question about 4D

[nate]

I was wondering when people go into 4D, what would there be to do? can you still become like say a wizard or an alchemist? because i read that the C's said it will be much easier to make gold in 4D and cooking also. so yea i was just wondering.

 

[Vulcan59]

Hi Nathaniel,

I'll repeat what anart asked you sometime earlier; "Have you read the Wave Series?" :)

 

[nate]

Hi Nathaniel,

I'll repeat what anart asked you sometime earlier; "Have you read the Wave Series?" :)

yea im reading it. :) well i would guess you would be able to become a wizard.

 

[Bar Kochba]

4d will come when it comes if it comes. Me, I concentrate on this life right here right now.

 

[Nienna]

4d will come when it comes if it comes. Me, I concentrate on this life right here right now.

I agree, dreaming about what one can be in 4D is a distraction from the real Work that will get you to 4D in the first place.

Hopefully, reading the Wave Series, and reading it with an open mind, will help you to understand things as they pertain to 3D and 4D a little better.

 

[Gertrudes]

Hi Nathaniel,

I agree with the others.
For me, trying to understand 4D at this stage is somewhat equivalent to trying to lift 100kg of weight with one arm. For muscles to become this strong they need gradual training. Jumping to those 100kg weight with an unprepared physique would torn my muscles apart. In order for me to build up the strength, I need to work with my muscles as they are, in their present state, not by pushing them far beyond their current ability. And even after the training, perhaps in this life I will never be able to lift those 100kg with one arm, because my body is just not prepared for that. So in the end, I can only do so much with this present body.
Also, as I look closely into my body I can begin to understand what it needs for me to build up that kind of strength. Noticing where are the weaknesses, how to correct them, etc. But this is only possible if I look at what I have first, rather then what I dream it to be.

This is probably not the best comparison as an answer to your question about 4D, but something that came to my mind that I think also concurs with the natural process of life.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi Nathaniel,

Imagine a hamster wondering what it's like to be a human being. :)

 

[kenlee]

I was wondering when people go into 4D, what would there be to do?

Nathaniel, many of the answers to your questions will be found by reading The Wave and The Adventures Series which puts the ideas relating to higher densities within the proper context of real life experience. I think understanding it from this perspective makes the ideas less theoretical and more real and the ideas will become much more alive as you ponder them with your entire presence. Also, the big 5 psychology books as well as Ouspensky's book In Search Of The Miraculous listed here will help you a lot to make the connection between the theoretical and practical understandings of these ideas and how they might fit in and relate to your actual life experiences.

 

[iloveyoghurt]

Hi Nathaniel,

I'm up to Book 5 of the Wave series now and the series is for sure very interesting, sometimes thoroughly gripping. I got half through Secret History however and found it a more difficult read; it goes on a bit.

But yeah, I find myself pondering the same. Only last night I was wondering about insurance - what kind of plans would I make for the future, if I knew what was to come - will the "system" be in anyway similar? Every now and then I kinda stop and wonder about what I'm doing now, in my 3D world and assess its priority if I was in another density - for example, renovations on the house - an obvious 3D thing (I guess?) - will we still have houses? Also basic stuff like clothes - is it back to fig leaves - OMG - will we even have bodies??!

Unlike the others that have responded so far, at this stage of my personal development and awareness, I tend to be thinking it's okay to wonder and imagine about these things. After all, nothing would ever be discovered if we didn't first wonder - we'd just be like sheep (or hamsters), if we didn't use our imaginations in this density. Would be (even more) rather dull I would think. Even more than this, I suspect it is via the imagination and wondering that answers come to us via other realms (our "higher" selves, other densities, etc). Maybe the imagination is a remnant link to our missing DNA, the last bit of which we can still access vague knowledge from?

“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions." Albert Einstein

Just my thoughts.

