Religion as character development

[David]

That's how I interpret these quotes from some recent Cs sessions:

A: For all forum members: Do not lose heart. Just remember that if you do all you can, yourselves in the future will bridge the gap. You are all potential transducers of information into chaos. Let that information be love/truth. Goodbye.

A: Divine will manifests through humanity. Giving rise to many manifestations of your reality.

Q: (L) What is divine will?

A: Energy of information configurations of infinite permutations.

So which 'information configurations' do we want to conform with and manifest?

Perhaps a configuration that is less edible - though to be human is to be imperfect, and perhaps sin is more in line with our subjective nature, and our capacity to confabulate, our cognitive dissonance when faced with anything that threatens our belief systems, and the power of the mob... to contend with.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=AI]
I think the development of the emotional center, through positive disintegration, is what helps to effect the transformation of desire, motivation, and action.
[/quote]

Have you encountered any views from Dabrowski regarding the role (if any) a religious community plays in effecting positive disintegration in its members?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

[quote author=AI]
I think the development of the emotional center, through positive disintegration, is what helps to effect the transformation of desire, motivation, and action.

Have you encountered any views from Dabrowski regarding the role (if any) a religious community plays in effecting positive disintegration in its members?
[/quote]

Not specifically that I remember at this point. But he does hint at things, especially in what he says about the importance of advisers and the need for increased engagement with others as one progresses. And he has this to say about religious communities:

Another basic individual quality is represented by lasting emotional bonds of love and friendship, bonds symbolized by the Platonic myth of two halves of the same soul. The best example of such conjunction are the bonds between Christ and His Apostles [better example would be Paul and his ekklesia!], which lead to the highest degree of friendship, or the individual bonds between Christ and St. John, Mary Magdalene, and Lazarus [again, no cigar - these are fictions - but you get the idea]. Such bonds are further exemplified by the spiritual bonds between Socrates or Pythagoras and their disciples, or by the brotherhood often entered into in religious orders ... In common life we encounter such individual or group unions of a higher order of spiritual tension in the love between married people, in the fraternal or sisterly unions, and in the friendly unions between individuals not related who go side by side desiring the realization of a common idea. (Personality-Shaping)

Related, on social behavior at higher levels:

SOCIAL BEHAVIOR Level IV
... There is high empathy toward individuals and groups on different levels of development, with a constant tendency for understanding and help, though without the approval of attitudes regarded to be negative. In this level one develops the understanding of always being a responsible contributing member of a social group.

SOCIAL BEHAVIOR Level V
Systematization and mastery of alterocentric attitudes (self sacrifice). Not only a full harmony develops between social views and the capacity to put them to practice, but they are supported by the ability to cooperate with different levels of philosophical attitudes in respect to oneself and to the environment. ... (Multilevelness)

And religion:

RELIGION Level IV
... A strong need to feel and realize love in relationship with others. Consistency between religious convictions and one’s deeds. The balance between an intellectual and an emotional attitude toward God grows stronger because at this level emotional and intellectual functions begin to operate in unity and harmony. ...

RELIGION Level V
Fully developed attitude of love stemming from the highest values which personify divinity and people in their unrepeatable and individual relationships. Active love resulting from experiences gained in meditation and contemplation. Total readiness for sacrifice for the sake of others and for one’s faith. Union with God is experienced in meditation or in strong intuitive projections. Such experiences generate an inner understanding of God through so-called infused knowledge. ... (Multilevelness)

So not much that I'm aware of other than what can be extrapolated from related topics.

 

[Renaissance]

Along with the active struggle between 'yes and no', I'm thinking there is also the passive dissociation state that is needed to help crystallize and form the structures we're working towards. Mainstream religions seem to have a distorted versions of this that for the most part maintain lower level structures. An example would be some 'fire and brimstone' sermon where the preacher man introduces all sorts of feelings of guilt, shame, and conflict and then presents the 'lower level structure' that believing in Jesus as your savior is your salvation. And then people sing hymns, recite prayers, and so on. So there is the disintegrative process (the sermon), the reinforcement of the structure, and the dissociation that helps solidify things. I don't think disintegration and dissociation need to be necessarily separate either since the stress of conflict can bring it on in and of itself too. But there does seem to be some mechanisms at work that 'The Powers' understand and utilize. We see the same in disaster capitalizm and the "shock doctrine". These mechanisms seem based in human nature and we can learn to use them for self-directed growth rather than being manipulated as machines to adapt to the direction of pathological types.

 

[Neil]

That's how I interpret these quotes from some recent Cs sessions:

A: For all forum members: Do not lose heart. Just remember that if you do all you can, yourselves in the future will bridge the gap. You are all potential transducers of information into chaos. Let that information be love/truth. Goodbye.

A: Divine will manifests through humanity. Giving rise to many manifestations of your reality.

