Repaying Debts

[Beorn]

I wanted to get some advice on whether what I am thinking makes sense or not. I feel like I need to share and learn what I need to do in this situation if I want to keep moving forward.

It's a little embarrasing and I feel stupid posting this but here goes...

I have noticed an increasing desire to repay the people who I may have hurt in the past. It seems to stem from the positive part of the emotional centre and everything is clear when that happens. When I stop and think about it however, all kinds of considerations come into play and I begin to doubt the initial realization. This doubt paralyzes me which then seems to create a block and a build up of energies, like a kink in a hose, until I work out what to do.

Anyway, one of the debts I think needs to be repayed is to a friend I grew up with all through school. I always liked her but due to shyness and the fact I couldn't see past myself I never told her. We did eventually date but I was so awkward, hated myself, and was so embarrased that I ended up just saying a quick goodbye and left, never to speak to her again. I've always felt horrible about it ever since. (over 10 years)

It dawned on me that to be fair to her would mean repaying this debt with an apology. The realization was to give her a call and tell her 'I'm sorry'. Given that it has been so long I thought I would think it over for a few days. This brought a whole host of doubts and fears which seemed to muddy what I thought was a pure desire to do what was best for her. These doubts and fears are all based on me, except for this: Is it fair to just contact someone out of the blue after so long, considering I have no idea what is going, or has gone on, on in her life? In a desire to repay a debt I woudn't want to increase it!

This has brought up other people I may have hurt. A friend I did not go and see after she had a bad accident and someone I played sport with who spent time in jail and I never went to see. In all these cases my heart burned inside me, but I couldn't overcome feelings of worthless to see their needs. These two I have spoken with since and am still friends with the girl who had the accident, but have never apologized, which I think I might do now.

Am I being overly sensitive? Don Juan says follow the path of heart and I want to do that from now on.

 

[anart]

Am I being overly sensitive? Don Juan says follow the path of heart and I want to do that from now on.

Perhaps the most important question to ask yourself is - - - would you really be doing it for them, having no knowledge of where they are in their individual lives and how the past even affected them - or would you be doing it to make yourself feel better? Just a thought - I don't have the answer.

 

[Bobo08]

Hi JP,

There's no one-size-fit-all answer for this. But IMO, a good approach is to consider what the other party would think of your "payment". Take your ex-girlfriend for example, if you call her up and say sorry after 10 years of no contact, I imagine she would likely think that you are making overtures to renew the relationship. It may not be a good idea, depending on her situation now. The same consideration goes for other cases.

Another thing to examine is your motive in wanting to repay. Is it because you truly want to compensate the other person or because you want to get rid of the burden from your conscience? It would be ideal if you can do both. But many times, it is not possible, you know.

 

[FireShadow]

I can certainly relate...I recently went through a similar dilemma and it can be tricky discerning one's motives. This is the thread I posted on the topic: "Dilemmas with Recapitulation and Clearing up my Karma" (http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11858.0)

I learned much from that experience and the shocks I received helped me greatly. I hope something in that thread will be helpful to you as well.

 

[Beorn]

Thanks for all your replies. Gives me something to think about.

On going through the thread FireShadow this is what stuck out at me:

[quote author="PepperFritz"]
Something that has weighed heavily on your on mind may not have affected the other person to the same degree, and/or they may not appreciate having "old stuff" brought up out of the blue. I mean, the past cannot be "amended". It seems to me that the most important thing is identifying the mechanics of your part in the situation, so that (1) you have learned the lesson involved, and (2) you are unlikely to do the same thing again with someone else. Seems more important that you "get right" with yourself and the universe, than with the other person.[/quote]

Given that I've been going through the breathing program maybe I should let all this stuff run itself out first and not attempt to do anything.

Your right Bobo08, I'm not sure how it would be viewed so I will just keep cleaning the machine and try to show greater awareness of others needs in the future. At the moment I think this is the most considerate thing to do. I'm sure my higher self will make it clear if I am supposed to make ammends in any way.

