed things up but it was no fun now. The men waiting didn't seem worried about the wait but my step father worked himself into a lather and got so embarrassed, his face and ears went red like a beetroot and he was quite obviously embarrassed by us and then he became abusive and started yelling that we had to hurry up we were taking too long and people were lining up behind us. At that point we didn't want to play golf anymore and handed out gear back in silently getting into the car where a violet argument ensued and needless to say Mum and I have never wanted to play golf again!

 

[Peam]

Hi and good question,

My stepfather is a psychopath and there is one incident that comes to mind where he did appear to be embarrassed which then manifested into an angry rage.

We were on holiday in Mooloolooba, QLD Australia around 1995. There was myself, my two half sisters, my Mum and my Stepfather, five of us. One particular day we had planned to try golfing at the local golf course where holiday makers could hire clubs and just go out for a bit of fun and hit a few balls around the course. We arrived and hired our equipment and headed out to the first hole. Neither Mum nor myself had ever played golf, my stepfather had played a little I think and Mum and I went first and had a lot of fun swiping at the golf balls and missing them and swinging too low and digging holes in the turf and chopping up the grass, we were both laughing our heads off at how difficult it actually was to hit the ball!

What we hadn't noticed straight away was that my step father was getting a little stressed out and sweaty looking because while we were playing the hole for probably a bit too long, some very serious looking golfers with their own buggys and stuff were standing close by waiting for us to move on to the next hole. He really worked himself into a state while Mum and I fumbled around and before we knew it he was getting nasty about the time we were taking and was overly concerned that the pro golfers were watching and waiting, so we started violently swinging at the ball trying to speed things up but it was no fun now. The men waiting didn't seem worried about the wait but my step father worked himself into a lather and got so embarrassed, his face and ears went red like a beetroot and he was quite obviously embarrassed by us and then he became abusive and started yelling that we had to hurry up we were taking too long and people were lining up behind us. At that point we didn't want to play golf anymore and handed out gear back in silently getting into the car where a violet argument ensued and needless to say Mum and I have never wanted to play golf again!

From your description of what happened Silverblack I would think you're stepfather is not a psychopath, he seems to have the ability to put himself in another persons position and feel what they are feeling. That is not a trait of a psychopath.

You on the other hand at what, 24 years of age at the time, thought it was funny to fall about laughing and chopping up a golf course all the while being watched by groups of possibly serious golfers waiting for you to hit a ball properly. It's not rocket science ballistics even if you've never done it.

I would think any normal person seeing them waiting would feel the same as your stepdad, I know I would.

However, do you have any other stories to describe his psychopathy?

 

[taratai]

What we hadn't noticed straight away was that my step father was getting a little stressed out and sweaty looking because while we were playing the hole for probably a bit too long, some very serious looking golfers with their own buggys and stuff were standing close by waiting for us to move on to the next hole. He really worked himself into a state while Mum and I fumbled around and before we knew it he was getting nasty about the time we were taking and was overly concerned that the pro golfers were watching and waiting, so we started violently swinging at the ball trying to speed things up but it was no fun now. The men waiting didn't seem worried about the wait but my step father worked himself into a lather and got so embarrassed, his face and ears went red like a beetroot and he was quite obviously embarrassed by us and then he became abusive and started yelling that we had to hurry up we were taking too long and people were lining up behind us. At that point we didn't want to play golf anymore and handed out gear back in silently getting into the car where a violet argument ensued and needless to say Mum and I have never wanted to play golf again!

That doesn't sound like a psychopath, but more like an OP that is afraid what others will think about him. Yes, him, not you. Doesn't matter that you're the ones making fools of yourself and laughing at it, and it doesn't matter if people gathered around are overtly critical of you, or patient. No, what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed.

I think that Freud's id, ego and superego perfectly show how an OP's mind functions:
* the id - the primitive, instinctual subconsciousness; the animal
* the ego - the personality that tries to guide the id according to what is "realistic" and "reasonable"; the
* the superego - society's influence and pressure on the individual that molds the ego; the authority
But there's absolutely nothing coming from inside. There's an animal that is guided and molded by external factors, but nothing more. There is no "soul" for Freud, just mechanical action-reaction.

OPs are the rational ego keeping the animalistic subconsciousness in check according to the rules of the society (which you broke by being a bad player - hey, don't look at me, that's how it works :P ). Psychopaths are what happens when the id and ego lose sight of the superego that would keep them in check. Psychopath is an OP that's unable to feel the society's pressure, shame or humiliation, thus, is now able to do whatever the animal inside wants and whatever the mind rationalizes as "good".

This is also why OPs without an authority go insane and start acting like full-blown psychos - there is no superego they can listen to!

 

[Approaching Infinity]

My stepfather is a psychopath and there is one incident that comes to mind where he did appear to be embarrassed which then manifested into an angry rage.