 

[Nienna]

Unlike the others that have responded so far, at this stage of my personal development and awareness, I tend to be thinking it's okay to wonder and imagine about these things. After all, nothing would ever be discovered if we didn't first wonder - we'd just be like sheep (or hamsters), if we didn't use our imaginations in this density. Would be (even more) rather dull I would think. Even more than this, I suspect it is via the imagination and wondering that answers come to us via other realms (our "higher" selves, other densities, etc). Maybe the imagination is a remnant link to our missing DNA, the last bit of which we can still access vague knowledge from?

“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions." Albert Einstein

Just my thoughts.

From the Cassiopedia

http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Imagination_vs._Impression

Imagination vs. Impression

Imagination in modern culture is often seen as a wonderful virtue and bringer of limitless possibility. We see this in phrases like 'only your imagination limits what you can do with' [pick a gadget of your choice].

In 4th Way discourse, the word imagination is seen somewhat differently. Imagination is one of the principal features of man which keep him asleep. Specially negative imagination and identification with it is a detrimental mechanical habit. Negative imagination consists of reviewing by means of automatic habitual association all manner of possible or impossible calamities which might befall one. Knowing about the world's dangers is even necessary but habitually dwelling on them in lurid reveries of horrors is counter-productive. The key distinction here is between mental activity which leads to action and mental activity which alone seeks to generate more similar mental activity.

Positive reveries are not much better, they also represent subjectivity and tend to separate one from reality, i.e. from being awake.

We can of course ask 'what about creativity? Is this not predicated on imagination?'

This is a complex question. Most artistic expression, says Gurdjieff, is 'subjective art.' The artist expresses his inner subjective world and the art in question evokes essentially random responses in others, since the inner worlds of people are generally dissimilar and precise understanding between people is at best a game of chance. Such furthers sleep and further subjectivity.

There is a possibility of objective art but this is rare. Furthermore, the sleeping person may not have a way of distinguishing it from subjective art. Generally, objective art is based on knowledge of the workings of human emotions and cognition and is intended for carrying a conscious message, for producing certain definite impressions. Of course, receiving these impressions requires a certain preparation on behalf of the receiver. But if this readiness exists, objective art will be understood by the beholders in a compatible manner, according to the capacity of each.

We could say that subjective art is expression of self purely based on inner considering. Objective art has an element of external considering and deliberateness.

In the 4th Way sense we could say that imagination is simple mechanical recombination of existing contents. Creativity on the other hand is more akin to tapping into objective contents and giving them a conscious expression in whatever form. One may choose to express beauty of nature, study this, experience this, consider how to render it so that the experience can be reconstructed and then realize this as a work of art. This is much more conscious than mechanical associations which are referred to as imagination and overvalued in today's culture.

Impressions on the other hand are called the 'third being food' and are an absolute necessity for life. One can be without breathing for 2 minutes but one cannot be without impressions for any length of time. Of course the very fact of having a body provides a minimum feed of impressions.

The quality of impressions assimilated by one may vary greatly. What the organism produces with its psychophysical metabolism varies in function of the raw materials. The organism is so constructed that man cannot eat other things than what he does, nor can he breathe anything but air. The intake of impressions is not however as restricted.

For producing so-called 'higher hydrogens' the quality of the impressions, themselves also a hydrogen, is important. Self-remembering while assimilating impressions helps the air octave to develop past the first shock, thus potentially producing higher hydrogens. The impressions themselves evolve in the system according to their own octave. Depending on their quality and intensity, the effects for transmuting them to higher hydrogens may vary dramatically. The higher hydrogens, on the other hand are the energy necessary for the correct functioning of the centers, specially for access to the higher centers.

The experience of objective art can be seen as food for the higher functions. The experience of mechanical imagination, when one imagines only dissipates energy. Nourishing oneself on subjective imaginings of others generally has the effect of reinforcing the corresponding functions of imagination within the self. Man can write libraries of books while entirely asleep and these same books will only cause others to sleep all the deeper. Objective art cannot be created while asleep, it needs to be a product of conscious work intended for a purpose.

The metabolism of hydrogens is explained in detail in In Search of the Miraculous.

