revelations from a goose blind

[ctw5000]

I wonder what triggered this judgmental response.

I am curious what you see judgmental in what I wrote. I do not judge anyone or anything here. It just merely my thoughts and observations on the subject.

Personally, If I would have a choice I would rather kill my food by hand, just for the sake not to disassociate from the act of killing for what it is, what it takes and at what cost it takes to keep my own life sustained.

Animals senses are so much more heightened than ours..When I goose hunt my success rate is like 10% the more geese in the flock the more eyes they have to pick out something that is wrong with the illusion that I have set up (that's a great analogy for the forum!) If one sends a warning they veer off out of range. As far as large game goes you could never get close enough to kill one by hard unless it was tame. Good chance that it could very well kill you antlers are very sharp. I think hunting with a bow would be as close as you are going to get to killing an animal by hand so to speak , even to do this you need masking scents and camo clothing, as well as a tree stand or ground blind. When I goose hunt and wound an animal I am forced to finish the animal by hand, really no other option..I could fire again and ruin the meat(filling it with shot), I could try a head shot but that strikes me as disrespectful. What I did when it happened in my original post was approach the animal and gently stroked it on the back, apologized for the pain I caused, thanked it for helping to sustain my family. Grabbed it by the neck and gave a sharp tuck using its weight and momentum to snap its neck.
Its a very sobering experience, also one that I feel is very important..

 

[Ekios]

Ps : here, a little picture of my shrink ;)

Ekios,

the difference I see with the fish in the aquarium is that you can set it free and give it a more happier live. We used to have goldfish too in a aquarium and when one of them died, we got new ones. on one of those buys a lady in the shop refused us to sell us (my son and I) a new goldfish, telling me they were not made for this kind of life. A goldfish ( as far I can see from the picture you have a goldfish) needs space otherwise it stunts its growth (goldfish can become really tall). In a bulb like on the picture the fish cannot grow and it will stunt and die fairly quickly. My son heard the lady explaining that and when we got home we took the goldfish we still had in the aquarium and brought them to a lake in a nearby woods. It made my son a happy boy to do that.

I think about that everyday ... e-v-e-r-y-d-a-y ...

 

[webglider]

Quote from agni:

Quote from: agni on Today at 02:18:56 PM

Quote from: webglider on Today at 12:42:25 PM

I wonder what triggered this judgmental response.


I am curious what you see judgmental in what I wrote. I do not judge anyone or anything here. It just merely my thoughts and observations on the subject.

I was referring to your reply to Redrock here:

Quote from: Redrock12 on Today at 10:54:32 AM

I too have considered the humaneness of killing and eating a wild animal over eating domesticated animals.
A deer lives its entire life the way it was meant to, grazing on wild grasses and roaming free, unhindered by fences and not confined to a feedlot. The only downside to such a life would be a highly probable slow and painful death by predators. So a quick and relatively painless and unexpected death by a high-powered rifle is, imo, probably a most humane and externally considerate option.
Contrast this with a domesticated cow: subject to castration if it's a male, forced to consume unnatural feed and antibiotics, in many cases up to its knees in its own waste, with the final humility of being herded into a slaughterhouse, with all of its attendant horrors and pain.

quote from agni:
In animal kingdom, with exception of volnurable offsprings, predator usually take out sick animals. And unlike with humans with guns, I think animal has a fair chance to escape predator vs no fair chance to escape from being shot remotely. I would not exactly call killing an animal with a gun to be more humane in comparison with death by natural predators.

I think killing is killing irregardless, and in any case is STS, we - STS live at expense of others lives. I mean, deer eating grass, and grass eating minerals is STS, no ?

Thinking and realizing at what cost we live better be damn pretty good justified :p[/quote]

I could be wrong, but I felt that your response wasn't honoring Redrock12's struggle over the taking of the life of a 2D creature. I didn't understand why you seemed to mock the alternative quick death of a suffering animal comparing Redrock's argument to a rationale that might be made by STS beings.

quote from agni:

I beg to differ. I mean, come on, let me save you from the painful and slwo death by the predator by externally considerately shooting the animal ? I wonder if that's how STS thinks of us: "Let us save humans from the horrors of objective reality." :)

First of all STS enjoys suffering and feeds on it. There was nothing in Redrock's post that indicates enjoyment at watching a fellow creature suffer. Instead, he seems anguished by it and tries to find a way to minimize the suffering by making it shorter. From what I understand of STS, the suffering would be prolonged to extend the enjoyment of it.