Was your stepfather diagnosed? Psychopathy is a very specific thing. Not all "mean", "bad" people, or "jerks", are psychopaths. It may feel like it when we interact with them. Nothing says "evil SOB" like calling someone a psychopath. But unless you're actually dealing with a textbook psychopath, complete with his whole history demonstrating his psychopathic traits, it can actually be quite difficult to tell. So I'd second Peam's question. If he is a psychopath, it would be good to hear all the signs that suggest that.

 

[Peam]

That doesn't sound like a psychopath, but more like an OP that is afraid what others will think about him. Yes, him, not you. Doesn't matter that you're the ones making fools of yourself and laughing at it, and it doesn't matter if people gathered around are overtly critical of you, or patient. No, what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed.

I've often wondered whether I am an op or not, as probably most people here have done, and once again I find myself wondering because I resonate with what Silverblack's stepfather was feeling, and you say he's more like an op. In the interest of learning, what would you say a souled person's action or reaction be in this case?

 

[Laura]

That doesn't sound like a psychopath, but more like an OP that is afraid what others will think about him. Yes, him, not you. Doesn't matter that you're the ones making fools of yourself and laughing at it, and it doesn't matter if people gathered around are overtly critical of you, or patient. No, what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed.

I've often wondered whether I am an op or not, as probably most people here have done, and once again I find myself wondering because I resonate with what Silverblack's stepfather was feeling, and you say he's more like an op. In the interest of learning, what would you say a souled person's action or reaction be in this case?

Well, on the other hand, I considered Silverblack's father to be exhibiting some External Considering and Silverblack and his mother to be acting like 9 yr old kids.

 

[Nienna]

That doesn't sound like a psychopath, but more like an OP that is afraid what others will think about him. Yes, him, not you. Doesn't matter that you're the ones making fools of yourself and laughing at it, and it doesn't matter if people gathered around are overtly critical of you, or patient. No, what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed.

I've often wondered whether I am an op or not, as probably most people here have done, and once again I find myself wondering because I resonate with what Silverblack's stepfather was feeling, and you say he's more like an op. In the interest of learning, what would you say a souled person's action or reaction be in this case?

I find it interesting that so many people can spot OPs so easily. The Cs say it is very difficult and that we should be aware that some people who we think might be OPs are really souled individuals who have been badly damaged.

I think that what you describe, taratai, when you say, "what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed." can also be described as being externally considerate (as Laura stated in the previous post). Are you aware of the terms "external consideration" and "internal consideration"? If not, you can read about them here.

 

[Ant22]

That doesn't sound like a psychopath, but more like an OP that is afraid what others will think about him. Yes, him, not you. Doesn't matter that you're the ones making fools of yourself and laughing at it, and it doesn't matter if people gathered around are overtly critical of you, or patient. No, what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed.

I've often wondered whether I am an op or not, as probably most people here have done, and once again I find myself wondering because I resonate with what Silverblack's stepfather was feeling, and you say he's more like an op. In the interest of learning, what would you say a souled person's action or reaction be in this case?

I find it interesting that so many people can spot OPs so easily. The Cs say it is very difficult and that we should be aware that some people who we think might be OPs are really souled individuals who have been badly damaged. (...)

Peam, as Nienna said, "some people who we think might be OPs are in fact souled individuals who have been badly damaged". In this specific case I guess it's quite safe to say that a souled individual would have acted exactly the same way.

I too can understand the father's embarrassment although I would have acted on that feeling in an entirely different manner.

As Laura pointed out, the stepfather actually showed External Consideration, unlike SilverBlack and the rest of the family. External Consideration requires some level of understanding of other people's feelings and having the ability to put themselves in their shoes. To me it looks like the stepfather reacted the way he did because he himself would have been angry if he was in the other golfers' place. Maybe he projected his own emotions onto them? Well, this makes him a guy with anger management issues and it's not like only souled individuals suffer from them. If this was the case, I don't think the C's would say that identifying OPs requires long and careful observation.

 

[Peam]

I too can understand the father's embarrassment although I would have acted on that feeling in an entirely different manner.

Well to be fair we only have Silverblack's version of what went on, and saying his stepfather's face and ears went red like a beetroot etc. and what went on in the car could have been over stating the fact due to other factors that we don't know about such as the stepson/stepfather prior relationship and interactions going back years, or something like that. Such relationships like stepfather/stepson/stepdaughter /stepmother can be fraught with difficulties going way back, and unless Silverblack is more forthcoming and willing to open up so he can be helped in some way we just don't know.

To me it looks like the stepfather reacted the way he did because he himself would have been angry if he was in the other golfers' place. Maybe he projected his own emotions onto them? Well, this makes him a guy with anger management issues and it's not like only souled individuals suffer from them.