 

[iloveyoghurt]

Unlike the others that have responded so far, at this stage of my personal development and awareness, I tend to be thinking it's okay to wonder and imagine about these things. After all, nothing would ever be discovered if we didn't first wonder - we'd just be like sheep (or hamsters), if we didn't use our imaginations in this density. Would be (even more) rather dull I would think. Even more than this, I suspect it is via the imagination and wondering that answers come to us via other realms (our "higher" selves, other densities, etc). Maybe the imagination is a remnant link to our missing DNA, the last bit of which we can still access vague knowledge from?

“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions." Albert Einstein

Just my thoughts.

From the Cassiopedia

http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Imagination_vs._Impression

Imagination vs. Impression

Imagination in modern culture is often seen as a wonderful virtue and bringer of limitless possibility. We see this in phrases like 'only your imagination limits what you can do with' [pick a gadget of your choice].

In 4th Way discourse, the word imagination is seen somewhat differently. Imagination is one of the principal features of man which keep him asleep. Specially negative imagination and identification with it is a detrimental mechanical habit. Negative imagination consists of reviewing by means of automatic habitual association all manner of possible or impossible calamities which might befall one. Knowing about the world's dangers is even necessary but habitually dwelling on them in lurid reveries of horrors is counter-productive. The key distinction here is between mental activity which leads to action and mental activity which alone seeks to generate more similar mental activity.

Positive reveries are not much better, they also represent subjectivity and tend to separate one from reality, i.e. from being awake.

We can of course ask 'what about creativity? Is this not predicated on imagination?'

This is a complex question. Most artistic expression, says Gurdjieff, is 'subjective art.' The artist expresses his inner subjective world and the art in question evokes essentially random responses in others, since the inner worlds of people are generally dissimilar and precise understanding between people is at best a game of chance. Such furthers sleep and further subjectivity.

There is a possibility of objective art but this is rare. Furthermore, the sleeping person may not have a way of distinguishing it from subjective art. Generally, objective art is based on knowledge of the workings of human emotions and cognition and is intended for carrying a conscious message, for producing certain definite impressions. Of course, receiving these impressions requires a certain preparation on behalf of the receiver. But if this readiness exists, objective art will be understood by the beholders in a compatible manner, according to the capacity of each.

We could say that subjective art is expression of self purely based on inner considering. Objective art has an element of external considering and deliberateness.

In the 4th Way sense we could say that imagination is simple mechanical recombination of existing contents. Creativity on the other hand is more akin to tapping into objective contents and giving them a conscious expression in whatever form. One may choose to express beauty of nature, study this, experience this, consider how to render it so that the experience can be reconstructed and then realize this as a work of art. This is much more conscious than mechanical associations which are referred to as imagination and overvalued in today's culture.

Impressions on the other hand are called the 'third being food' and are an absolute necessity for life. One can be without breathing for 2 minutes but one cannot be without impressions for any length of time. Of course the very fact of having a body provides a minimum feed of impressions.

The quality of impressions assimilated by one may vary greatly. What the organism produces with its psychophysical metabolism varies in function of the raw materials. The organism is so constructed that man cannot eat other things than what he does, nor can he breathe anything but air. The intake of impressions is not however as restricted.

For producing so-called 'higher hydrogens' the quality of the impressions, themselves also a hydrogen, is important. Self-remembering while assimilating impressions helps the air octave to develop past the first shock, thus potentially producing higher hydrogens. The impressions themselves evolve in the system according to their own octave. Depending on their quality and intensity, the effects for transmuting them to higher hydrogens may vary dramatically. The higher hydrogens, on the other hand are the energy necessary for the correct functioning of the centers, specially for access to the higher centers.

The experience of objective art can be seen as food for the higher functions. The experience of mechanical imagination, when one imagines only dissipates energy. Nourishing oneself on subjective imaginings of others generally has the effect of reinforcing the corresponding functions of imagination within the self. Man can write libraries of books while entirely asleep and these same books will only cause others to sleep all the deeper. Objective art cannot be created while asleep, it needs to be a product of conscious work intended for a purpose.