I feel that both Redrock's post and ctw5000's are both grappling with the power humans have to create suffering for our fellow inhabitants in our 3D world. I think you are too, agni and that you do care for 2D beings and do not want them to suffer.

It's just the way you expressed your opinion did not seem respectful to me. It's because you began you're post with the words, "I mean, come on, let me save you from the painful and slow death by the predator by externally shooting the animal"

Whenever you say, ... "come on"......it sort of puts the other person on the defensive because it ridicules the other person's position by inserting an extreme example which does not do justice to the other person's argument.

I think Redrock was saying that it would be better to put the animal out of its misery rather to let it live not only in lingering pain but in abject terror as well if a predator came upon it when the animal was too hurt to defend itself or run away. I actually agree that in such a situation it would be merciful to shoot it.

But it's clear in your follow up posts that you really didn't mean to be disrespectful, so maybe it's just my reading of your post that is off, not the post itself. If so, I apologize.

 

[Maat]

Ps : here, a little picture of my shrink ;)

Ekios,

the difference I see with the fish in the aquarium is that you can set it free and give it a more happier live. We used to have goldfish too in a aquarium and when one of them died, we got new ones. on one of those buys a lady in the shop refused us to sell us (my son and I) a new goldfish, telling me they were not made for this kind of life. A goldfish ( as far I can see from the picture you have a goldfish) needs space otherwise it stunts its growth (goldfish can become really tall). In a bulb like on the picture the fish cannot grow and it will stunt and die fairly quickly. My son heard the lady explaining that and when we got home we took the goldfish we still had in the aquarium and brought them to a lake in a nearby woods. It made my son a happy boy to do that.

I think about that everyday ... e-v-e-r-y-d-a-y ...

When i saw your picture, i thought : oh my god doesn't he know that those circular aquarium are the worst for fish, no reference point, just turn round and round... buy at least a rectangular aquarium with some plant and others things in it !

Hum, that's said, having some goldfish at a period, i felt as "guilty" as you and when my ex bought 2 parakeet (? little parrots) in a little circular cage, I felt so sorry for them that I bought a huge rectangular cage. But the feeling was still there ("they would be better free" and so on). It's a feeling I never had with my previous cat that could go on it's own. But when he died and now that I have 2 others cats and a husband that has a totally different take on it : "don't let them go out it's too dangerous", this feeling comes again. Yes it's dangerous, but it's life and obviously, at least one of them really wants to go out. I really don't know what to think about it

 

[agni]

Quote from agni:

Quote from: agni on Today at 02:18:56 PM

Quote from: webglider on Today at 12:42:25 PM

I wonder what triggered this judgmental response.


I am curious what you see judgmental in what I wrote. I do not judge anyone or anything here. It just merely my thoughts and observations on the subject.

I was referring to your reply to Redrock here:

Quote from: Redrock12 on Today at 10:54:32 AM

I too have considered the humaneness of killing and eating a wild animal over eating domesticated animals.
A deer lives its entire life the way it was meant to, grazing on wild grasses and roaming free, unhindered by fences and not confined to a feedlot. The only downside to such a life would be a highly probable slow and painful death by predators. So a quick and relatively painless and unexpected death by a high-powered rifle is, imo, probably a most humane and externally considerate option.
Contrast this with a domesticated cow: subject to castration if it's a male, forced to consume unnatural feed and antibiotics, in many cases up to its knees in its own waste, with the final humility of being herded into a slaughterhouse, with all of its attendant horrors and pain.

quote from agni:
In animal kingdom, with exception of volnurable offsprings, predator usually take out sick animals. And unlike with humans with guns, I think animal has a fair chance to escape predator vs no fair chance to escape from being shot remotely. I would not exactly call killing an animal with a gun to be more humane in comparison with death by natural predators.

I think killing is killing irregardless, and in any case is STS, we - STS live at expense of others lives. I mean, deer eating grass, and grass eating minerals is STS, no ?