Unless one has learned and applied a lot about the work anger management issues can flair up in an instant out of nowhere.

 

[Carl]

If this has been discussed before, I apologise in advance.

Have been thinking on psychopathy, and have concluded that it would be impossible to embarrass one. Imagine a psychopath getting nervous, in front of a crowd. There could be a fear of being found out, but could a fear (or paranoia) of public speaking exist in the psychopathic psychology? Is it possible for a psycho to blush??
Sorry if this is not clear, am still working out exactly what I mean and will do some research on the biology of blushing.

Any errors in my thinking?

That's always been my 'test' - if I ever see someone blush or get nervous, fidgety and uncomfortable in situations, they are probably not a psychopath. Some behaviour could be faked but blushing seems like a particularly hard one to fake.

 

[Michael B-C]

Like you, I've noted this apparent phenomenon myself. It exercised me to no end because what I observed was anger being displayed when the individual was "called out" in a more or less public way. What I finally realized about it was that it wasn't shame, it was anger because the individual was in the process of creating a "persona," an "ambience" for the sake of stalking prey and I had spoiled it. It was purely and simply anger at me and the person pretended that it was "shame" or that I was "embarrassing" them.

What Laura said above brought to mind an incident that I’ve posted about elsewhere but this thread puts it into sharper relief.

To recap, I worked off and on for a figure who ran a significant theatre who after many years of observation and direct experience I concluded was/is most likely a psychopath. Symptoms were many and much remarked on as he wielded immense power and influence over a whole industry for a number of decades – ruthless, cold, self obsessed to the nth degree (it was always all about him), sexually predatory and abusive, everything all about power, predictable and unpredictable in equal measure, absolutely zero sense of loyalty or fair play, showed boredom in an instant, dictatorial, renowned for a kind of chilling magnetism combined with a repulsive otherness that led everyone ‘normal’ to be perpetually fascinated by him (‘he’s such a monster isn’t he but so, so fascinating’, being the basic line) etc. So many negative, obviously destructive traits yet somehow in the goldfish bowl of his sector he maintained his position for years, essentially undiscovered or challenged. So a very high functioning individual despite the above (mainly i think because he had risen to the top his pile and his identity was entirely bound up in maintaining this victorious reality).

Anyhow, one day, towards the end of our dysfunctional working relationship I delivered an immensely successful show for ‘him’ (it was always about him) that earned the theatre, and - through his self-regulated management of the finances - himself a considerable financial bonanza. For the first time in the 14 odd years we’d worked together, he asked me out to lunch by way of an apparent thank you (it was breadcrumbs stuff at his least important and cheapest haunt – I immediately noted that). As always there was a tension around our being alone together… or rather no doubt tension on my side, (for although I had by then learned certain rules on how to be around him I knew it would be costly to ever let my guard down), whilst on his part a barely concealed indifference… or perhaps that watchfulness that brought with it the threat of conflict and casual dismissal.

Anyhow I felt on relatively safe ground and accepted his fake bon ami. As always he did 90% of the talking, mostly about how he had known for sure the work would succeed once he had engineered the writer and I to work together, etc etc. So I dared a little cut and thrust with him which was just about fine until I rashly suggested that the real reason the show had been such a success was because it was about genuine people sharing genuine feelings of care and love for each other and how by doing so they miraculously won through in the end – and the audience had responded in kind. The light hearted tone immediately vanished. He lent forward, finger jabbing mechanically, and without a trace of irony, in the absolutist tone of a great teacher, he declared, ‘You know what your real problem is don’t you? You have an empathy issue.” Well all I could do was laugh – and laugh quite freely. For once I couldn't help myself. It seemed such an absurd and pointed response and I was, foolishly, over sure of my ground as I retorted by saying that ‘after 30 years in the business if he didn’t know that was what the core of it was all about, then I couldn’t really help him’. The funny thing was his reaction to my laughter; I remember as I laughed his face contorting almost in a spasm, his eyes narrowing his body language shutting down. At the time I thought I’d struck home, embarrassed, even shamed him. But in retrospect, and reading this thread, I now realize it was nothing of the kind. There was no embarrassment or hint of shame, there was merely anger… anger that his ‘game’ of pretend had been questioned, that his control on reality had been confronted.

He quickly ended the meal and we parted with hardly another word shared. Despite the success of the show I didn’t get another call to work for him for nearly three years – the longest it had ever been and since he knew I depended on his largess for my professional and personal upkeep. He gave me a clear message; the power was all his and he exercised it, only turning back to me when it finally suited him. I won’t go into what happened next when he played out his revenge but looking back it was as if he saved up all that anger, got me where he wanted me, then set about pulling me apart bit by bit. Here endeth the lesson; it was only then that I really faced up to the likely nature of the white collar psychopathy he epitomized.