Q: (L) What is divine will?

A: Energy of information configurations of infinite permutations.

So which 'information configurations' do we want to conform with and manifest?

Yeah, I had that session in mind when reading this thread too. I remember that in my churchgoing days they were always talking about being transformed by the Grace of God if you prayed a lot or whatever. Assuming the underlying premise is valid, even if distorted or corrupted, and applying Cass-level knowledge to it, I think I have arrived at a concise definition of it.

Grace is the divine will (manifested from a higher density) which facilitates personal transformation.

Instead of getting it through "prayer" you get it through the Work; building your receiver.

 

[whitecoast]

I agree with pretty much everything said here so far about religion being a tool for personal and communal personality development. As for whether cosmic information is a necessary feature, of it, I don't think it is. Most religions as we see them "in the wild" contain many A influences, which would create too impure a mixture of I's for the fusion of a magnetic center to properly occur (to use Mouravieff's terms).

Gurdjieff said there are 7 types of religions, which correspond to the levels of personal development he outlined. The religions of levels 1-3 are exoteric and as such can only result in re-conditioning of its participants, not actual development (which requires the participation of a third force). Those of level 4 or 5 are more properly called religions of personal development, since they understand in practical terms the role of the third force (aka grace, aka cosmic information). Religions 1-3 can only understand this force in imitative, philosophical or theoretical terms. The problem with religions 4-5 is, of course, that this cosmic information can come from either an STS or STO source. Religions 6-7 would theoretically only have STO sources because crystallization on incorrect (STS) foundations cannot develop beyond level 5.

 

[obyvatel]

Along with the active struggle between 'yes and no', I'm thinking there is also the passive dissociation state that is needed to help crystallize and form the structures we're working towards. Mainstream religions seem to have a distorted versions of this that for the most part maintain lower level structures. An example would be some 'fire and brimstone' sermon where the preacher man introduces all sorts of feelings of guilt, shame, and conflict and then presents the 'lower level structure' that believing in Jesus as your savior is your salvation. And then people sing hymns, recite prayers, and so on. So there is the disintegrative process (the sermon), the reinforcement of the structure, and the dissociation that helps solidify things.

Per my understanding the situation described above is a form of hypnotic opening followed by suggestions which introduce or reinforce certain ideas.

[quote author=Renaissance]
I don't think disintegration and dissociation need to be necessarily separate either since the stress of conflict can bring it on in and of itself too. But there does seem to be some mechanisms at work that 'The Powers' understand and utilize. We see the same in disaster capitalizm and the "shock doctrine". These mechanisms seem based in human nature and we can learn to use them for self-directed growth rather than being manipulated as machines to adapt to the direction of pathological types.
[/quote]

There is a veritable industry out there which teaches self-improvement through hypnotic techniques. I have not tried any - so cannot comment. However, the general method of hypnotic opening and subsequent implant of suggestions do not seem to align with 4th Way or Dabrowski's description of the growth process. G occasionally used hypnosis to demonstrate something to his students but did not afaik use it as a general instrument of the Work. From what I have read about Laura's experiences as a hypnotherapist, I doubt that hypnotic techniques can bring about character development in the sense it is being discussed.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Yeah, I think the ideas on this thread are well explored and discussed. I also agree that often grace comes after immense suffering and a collapse/positive disintegration, where new space for something "higher" to come in is established. It usually, in hindsight, reveals how beneficial the suffering and positive disintegration was in setting a path to further development. Also, there can tend to be a feeling of remorse of conscience for being so self-centered in the midst of the suffering (losing sight of the bigger picture/value/meaning of the experience). Or so it seems.

I also think it may be wise to keep in mind that these processes aren't so set in stone. The overall descriptions of, for example Mouravieff's staircase, are accurate as far as they go, but can have a wide variation in terms of how much time and difficulty is involved in each step for a particular person, etc. In other words, the descriptions, when applied to individual cases, can turn out to be less "accurate" than they are as a good theoretical framework.

 

[Anthony]

Yeah, I think the ideas on this thread are well explored and discussed. I also agree that often grace comes after immense suffering and a collapse/positive disintegration, where new space for something "higher" to come in is established. It usually, in hindsight, reveals how beneficial the suffering and positive disintegration was in setting a path to further development. Also, there can tend to be a feeling of remorse of conscience for being so self-centered in the midst of the suffering (losing sight of the bigger picture/value/meaning of the experience). Or so it seems.

I also think it may be wise to keep in mind that these processes aren't so set in stone. The overall descriptions of, for example Mouravieff's staircase, are accurate as far as they go, but can have a wide variation in terms of how much time and difficulty is involved in each step for a particular person, etc. In other words, the descriptions, when applied to individual cases, can turn out to be less "accurate" than they are as a good theoretical framework.