The metabolism of hydrogens is explained in detail in In Search of the Miraculous.

Guess it's up to the individual to discern for themselves whether they are experiencing (mechanical) "imaginings" and perpetuating the sleeping, or are experiencing "impressions" which are assisting in the awakening.

 

[anart]

Guess it's up to the individual to discern for themselves whether they are experiencing (mechanical) "imaginings" and perpetuating the sleeping, or are experiencing "impressions" which are assisting in the awakening.

Unfortunately, it is impossible for the individual to discern for themselves. A sleeping person cannot tell if she/he is awakening, or if she/he is merely dreaming that they are awakening. This is the whole point, that a man cannot awaken on his own, he needs someone who is already awake to assist him.

 

[iloveyoghurt]

We were talking about imaging what it's like in 4D land. I was simply saying that, contrary to opinions already posted, I think it's a useful thing to do as one might access "impressions" of what it is like, and - as the quote above clarifies - experiencing these impressions is very natural for 3D to do so and that it is in fact 'third being food', potentially providing hydrogens that are necessary for the correct functioning of 'the centers'. Pretty much what I was talking about.

Assuming the person is awake to some degree of course. If you are asleep you probably aren't reading this. The discussion about people who are asleep/awake, and whether they need to be awoken by others (presumably yourself) is surely another topic.

 

[anart]

We were talking about imaging what it's like in 4D land. I was simply saying that, contrary to opinions already posted, I think it's a useful thing to do as one might access "impressions" of what it is like, and - as the quote above clarifies - experiencing these impressions is very natural for 3D to do so and that it is in fact 'third being food', potentially providing hydrogens that are necessary for the correct functioning of 'the centers'. Pretty much what I was talking about.

Assuming the person is awake to some degree of course. If you are asleep you probably aren't reading this. The discussion about people who are asleep/awake, and whether they need to be awoken by others (presumably yourself) is surely another topic.

Actually, many, many asleep people are reading this. It seems you have some misconceptions about being asleep and being awake in the esoteric sense. Since you appear to be relating your ideas on imagination to a vast misunderstanding of Gurdjieff, here is what he had to say about imagination:

"'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. Daydreaming is absolutely the opposite of 'useful' mental activity. 'Useful' in this case means activity directed towards a definite aim and undertaken for the sake of obtaining a definite result. Daydreaming does not pursue any aim, does not strive after any result. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center. The actual process is carried on by the thinking center. The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.' Daydreaming of disagreeable, morbid things is very characteristic of the unbalanced state of the human machine, After all, one can understand daydreaming of a pleasant kind and find logical justification for it. Daydreaming of an unpleasant character is an utter absurdity. And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center.

And, no, I'm not referring to myself when I say one must be helped to awaken by someone who is already awake. I am one who is being helped to awaken, actually. I have periods of being just awake enough to realize this. ;)

 

[obyvatel]

I find this sentence from the cassiopedia glossary very useful regarding imagination
[quote author=cassiopedia glossary]
The key distinction here is between mental activity which leads to action and mental activity which alone seeks to generate more similar mental activity.
[/quote]
Imagination of a certain kind which promotes creative thinking and action seems useful. But in this context which is imagining how things would be in 4D, it is difficult to see how it could be a useful activity.
[quote author=iloveyoghurt]
We were talking about imaging what it's like in 4D land. I was simply saying that, contrary to opinions already posted, I think it's a useful thing to do as one might access "impressions" of what it is like........
[/quote]
The little we know about densities seem to indicate the higher densities operate at a level very different from what we are familiar with. So how would one know that impressions of 4D are being accessed? The content of imagination is perhaps more likely to be a mechanical reordering of experiences (perhaps impressions received from sci-fi movies, novels etc ) here in 3D.
Since the concept of densities is obtained from communication with C's (in the context of this forum), it may be useful to remember that the C's had given an analogy about reaching a new grade in school regarding the topic of reaching the next density. Learning the lessons of third grade lets one graduate to fourth grade. Imagining how things are in 4th grade is not likely to help in learning 3rd grade lessons.