Thinking and realizing at what cost we live better be damn pretty good justified :p

I could be wrong, but I felt that your response wasn't honoring Redrock12's struggle over the taking of the life of a 2D creature. I didn't understand why you seemed to mock the alternative quick death of a suffering animal comparing Redrock's argument to a rationale that might be made by STS beings.

quote from agni:

I beg to differ. I mean, come on, let me save you from the painful and slwo death by the predator by externally considerately shooting the animal ? I wonder if that's how STS thinks of us: "Let us save humans from the horrors of objective reality." :)

First of all STS enjoys suffering and feeds on it. There was nothing in Redrock's post that indicates enjoyment at watching a fellow creature suffer. Instead, he seems anguished by it and tries to find a way to minimize the suffering by making it shorter. From what I understand of STS, the suffering would be prolonged to extend the enjoyment of it.

I feel that both Redrock's post and ctw5000's are both grappling with the power humans have to create suffering for our fellow inhabitants in our 3D world. I think you are too, agni and that you do care for 2D beings and do not want them to suffer.

It's just the way you expressed your opinion did not seem respectful to me. It's because you began you're post with the words, "I mean, come on, let me save you from the painful and slow death by the predator by externally shooting the animal"

Whenever you say, ... "come on"......it sort of puts the other person on the defensive because it ridicules the other person's position by inserting an extreme example which does not do justice to the other person's argument.

I think Redrock was saying that it would be better to put the animal out of its misery rather to let it live not only in lingering pain but in abject terror as well if a predator came upon it when the animal was too hurt to defend itself or run away. I actually agree that in such a situation it would be merciful to shoot it.

But it's clear in your follow up posts that you really didn't mean to be disrespectful, so maybe it's just my reading of your post that is off, not the post itself. If so, I apologize.

I think I understand what you are saying webglider. I did not intend to mock anyone. I need to pay more attention on how I say things. Sometimes things make sense in a head, but expressing it in writing more then frequently turns out to be a disaster.

I did not intend to mock or ridicule anyone. But from what you have mention, and re-reading it again, I think I see why it comes across as mocking, insulting and even disrespectful. To me it's rather conceptual thing, rather then personal. Doesn't look that I am very externally considerate to others in that regard.

What I saw in the post was, from my point of view is minimization and rationalization of killing aspect. I got the impression that in the post Redrock pointed out that it is more humane to kill an animal with a gun vs. death by natural predator. My point was that killing is killing regardless of rationalization.

Most likely I am was wrong on this. Perhaps nitpicking without comprehending what Redrock was saying about the subject. Seems like I have an issue with guns and obsession with fairness of play in that field. May be I am idealizing about it little bit too much, but in my opinion guns are not exactly fair play when it comes to hunting, it's seems that it is relatively easy to target and hit an animal from a further distance, then perhaps with a bow or a spear, thus giving it less chance to escape.. I've never done hunting (other than fishing). As ctw5000 points out, it appears that it's not as easy to kill an animal with a gun as I have thought. Of course I do not want anyone to suffer, humans, animals or any living being that is out there.

I apologize to you Redrock if I came mocking, insulting and disrespectful to you. Keep in mind I am just a fool.

And I think you webglider is right on the spot., I did not see certain things before you have pointed it out. I am glad you have called me on this, because otherwise I would not have noticed. I will contemplate more on this.

 

[Maat]

Pushing forward these thoughts (and sorry if I deviate the topic, maybe it could be split) : why do I feel the need to surround myself with plants and animals ? Have I already felt guilty for my plants in pot ? in fact just one time when someone offers me a futur bonzai - I just thought but I can't do all that things, it's like torture !!

Anyway, it's somewhere vital, just because it's life. In a way, I need this connection. I remember when I was very depressed that I let all my plants die and gave litte attention to my cat. Now that I feel better, I just wish to go out of the city with more nature and less concrete, I'd like make some gardening and let the cats get out more safely (of course nothing is 100 % safe). In my understanding, I just crave the Mother Earth connection. But maybe someone will have a different take on it, maybe it's more selfish than I think or any idea...

 

[Muxel]

I am guilty of disturbing squirrels for fun. And the C's said that we are able to feed on the suffering of 2D, which makes me no different from our 4D STS "friends".

To realize our own hypocrisy - that our bodies are wired so that we can comfortably cause suffering to others, and at the same time feel pain when others cause us suffering.