Thanks, JP

 

[Be Like Water]

hi, JP

I have noticed an increasing desire to repay the people who I may have hurt in the past. It seems to stem from the positive part of the emotional centre and everything is clear when that happens. When I stop and think about it however, all kinds of considerations come into play and I begin to doubt the initial realization. This doubt paralyzes me which then seems to create a block and a build up of energies, like a kink in a hose, until I work out what to do.

Yep, I can relate to that.

I have been thinking similar thoughts lately about past interactions. An old friend of mine, who once attended AA meetings, told me of the concept of a moral inventory. It is similar (but less far reaching) to don juan's strategic inventory. Basically, the main point I got from it was to write down, on paper, a list of all the people you thought you had offended ect., and assess, on a case by case basis, what, if any, amends can be made, and if this would adversely affect the other party.

I have in the past tried to apologize to people while in inner conflict, this did not work out to well, and if anything created more confusion.
Gotta keep that machine clean.... :)

 

[danaguesswho]

I wanted to get some advice on whether what I am thinking makes sense or not. I feel like I need to share and learn what I need to do in this situation if I want to keep moving forward.

It's a little embarrasing and I feel stupid posting this but here goes...

I have noticed an increasing desire to repay the people who I may have hurt in the past. It seems to stem from the positive part of the emotional centre and everything is clear when that happens. When I stop and think about it however, all kinds of considerations come into play and I begin to doubt the initial realization. This doubt paralyzes me which then seems to create a block and a build up of energies, like a kink in a hose, until I work out what to do.

Anyway, one of the debts I think needs to be repayed is to a friend I grew up with all through school. I always liked her but due to shyness and the fact I couldn't see past myself I never told her. We did eventually date but I was so awkward, hated myself, and was so embarrased that I ended up just saying a quick goodbye and left, never to speak to her again. I've always felt horrible about it ever since. (over 10 years)

It dawned on me that to be fair to her would mean repaying this debt with an apology. The realization was to give her a call and tell her 'I'm sorry'. Given that it has been so long I thought I would think it over for a few days. This brought a whole host of doubts and fears which seemed to muddy what I thought was a pure desire to do what was best for her. These doubts and fears are all based on me, except for this: Is it fair to just contact someone out of the blue after so long, considering I have no idea what is going, or has gone on, on in her life? In a desire to repay a debt I woudn't want to increase it!

This has brought up other people I may have hurt. A friend I did not go and see after she had a bad accident and someone I played sport with who spent time in jail and I never went to see. In all these cases my heart burned inside me, but I couldn't overcome feelings of worthless to see their needs. These two I have spoken with since and am still friends with the girl who had the accident, but have never apologized, which I think I might do now.

Am I being overly sensitive? Don Juan says follow the path of heart and I want to do that from now on.

I have often thought the same thing obut contacting , writing , calling etc. everyone that I had ever hurt or wronged but when it came down to it , the one person you have to forgive for everything , IS YOURSELF , I have let everything go and in my mind I have forgiven everything bad I have ever done to others and have also forgiven others for the wrongs I have recieved too.
Forgiving myself was what I really needed to do and get over what has happened in the past, guilt is not good for anyone and I can surely attest to that in many ways.
None of us are perfect and not all of our lives have been rosy and sweet, there are things I wish I had never done and things that I wished I could have taken back etc. but to dwell on those things did nothing for them or me and that was the problem. Dwelling was the real hurt , and to solve it was to truly forgive myself and move on, realize what I did, learn and put a close on that chapter of my life and just to make everyday after that a better one than the last . I let it go, I let go what others have done to me and do not hold grudges because I know what happened can not be changed no matter how hard or long I dwell on it, so therefore it does not matter to me anymore.
This is just my personal insight and I hope it helps somewhat if any, if not take it with a grain of salt and do what you have set in your mind to resolve and make amends the situations.
Have a great day......

 

[pstott]

I have noticed an increasing desire to repay the people who I may have hurt in the past. It seems to stem from the positive part of the emotional centre and everything is clear when that happens. When I stop and think about it however, all kinds of considerations come into play and I begin to doubt the initial realization. This doubt paralyzes me which then seems to create a block and a build up of energies, like a kink in a hose, until I work out what to do.