As described by Dabrowski, it definitely seems that positive disintegration is a prerequisite to any sort of growth or Work as described by Gurdjieff and Mouravieff.

As regards to the original question in the thread: is developing one's character all there is to 'religion', or is there more? I would say there's much more to it and development of character is just one step on the staircase.

 

[Laura]

As regards to the original question in the thread: is developing one's character all there is to 'religion', or is there more? I would say there's much more to it and development of character is just one step on the staircase.

Well, after reading, re-reading, and re-reading more times than I care to enumerate, the epistles of Paul - the inventor of Christianity as we know it - the one thing that stands out is the enormous time and attention that he was clearly giving to some of the most basic ideas of morality and decent behavior. He also had to deal with psychopathology within his groups and attacks from those opposed to him. That people were as bereft of understanding how to interact with one another as his letters reveal them to have been is very instructive.

Paul was intensely focused on getting his converts to understand some pretty simple concepts of love and caring for one another and networking at all times. That his converts appear to have been rather slow is apparent. He fluctuates between being extraordinarily patient and downright frustrated with them. So, certainly, Paul was attempting to inculcate principles that would lead to character development in the communities he evangelized, and these principles were based on a way of viewing reality that was something of a combination of Platonic and Stoic elements with a large dash of pagan mystery religions thrown in.

 

[Renaissance]

There is a veritable industry out there which teaches self-improvement through hypnotic techniques. I have not tried any - so cannot comment. However, the general method of hypnotic opening and subsequent implant of suggestions do not seem to align with 4th Way or Dabrowski's description of the growth process. G occasionally used hypnosis to demonstrate something to his students but did not afaik use it as a general instrument of the Work. From what I have read about Laura's experiences as a hypnotherapist, I doubt that hypnotic techniques can bring about character development in the sense it is being discussed.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the internal mechanisms that these forces work upon, i.e. dissociation and disintegration. Pathological types seem to have an uncanny ability to tap into the aspects of human psychology that can change our internal structures. While these aspects are manipulated to maintain lower levels of being and/or destroy consciousness, these same parts also appear to have the seeds for the possibilities of development for higher levels, for those who have those possibilities. Disintegration can be positive or negative and dissociation can be positive or negative.

I was thinking of what Laura wrote about Schumaker's work regarding dissociation.

From The Golden Age, Psychopathy and the Sixth Extinction

John Schumaker, in his book The Corruption of Reality, points out that human beings seem to come hardwired with a need to dissociate. I think that this is actually a need to make contact with the higher self - the field of information, if you like, that is transduced by our DNA. Some of us have DNA that connects us to the creative source, inherited from our Cro-Magnon ancestors, and some of us may have DNA that connects us to our Neanderthal ancestors - just a roll of the DNA dice, for the most part. (See Mithen's The Prehistory of the Mind for cognitive science details.) In the Neanderthal-dominant individual (taking that as an hypothesis), the brain's ability to dissociate can simply be a normal state of being - a brain with no overseer or fully human consciousness enabling the coordination of the various parts and functions of the brain. It can also result in other mental disorders. In the individual with Cro-Magnon/fully human DNA connection, the brain's capacity to dissociate has the potential to be utilized in a completely different way: a means of accessing and connecting to archetypal realms, realms of pure consciousness.

In any event, it seems clear from the evidence that Schumaker presents, that it is a hardwired function in all human-type beings that is just waiting to be taken advantage of by any snake-oil salesman that comes along. It is also abundantly evident that those who do not utilize this ability of the brain - those who suppress it - suffer from a myriad of physical disorders.

 

[BHelmet]

Tremendous discussion. I don't have much to add to what has been so well said, but I think there is a distinct difference between vice and sin. I would say that vices are more of a lower level repetitive uncontrolled behavior, or program as seen from a subjective exoteric point of view. Eg, gambling, drinking, and... smoking. The concept of sin would seem to be some kind of higher level judgement or discernment from a more absolute perspective. Perhaps in other words, vice is subjective and sin is objective. (although what makes an act or thought a sin still needs to be learned)

Didn't Mouravieff call sin an error in conception? Or did he say that sin was a result of an error in conception?

So, what is sin a violation of? Is it dependent on orientation? For STS there probably is no sin. For the STO path, we are attempting to walk on a swords edge.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=Renaissance]
While these aspects are manipulated to maintain lower levels of being and/or destroy consciousness, these same parts also appear to have the seeds for the possibilities of development for higher levels, for those who have those possibilities. Disintegration can be positive or negative and dissociation can be positive or negative.
[/quote]

If you read accounts of Poincare, Kekule and other people who have had instances of brilliant insight, they had driven themselves to intellectual exhaustion pursuing the questions they were after. It was in such a state that their breakthroughs came.
In accounts of people working closely with G, they too were driven to exhaustion of the body and mind through the demands G made of them. Then they would do some exercise which would bring in a completely fresh impression.

