Ray Peat on the Dark Side of Fish Oil Supplementation

Speaking as one who has taken fish oil in generous amounts daily for 3 or 4 years, I've not seen any clinical downside to it yet. My fat profile shows a bit of omega-3 dominance, at least over what's considered "normal" but nothing in an extensive battery of lab tests show up any problem areas. And I seem to rarely catch a cold or flu anymore. (Paleo eating helps that, too)

I'm taking 1 to 2 ounces daily, right from the bottle (it's not as horrid as you might think). More than anything else I've done, this seems to be the one thing that has kept my meniere's symptoms from flaring up. I've gone at least 3 years without any major symptoms - which is practically a miracle in my book. I recently had a 3 week flare-up of symptoms but that seems to have abated (I upped my dose of fish oil for a few weeks, that may have helped resolve the flare-up - and also started taking fairly high doses of antioxidants).

Since the fish oil just keeps the meniere's at bay, not curing it, I assume it's the anti-inflammatory properties that are the main reason I'm seeing benefit from it. I had hoped the fish oil and phosphotidyl choline would help build better cell membranes which might fix the problem, but I wasn't that lucky.

As for Ray Peet, he surely puts out a huge amount of data to more or less support his point, but I think more evidence has been left out than included. From my readings on fish oil, it looks like his data is pretty much cherry picked to support his bias.

His article points out nice and clearly how finding truth amidst the vast quantity of research papers is surely a task needing ariadne's thread to follow. So much of research data now is bogus - as SOTT articles keep showing us.

What I'm seeing in his article is the use of micro-data points to support a macro position -- uhh, let me try to explain that. Some, or even all, of the research he relies upon may be accurate in a specific context, but in the big picture, ie the clinical effects on human health - it won't be relevant. For example, you can make a fuss over lipid oxidation, but oxidation is essential to continue living. If oxidation isn't balanced with antioxidants to keep the cycle of life going, then yeah, you develop problems - but oxidation isn't bad in and of itself.

OK, I didn't argue that too well, but hopefully you see what I mean. I've been trying to sort out truth from disinfo in the area of health and medicine for years and it's just astounding how how complex the disinfo is. It's no wonder Ray Peet might have misled himself, even if he had the best of intentions (which is questionable).

Based on what I've read, and what I've seen of Ray Peet's article, I don't see any reason not to supplement with a good quality fish oil. Be aware, though, that the BP Gulf oil spill chemicals will get right into the fats of any fish exposed to it - and I think that means many fish in the north atlantic. Also be aware that the radiation from fukushima (and elsewhere) is spreading rapidly through the north pacific ocean - I expect radiation to start showing up in this years salmon catch.
 
Iron said:
curious_richard said:
dugdeep said:
His reasoning is something along the lines of fructose having an insulin suppressing effect, ...
We know that fructose does not suppress insulin, but that it does not cause extra insulin because it goes directly to the liver and gets stored as liver fat. So his claim may be true, but not useful.

... and therefore taking in sugar, (which is half glucose and half fructose), will keep insulin lower than starch, (which is all glucose). By this reasoning, he says starch incourages fat storage more than sugar does.
Carbs get stored as fat. Some (fructose) are stored in the liver, the rest in other places. Why is it helpful to eat carbs (fructose) that end up as fat in the liver? Is liver fat beneficial?

Carbs get stored as fat more easily than other macronutrients. Other carbs also end as fat in the liver, depending on the cellular/physiological signaling. Fat in the liver will end up oxidated to generate energy for the organ. However there seems to be some evidence that excess carbs and disrupted insulin signaling are the precursors of Non-Alcoholic Fat Liver Disease ( Non Alcoholic Steatosis), that is the abnormal deposit of excess fat in the liver, leading to generalized cell death, and eventually failure of the organ, due to the toxicity of the excessive quantity of fatty acids.