I can relate to this, and the thought has cropped up from time to time. However for me it would be very difficult to find people who I have not seen for decades - if they are still alive. I'm afraid that I just don't have the time to devote to trying to locate them, and no real idea of where to begin either...

Moderator's note: the quote has been fixed

 

[Hildegarda]

Take your ex-girlfriend for example, if you call her up and say sorry after 10 years of no contact, I imagine she would likely think that you are making overtures to renew the relationship. It may not be a good idea, depending on her situation now.

I second this, having been through similar doubts, too. Even if you do not come across as making advances, the simple act of contacting a person can "open the door" and stir up all kinds of emotions in her.

You have given a good thought to yourself, your past actions, and have come up with some options of making it up to people. Now though you might want to think REALLY hard on all the possible consequences your actions may have.

Are you prepared to deal with a possible renewal of relationship with your girlfriend -- or is it that you secretly hope that there WILL be a relationship, and in that case are you prepared that nothing will come out of it?

Or with those other people -- are you prepared to a possibility that they are still very mad at you, or simply perceive you as owing them something? And, that they will be determined to make you pay, one way or the other, once you showed up at their lives again. Or may be they totally forgot about it already -- consider, would that make you feel better, do you feel like you need their absolution to feel good about yourself again, and why would you?

And may be, once you analyze all of this and anything else that comes up, using some of the strategies taht others pointed out (icnluding writing things down etc), you will see more clearly whether anything needs to be done.

 

[Beorn]

Hmm yes, I started writing things down about 6 mths ago but stopped. I think it's time to get out the pen and paper again. I think privacy is a big issue. I thought some people may not be interested in talking to me, but I never thought the act of making contact in itself would be an issue, until now.

I've also noticed that this stems from me trying to force things to happen. I mean trying to work out what I have to do and place everything in line so I can do it one by one, rather than trusting my higher self and taking each moment as it comes.

 

[Ca.]

I believe that one thing that can't be changed is the past ....................As i also believe that what is possible is to change ones attitude if one is not comfortale of the past life events ..........its also worth to ask ones self what does one "expect" in this situation in asking or looking for forgivness of past life situations ......... if one has expectations then is sto or sts ...........is the lesson learned in the experience of dissatisfaction of view how one responds to life and then realise that there may have been a better approach and take that change to better one's self for the better ..........?

 

[Beorn]

Ok, I think I'm lying to myself. After saying I want to follow the path of heart I am turning it into an intellectual pursuit. Putting the emotions aside and pretending the internal has nothing to do with the external.

Give me a while to put this together...

 

[The rabbit]

Am I being overly sensitive? Don Juan says follow the path of heart and I want to do that from now on.

Perhaps the most important question to ask yourself is - - - would you really be doing it for them, having no knowledge of where they are in their individual lives and how the past even affected them - or would you be doing it to make yourself feel better? Just a thought - I don't have the answer.

Well i have to reply to Anart´s very wise response here and say that a few years back i thought i was repaying debts as described here and have done more damage than if i had not and now have to live with the consequences as do others. On reflection it seems that i did this to make myself feel better , though at the time i thought it was simply a case of the right thing to do. I never reflected on things before my actions and feel no karmic relief and indeed made things worse all around.

 

[go2]

Ok, I think I'm lying to myself. After saying I want to follow the path of heart I am turning it into an intellectual pursuit. Putting the emotions aside and pretending the internal has nothing to do with the external.

JP, I found your initial post sensitive and thoughtful. Keeping in mind Anart’s caveat, Mouravieff’s following quote gives us some clues on how to determine a course of action, utilizing the intellectual and emotional centers. fwiw…you seem on the right path with respect to making amends.

…..one of the Golden rules of the Tradition: man must link together the work of the intellectual and emotional centres. This is how it is done:

If the question to be studied and solved is of an intellectual nature, then, after the intellectual centre has elucidated it, before reaching a conclusion or final decision, and before taking action, man must consult his emotional centre. Conversely, he must not act impulsively or exclusively under the influence of the emotional centre: before acting, he must consult his intellectual centre.

In general, man must cultivate in himself the ability to grasp any phenomenon and any problem—in the inner or outer worlds—by simultaneously using the two centres, emotional and intellectual.