On a final note I remember years before directing a play for him by one of the world’s most famous living writers (he won the Nobel Prize for literature the week the show opened). This theatre manager and writer were inextricably linked and the show was part of a birthday festival for the great man. The play in question was complex, multi-layered and deliberately disguised to seem to be one thing when in fact it was really another; an astonishingly rewarding piece of writing in truth. On day one of rehearsals the ‘boss’ came up to me and said ‘now remember this play is meaningless; it’s just (the writer) messing around, doodling and playing with words. Don’t take it seriously it means nothing, nothing at all, so just make it funny. Do you hear me! Make it funny.’

I was still very naive at that stage and I was nonplussed. I knew the play was quite the opposite; it was deadly serious in intent. I’d previously talked privately in person with the writer and shared what I thought it was about and he had concurred. And here I was ordered to turn it into a throw away comedy. I didn’t of course; I was nearly fired as a result when he saw what I had done and but for the great man turning up and proclaiming it to be the best it had been realized, he would have. Remembering him express complete ignorance of the subtly of work that should have defined whether he was or wasn’t suitable to hold the office he lorded over; experiencing the psychotic malevolence when I delivered something else; watching him turn on a sixpence before my eyes when the great man endowed his personal benediction on the show, was at the time, bewildering but now makes total sense. Especially his absolute failure, under all his surface acumen and intellectual pride, to grasp complexity in language. It bored him. He couldn’t fathom it. It was beyond his mind.

For decades he held this position. Everyone knew he was a monster. When he was finally forced out last year (as he guard began to slip and his behavior become more and more overtly outrageous and destructive to the organisation) he was eulogized in the national press. Despite a regiment of victims, no one spoke out. I suspect if it had been his funeral they would all be there – in their 100s – marveling at his outlandish, larger than live exploits. There’s nothing stranger than Stockholm syndrome people.

 

[hesperides]

Quote from Mikchael BC

Symptoms were many and much remarked on as he wielded immense power and influence over a whole industry for a number of decades – ruthless, cold, self obsessed to the nth degree (it was always all about him), sexually predatory and abusive, everything all about power, predictable and unpredictable in equal measure, absolutely zero sense of loyalty or fair play, showed boredom in an instant, dictatorial, renowned for a kind of chilling magnetism combined with a repulsive otherness that led everyone ‘normal’ to be perpetually fascinated by him (‘he’s such a monster isn’t he but so, so fascinating’, being the basic line) etc. So many negative, obviously destructive traits yet somehow in the goldfish bowl of his sector he maintained his position for years, essentially undiscovered or challenged. So a very high functioning individual despite the above (mainly i think because he had risen to the top his pile and his identity was entirely bound up in maintaining this victorious reality).

I appreciate very much your thoughtful description of your psychpathic boss, and I can only imagine what you must have endured through all these years.

From my own experience with a couple of bosses, I think generally it takes years before one is able to laugh at their skewed ways of reversing or altering reality, even when you know on the first spot something doesn´t cling right.

Thinking now in retrospect, I see the thing that mostly was disturbing me while being directly in touch with these people was their apparently incredible self-confidence that was assaulting my own lack of self trust. Thereby, I´ve found myself many times truly embarrassed and hurt. Later, once I was able to put a name on their behaviour, like arrogance, poor nuances in their worldview, stabbing their own staff where it hurts the most to avoid responding what they were asked for, I started to understand I had a lot of long overdue homework before I could stand for myself up in their presence. And today, I don´t doubt for a moment they can be our masters or our ruin depending on our particular set of values and how deep these are planted in our being.

 

[taratai]

I've often wondered whether I am an op or not, as probably most people here have done, and once again I find myself wondering because I resonate with what Silverblack's stepfather was feeling, and you say he's more like an op. In the interest of learning, what would you say a souled person's action or reaction be in this case?

I wrote "more like", but i never mentioned that he definitely is. The context was that he's a psychopath. He's not, and that is all my post was meant to say.

And even if his father is indeed is an OP, resonating with his actions means nothing.
First, OPs have a personality too, and you're resonating with a personality trait, not necessarily with the whole. Second, most people are wounded emotionally in one way or another, so only because an OP gets angry in certain way doesn't mean everyone who gets angry in the same way is an OP (that's like saying: Hitler was breathing = everyone who's breathing is a nazi).

I think that what you describe, taratai, when you say, "what matters for the OP is the perceived pressure of the society, and failing to adhere to it means being shamed." can also be described as being externally considerate (as Laura stated in the previous post). Are you aware of the terms "external consideration" and "internal consideration"? If not, you can read about them here.

The difficulty here is that "external consideration" and "societal pressure" might look exactly same from outside. And without knowing the person, i cannot say whether he's doing it because he's afraid of what others would say of him, or because he's feeling shame for his oblivious family.