Here's Gary Taubes in an article on SOTT:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/245313-Why-the-Campaign-to-Stop-America-s-Obesity-Crisis-Keeps-Failing

Left unsaid is the fact that sucrose and high-fructose corn syrup have a unique chemical composition, a near 50-50 combination of two different carbohydrates: glucose and fructose. And while glucose is metabolized by virtually every cell in the body, the fructose (also found in fruit, but in much lower concentrations) is metabolized mostly by liver cells. From there, the chain of metabolic events has been worked out by biochemists over 50 years: some of the fructose is converted into fat, the fat accumulates in the liver cells, which become resistant to the action of insulin, and so more insulin is secreted to compensate. The end results are elevated levels of insulin, which is the hallmark of type 2 diabetes, and the steady accumulation of fat in our fat tissue - a few tens of calories worth per day, leading to pounds per year, and obesity over the course of a few decades.

Last fall, researchers at the University of California, Davis, published three studies - two of humans, one of rhesus monkeys - confirming the deleterious effect of these sugars on metabolism and insulin levels. The message of all three studies was that sugars are unhealthy - not because people or monkeys consumed too much of them, but because, well, they do things to our bodies that the other nutrients we eat simply don't do.
 
"Based on what I've read, and what I've seen of Ray Peet's article, I don't see any reason not to supplement with a good quality fish oil. Be aware, though, that the BP Gulf oil spill chemicals will get right into the fats of any fish exposed to it - and I think that means many fish in the north atlantic. Also be aware that the radiation from fukushima (and elsewhere) is spreading rapidly through the north pacific ocean - I expect radiation to start showing up in this years salmon catch.[/quote]
Good evening
I have just started taking a fish oil (Wal-Mart brand) to help with stopping/staying off anti depressants. That and a gluten free diet loaded with fats. Anywho, my major concern is near the end of your story where you point out the radiation and bp oil chemicals possibly contaminating the fish (and thus the oil) in the north Atlantic, and radiation sprreading. Thank you for the heads up as I am from nj and I'm sure we get a lot of fish from the north. May i ask where you read this part? I would like to look up my brand to make sure it's not made from contaminated fish.
As well as freshness as Gertrudes pointed out. I would hate to be injesting rancid oil...when i could just eat fish.

I would like to reaf anything I can on the products being contaminated due to bp and radiation, and manufacturers; any help is great.
Thank you.
"Been off the depressants for about a week now :) )
 
dj said:
Since the fish oil just keeps the meniere's at bay, not curing it, I assume it's the anti-inflammatory properties that are the main reason I'm seeing benefit from it. I had hoped the fish oil and phosphotidyl choline would help build better cell membranes which might fix the problem, but I wasn't that lucky.

I don't understand how you can cure a thing, if you don't know what causes it. Yes, I get modern medicine sucks, and they do seem to be pretty clueless, (treating symptoms instead of causes), but it may be a case of multiple things interacting (and them not understanding, or even acknowledging this problem - nothing new).

I don't think many people get 'lucky' unless they 'luckily' happen on the one thing that influences something. This seems to be how modern medicine works. And sadly, how we work most of the time. They (and we) get 'lucky'.

I noticed that you don't credit your paleo diet with any health benefits with relation to Meniere's. Nor antioxidants such as vitamin C. Just the fish oil. I'm not sure you can discount anything if the cause of something is unknown. I did wonder if this Meniere's thing was something to do with the mitochondria. But that may be just a silly supposition on my part. I can see that there might be a viral cause/influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re%27s_disease

So, what causes Meniere's? If we know what causes it, we can figure out how to treat it and cure it. Seriously! This bloke described it in 1861 and still we have.... nothing??? Not impressed. Does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on this?
 
I did a search. ;)
http://www.sott.net/article/251607-Gluten-Sensitivity-and-Vertigo-Menieres-Disease
 
Ruth said:
I don't think many people get 'lucky' unless they 'luckily' happen on the one thing that influences something. This seems to be how modern medicine works. And sadly, how we work most of the time. They (and we) get 'lucky'.

I noticed that you don't credit your paleo diet with any health benefits with relation to Meniere's. Nor antioxidants such as vitamin C. Just the fish oil. I'm not sure you can discount anything if the cause of something is unknown. I did wonder if this Meniere's thing was something to do with the mitochondria. But that may be just a silly supposition on my part. I can see that there might be a viral cause/influence.