I have used the amends format of the Twelve Step programs. Many amends cannot be made within Anart’s clear guideline. Amends are restitution for harm done. Amends have nothing to do with making ones self feel good, although this may be a result. One of the first shocks; when I made amends to a woman I had abandoned, without benefit of the insight of this forum, was to realize I can never truly make amends. The past will never be different than it was.

I notice you have two categories of people to whom you are considering making amends. Those whom you are still in contact with and a women who was a long time friend with whom you have lost contact. The friends and family with whom we are in contact are easier in some respects, but often more difficult as the harm is usually more habitual and unremarked.

I now make amends to those people who are in my life today, by choosing a casual and private moment to make a simple acknowledgement of what I have done. Acknowledgement seems most sincere, rather than apology, which often comes off sounding like justification. I ask the person if there is anything they would like to add or if there is anything I can do to right this wrong. People’s reactions have varied from brushing it off, to deep and honest sharing their perception of my behavior in our relationship. It is important to allow the one to whom the amends are being made, to present their view, if they wish, without rebuttal or defense. I have found these relationships with close friends and family are on a new basis, more intimate and honest before. It is amazing how people respond to confession of mistakes and betrayals. It can be very freeing and healing for those we have harmed.

The situation with the childhood friend, whom you abandoned after the dating faux pax is more complex due to the
time elapsed. I think you have the information on this thread and here, to examine your internal motives and the situation involved. I take time to revisit situations where I have harmed someone, over a period of months, as it takes time to understand the nature of the harm I have done, and whether a face to face amend is required to set the situation aright.. This process gets to the heart of external considering and learning the lessons so all the pain and suffering should not be repeated. I always discuss amends with another person, who often is more objective about my life.

I will end with Anart’s post and Alcoholics Anonymous’s amends steps, both of which have deepen my understanding of the spiritual principles of confession and restitution. I have become more sincere in making amends, and in communicating these spiritual principles to others. But most of all, these lessons have changed my self-centered life, to begin considering others and to become part of a community on the basis of love and consideration for others. All the best with your lessons, JP.

Perhaps the most important question to ask yourself is - - - would you really be doing it for them, having no knowledge of where they are in their individual lives and how the past even affected them - or would you be doing it to make yourself feel better?

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

 

[Beorn]

I was going to post this a few days ago but I have been in a dark place. I thought I was going mad and was angry at my Higher Self because every time I did the meditation all I got was more pain. I blubbed my way through the breathing and zoned out for the meditation. When I came back I saw what seemed to be hands clasping in front of me. I felt refreshed, strengthened and safe in the hands of my Higher Self.

There is more to the story. I considered it purely an internal matter and thought I could separate the feelings from the practical. (That's what I told myself anyway). That's what I meant go2 when I said I was lying to myself. The desire for repayment is valid, but there is a whole lot of other content I just pushed to the side.

Things have been building up for a little over a year, with the heat really being turned up over the last two months with the E-E program.

Just over a year ago I had this dream. This is what I recorded:

Suddenly, I am with the girl(lets call her S.) I had a crush on for 10 years. She asked me why I never asked her to dance. I said I didn’t know she wanted me to. She said ‘I did’. We embraced and started dancing. I felt very connected to her, as if she was a soul mate. She said a few things. All I remember is dancing and gazing at her face…

It was the most intense dream I had ever had, and it was only the beginning. The dreams became more intense and now I have them every few days. They are the most profound experiences I have had and consist of a purity I couldn't hope to describe. In one dream we went on a 'honeymoon'. It lasted the entire night. I would wake up for a minute or two, close my eyes and we would be together again!

In a dream last month:
She says to me 'Why did you get rid of me?' I am a bit confused at first and she says again 'Why did you get rid of me?' She doesn't say this angrily but is confused. I realize she thinks I killed her in her last life. I say 'I didn't kill you, we never got married.' She is hurt and shocked that we never got married. I say to her 'We reincarnated in this life so I could show my affection for you.'

