REQUEST FOR HELP

[cubbex]

Hi again rrraven.

After thinking about cubbex's and Ryan's post, I was prompted to review something I read in The Fifth Discipline related to Trevrizent's post here concerning an important difference between dialog and discussion.

Essentially dialog is "a flow of meaning" where the participants are willing to expose the underlying assumptions of their positions (ideas, beliefs, etc.). This is contrasted with 'discussion' which has it's roots with "percussion" and "concussion" - literally a heaving of ideas back and forth in a winner-takes-all competition.

So, in light of this distinction, it appears that there is an easier way to sense if someone may really have "wake up" potential. This would be sort of inferred from the friend's own behavior based on how they want to talk about a subject.

And how they proceed to talk about the subject can let us know when just passing links to information is the most desirable thing to do and when actually having a dialog on some issue would be what the other person wants.

I'm interested in what you and others think about this. :)

Mmm interesting, but hehe I didn't understand so well :P, do you mean that talk the issue just if the person ask you???

thank you everybody for your replies and links for my friend
I m still feeling slightly misunderstood
(problem on my side ,I don't express myself clearly enough or just cant get across what I mean,must be a program since this has been going on for a long time for me,even back in high school i remember writing some essay or something and and feel I have said everything only to find out that I have not)

It would help if you write in paragraphs or something similar, I mean it's kind of hard to my eyes to read your post without loosing the line or confussing what you try to say.

 

[obyvatel]

I m still feeling slightly misunderstood

Hi rraven,
I think the basic dynamic of your interaction with your friend is very familiar for members here. I think many of us here have tried to convince/educate/preach/advise/guide/share/.....(pick your choice of verb here) our friends/family of what we have found through this forum and sott. This is a natural reaction of normal people. Yet it has also been a collective experience that

a) most of the times we get identified with trying to make the other person see our point of view (for their own good off course :))

b) we can only point to the door and unless a person decides to walk towards the door of their own accord it usually does not work.

In this case, you said that your friend reads your sott links of fb and is a fb fan of sott. So she must have visited the sott website. The distance from sott to forum is one click. If for some reason you think your friend may not have noticed it, you could casually state that there are discussions on sott articles between people to be found at the "forum" link present on the sott page - but I do not think you should invite your friend to the forum.

Deciding to seriously read sott and/or this forum on a regular basis is a potentially life-changing decision. And unless a person is ready and has an ardent desire (which may not be conscious or visible from outside) to know the truth, they are unlikely to stick with it - as has been proved many times here. So this decision should ideally be left to the concerned individual without any conscious efforts on our part to weigh their choice. Trying to guide someone who is not ready to the forum could in reality be doing a disservice to him/her. And imo it is very very difficult for any one of us to determine whether someone else is ready (even if he/she shows signs of having "wake-up potential" as you put it).

My 2 cents fwiw

 

[truth seeker]

I m still feeling slightly misunderstood

Perhaps what's really going on is that you're seeing your intentions one way and we are seeing your intentions differently? I understand that your intention is to assist. While I 'think" we here get that, we are also seeing the possible consequences of that intention. Many times, we attempt to do something for others while having the best of intentions. The problem with this is that many times, that intention is really not in the other person's best interests but in out own. We project what we think is best for the other person, but how can we really know? This is where the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' come into play.

in the link I requested help with all I said was ''a must read for all my warming friends''in the headline (of which there are a few amongst my non forum fb friends)and Hetty commented four times in a row I thought
a.she is ''ready'' for some more input/info
b.since comments on links are public and not private like the scrabble chat a chance to network and make good use of fb
c. it may help if she/they hears these things from others than crazy ol me

Hetty's commenting 4 times may not necessarily mean that she is ready for more information. It may mean that a sacred cow of hers came up and she was seeking to hold onto it. I would think that if she was questioning, she would have framed her comments in the form of a question as opposed to statements. That being said, I do see how you could have come to your conclusions as there does seem to be some struggle going on in her second to fourth comments.

For what it's worth, I did have the same thought as you initially in terms of social proofing. At that point, she had only posted the first comment. Because she seemed so sure of her stance, I made the conscious decision to leave it alone. It can be tricky at times to know when and how to present information to others (nevermind navigating our own programs :) )

so is there wish full thinking involved?
is there a personal benefit for me ( or even warm fuzzy feeling) if H or anyone else changes their view on the causes of climate change?
Only in the sense that ,if there is less people believing lies ,its a good thing

I could be totally wrong though or program blinded the fact that I managed to subdue mr pred to write such a(for me ) long post to explain my motives for the starting post could be showing me something I m blind to

These points above are valid and well worth considering. I would say that if you've given her the information and still feel the need to do more that there is more than likely a program at work here.

You may want to consider the part above in bold. Who is it a good thing for? Perhaps you can clarify a bit about that? :)

The last thing I'll underscore that others have said is that that attempt to get others to see as you do can indeed backfire. Think of your friend as a child that is being told to do something they may not want to do or are not ready to do. What often happens? They usually either agree just to get along ("be nice") or they become defensive and back away. If we are all wounded and basically living as children in adult bodies, psychologically speaking, then we will react in the same ways we did as children. Trying to get anyone to do something before they are willing and able to unfortunately results in prolonging their lessons as they are constantly running from what they think their 'supposed' to do.

By us having a bit of patience and letting them come to it in their own time and in their own way, we may find that they will come to it even sooner than we expected. Who knows, in a few months, she may surprise you! :)

 

[Buddy]

Mmm interesting, but hehe I didn't understand so well :P, do you mean that talk the issue just if the person ask you???

Sure. I should think so.

And just to clarify: by dialog as "flow of meaning", I meant that a conversation like this is one where each participant wants to learn something about how the other thinks. It requires external consideration, of course, so that the other person feels safe to expose their thinking with you.

The alternative, is the "discussion" where each person will not go below a certain superficial level, so the logical end result is basically "is not!", "is so!", "is not!", "is so!" :D

 

[cubbex]

:P Duck season! rabbt season! duck season! rabbit season!

So a dialog may be as some psychologist or therapist help its clients.

 

[mkrnhr]

On this particular Global warming subject, i've been in a "facebook confrontation" with a senior scientist who has been giving talks on global warming for years. I tried data, scientific papers, and... nothing. I've been even been insulted by a third person. That was due to the confrontational aspect of trying to convince of something. However, opening doors, and letting people read different views, without interfering in their thoughts or opinions, may help other people. Usually i use humour (to ridicule warmists ) but i also post links to comprehensive text when they contain some common sense. If it makes one think about it, if the person starts to do her own research, that's good. If nobody cares, that's good too. An example of such simple a well written text is for example this one:
_http://www.firstthings.com/article/2011/05/the-truth-about-greenhouse-gases
Of course, one cannot agree with everything (i personally disagree with a few details) but at least in can be a beginning of research for a curious mind.

Edit: I personally do not post a link to this article because the website has a religious connotation that i don't like.