While I do feel lucky to have found something that kept the severely debilitating effects of meniere's at bay for 5 or so years, I haven't found anything that amounts to a cure yet. Finding out fish oil works so well for me was a bit of luck, as I came across Dr. Sherry Roger's "Detoxify or Die" book (thanks to SOTT articles) and included her information in my search for something to successfully treat meniere's. I was getting a little desperate to find something at that point. The traditional medical approach wasn't doing much and I really didn't see much good coming out of the surgery the specialist wanted to perform. I was searching for any kind of clue or approach that might help.

Taking a clue from Dr. Rogers, I tried detoxing approaches (DMSA, removal of mercury fillings, etc.) which included increasing omega 3's - with the idea that rebuilding cell membranes with good fats would improve the cells ability to function (including the mitochondria). There was also the additional help that fish oil might give acting as an anti-inflammatory.

By this time I had tried many approaches (including pretty high dosing with anti-oxidants) but nothing came close to working as well as sizable dosing with fish oil. It took 2 or 3 weeks for the relief to show up but I confirmed how well it worked again and again by trying to cut back the dose - within 1 to 2 weeks the symptoms would start flaring up and I would start double dosing the fish oil till, 2 or 3 weeks later, symptoms came back under control.

At the time I started fish oil, I had never heard of paleo, but when I did start trying that (again thanks to SOTT), I felt it helped me in many ways, but testing the meniere's healing effects of it by lowering the fish oil dose resulted in flare-ups of the symptoms. Increasing the fish oil dose resulted in relief of symptoms.

I still have hopes the paleo may lead to enough healing over the longer period to allow healing of meniere's.

The effects of fish oil have been lessening over the last 5 or 6 months, and even doubling the dose doesn't bring the relief it used to. This leads me to assume the fish oil is no cure, not even taken over a 5 year period - and it's time to try a new approach.

My thoughts on this were turning to how to treat an auto-immune disorder and started researching into Lyme's and other nasty lingering parasitic infections. Then, lo and behold, Laura and crew uncover this iodine protocol for both serious detox and serious infectious type auto-immune disorders.

So now I'm trying the iodine protocol and results have been somewhat positive. Positive enough to continue trying it, along with increased fish oil, paleo, EE, colostrum, anti-oxidants, and whatever else might help. It's an interesting journey, and I feel I've been blessed not to be crippled by this meniere's yet - and thankful that doing the work of researching and trying out new approaches has resulted in effective therapy for it.

CelenaJohnson -
I'm using Nature's Answer fish oil, I usually buy it form IHerb but other places sell it too.

According to the label it's been micro distilled (I think that's the term they use) - which is similar to the Carlson's fish oil product - considered by some to be among the best.

I have no definitive data that's it's free of radiation or toxins, but I think they're using the right approach to make it as pure as reasonably possible. They cost half as much as Carlson's but I buy this brand because I can afford it, and it should be as pure as Carlson's. I've never received a bottle (that I can recall) that was at all rancid or off-taste. Once I open a bottle, it keeps in the fridge up to 2 weeks or more with no deterioration of apparent quality.

You might want to contact the manufacturer and ask them where they get their fish from. If it comes from the Gulf of Mexico I wouldn't touch it, distillation or not. If it comes from off the coast of Japan then I would avoid it.

Back in 2013 and early 2014 I was living in Alaska, near Anchorage. I knew some wreckage and artifacts from Fukushima where arriving along parts of the AK coast, and I was getting worried the salmon and other fish might be building up some radiation. I tested several batches of salmon several times and got no increase over background radiation. It was not a careful, scientifically approved testing method but it was reassuring to me nonetheless.

I apologize for being so long winded, I hope y'all don't find it too much off-topic
dj
 
dj thank you for takinh the time to point me in the right direction. I do apologize for not acknowledging your issue (Meniere's) from what i read.
I hope the paleo diet along with the fish oil and iodine therapy. I am using goldenseal to detoxify, and will soon be starting iodine.
Maybe goldenseal would be of some help to you as well. (Removing fluoride etc) if i can recall a session where the C's mention this.
I really do hope you are feeling well and i will see where spring valley brand gets their fish.

THANK YOU dj
 

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