Mouravieff's words seem to cut right through me:
[quote author="Gnosis II p199"]
On the other hand, if it(the emotional centre) dreams with the pure and direct aid of
the sexual centre it creates ideal images of its polar being, founded on the
experience of its present life or previous experiences. With the sexual centre's
direct intervention the emotional centre can also create idealized images of
living beings that the man has met, or who resemble his polar being.
In the two latter cases, the positive part of the emotional centre functions
fully and enables a man to meet in his dreams a pure and elevated feeling
which he is incapable of experiencing in his life as an exterior man. According
to their different planes, these dreams can proclaim, predict or
even be prophetic.
This process explains the meaning of the prayer that is recommended to
disciples in which they ask God to permit sleep to become awakening in Life.
[/quote]

I can not describe the intensity of these dreams. Words are a poor substitute. Let me just say that I wake up literally gasping for breath. I have never known such pure love. I'm not even sure such a thing can exist in the physical. The difference between this kind of love and anything I have ever known can leave me weeping for hours. I wrote this in my journal a few days ago:

[quote author=Journal]Some of the dreams with S. have been so intense they leave me gasping. I feel a burning ache in my solar plexus. It is an emotion I am hardly able to grasp. Such intense longing.[/quote]

Mouravieff says that the process of fusion is strictly individual but that
[quote author="Gnosis II p.218]
It can also happen in the wake of any other intense manifestation of true love.
Love, therefore, is the common element in all the processes which lead to positive fusion. In reality it is Love, and Love alone, which sets the heart aflame while it leaves the head cool.
[/quote]

Now he says that that we contain male and female within us, that 'the whole human being is polarized within.' This I can attest to. In fact I woke up once and for a few seconds I was female, in my essence/being anyway. Talk about a shock!

He goes on
[quote author="Gnosis II"]It is only when this observation has become evident to us that we can
make the assertion that every human being carries the image of his polar
being in the depths of his heart, and that we can feel it. In certain conditions
it is even possible to objectify it...Only an infinitely small minority of human beings feel the anguish caused by their inward isolation and ardently aspire to find the Lady of
their dreams. Before one can aspire (to something) one must at least think
(about it). This thought must literally devour the Knight's heart, forcing
him to accomplish the most perilous feats with the aim of finding the object
of his aspirations.
[/quote]

During the meditation, and sometimes randomly throughout the day I feel her presence. After zoning out today I drifted off to sleep and spoke to her in a semi lucid state. She was distressed about meeting. I said 'We must prepare the soil first.'

My hesitation for posting this is because I am married and have a 9 mth old daughter. Without going into any great detail I have always felt she is more like a friend or a sister to me. Before we got married she was being forced to leave the country (visa running out) and go back to a possibly dangerous situation. Her family were not happy she converted to Christianity and she had even had death threats.

At the time we were part of a Christian group which was quite authoritarian and very conservative. The advice I got was 'Don't follow your emotions, they are deceitful. If you work well together go for it.' You could say I felt a little trapped. At times I have blamed her for this and felt some resentment. I am learning to consider her. Especially over the last month or so I am asking the questions 'What is fair for her? What is fair for my daughter?'

I don't want to do what is considerate for others just because I want to advance along the way. I really want to feel for her, that's what the heart is for! I think I am beginning to do this. It's only taken me 30 years. Gosh!

Don't get me wrong, my wife is wonderful. The way she looks after our daughter is amazing, even preparing tiny portions of salmon with 6 or 7 veggies for her dinner! But any feelings for her are overshadowed by S.

I do not know if any of this is manifested in reality or if it is shared in any way, hence the thought that I must be going mad. It could be completely internal, or a way for my Higher Self to get the fire burning. There is a fire in my eyes now I have never seen before.

What I do know is that my dreams with her are becoming more and more intense. We have had an entire relationship in my dreams you understand. I thought Mouravieff was speaking metaphorically when he referred to the female polar being as the 'Lady of their Dreams', now I think he is also speaking literally.

Well... there you have it. That's the emotional content that I thought I could separate from a practical 'How do I repay my debts.'

Most importantly at the moment I think is to ask in this order:
How do I do what is best for my daughter?
How do I do what is best for my wife?
How do I do what is best for others?
How do I gain knowledge/awareness and balance the centres?


JP.