If we look at our mind as a sensitive screen on which images are projected - usually habitual associations, thoughts and feelings crowd the screen. The images may be caused by immediate sensory stimuli - in which case they are closer to immediate physical reality. The images on the screen may also be projected from memory as in regurgitating old experiences, or daydreaming. I think these latter conditions are treated as mild forms of dissociation. Nevertheless, normally this screen is always busy with images from external (physical) or internal ( within the personal psyche) sources.

It is possible that driving oneself to exhaustion with intense efforts has the effect of clearing the screen so that it can receive fresh impressions from other higher sources - or can accept a familiar idea in new light without it being contaminated by habitual association patterns crowding the screen. Impressions received when the screen is relatively more quiet can perhaps reach deeper into the psyche. An image of very high intensity or a tremendous shock can have similar effects but there is danger of damaging the sensitive screen or inner areas of the psyche in this way.

My current understanding is that we tend to dissociate often - but mostly such dissociative activities keep the screen busy rather than clear. Unconscious pattern matching mechanisms can be at work in such states and may occasionally produce good results - but the quality of results will perhaps not be much different from those obtained from usual methods of reading, discussing etc.

Hypnotic techniques can temporarily clear the screen but if the psyche is not primed through previous personal efforts, externally imposed suggestions may not penetrate deeply and their effects are short lived or superficial. In other words these may only condition the personality but not touch essence in 4th Way terms.

Per my current understanding, a psyche primed through intense efforts and a quiet mind/ screen facilitate insights. Efforts include the components of knowledge input, as well as struggle. To have a quiet screen other than using methods of exhaustion, one has to sacrifice attachment to results and thus anticipation. Then grace in the form of new insights or expanded awareness can come through.

There can be similar mechanisms through dissociation - have not found convincing accounts of such yet.

 

[Mikey]

As regards to the original question in the thread: is developing one's character all there is to 'religion', or is there more?

It's a hard question to answer without defining "Religion" and "character development" more closely IMO. There is probably more than just this character development because so much of the Way is ahead of us, and we can't yet see there. I'm assuming that the lessons are various and equally 'difficult' at each step.

But, I think that our current lessons must necessarily have mostly to do with "character development" when one considers that nothing larger is possible without a community. And because of our default human nature -- we are "unfortunates" in G's terms --, forming a coherent community is difficult unless all of its members do "character development". It simply seems to be the major and first task.

Once that is accomplished, such a community maybe is able to discern the next steps.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Didn't Mouravieff call sin an error in conception? Or did he say that sin was a result of an error in conception?

So, what is sin a violation of? Is it dependent on orientation? For STS there probably is no sin. For the STO path, we are attempting to walk on a swords edge.

Dabrowski defined the feeling of sin as the self-awareness that one has behaved in a way that is not in line with her personality ideal, i.e. her higher values and aims ("sin, an internal experience, is then a more or less conscious offense committed by a given individual in conflict with the principles accepted, recognized, and affirmed by him, and a transgression for which his conscience holds him responsible").

Gurdjieff defined sin as that which is unnecessary for people who are on the way, i.e. in reference to their aim. So for both, sin is only something that really applies once one has enough of an inner "I" to differentiate between the higher and lower in oneself, in reference to their goal or aim. And the feeling of violating that inner standard, of 'falling' into the lower, is the feeling of sin.

The earliest interpreters of Paul thought he was saying something somewhat different, but which still fits the picture. For example, here's Origen, from his commentary on Paul's letter to the Romans:

it is one thing to have sinned, another to be a sinner. One is called a sinner who, by committing many transgressions, has already reached the point of making sinning into a habit and, so to speak, a course of study. Just as, on the other hand, one is not called just who has once or twice done some just act, but who continually behaves justly and keeps justice in use and makes it habitual. For if someone is unjust in nearly all other matters but should carry out some just work one or two times, he will indeed be said to have acted justly in that work in which he practiced justice; nevertheless he will not on that basis be called a just man. Similarly it will indeed be said that a just man has sinned if he has at some time committed what is not lawful. But he will not on that account be labeled a sinner, since he does not hold fast to the practice and habit of sinning.

Both ways of looking at it divide people into roughly two groups: those who are habitually disposed to a lower type of being (vice, the 'ordinary' man) and those disposed to something higher (virtue, the way). For Dabrowski and Gurdjieff, there is no sin at a low level because there is no awareness of sin and such a way of life leads to its natural result. In other words, in reference to their 'end' or telos, they are doing nothing wrong per se. They'll get what they give. But for Paul, that end was 'death', and when judged in reference to the telos of life, they are simply leading the wrong kind of life, our of harmony with the nature of the universe.