Revolutionary Road

Azur

The Living Force
Kate Winslet - Leonardo Di Caprio

I really don't know what I can write about this movie that would do it justice. The characters and acting are so incredibly well developed and there is so much depth brought to the screen that there's nothing I can say except it is well worth watching.

It captures the angst, the day-to-day little death of contemporary living. It captures this so well, and the wanting to escape from it and the (internal) trials that it brings. The general law and how it keeps it's own in the fold is demonstrated strikingly.

There is one line in the whole movie that was kinda distasteful, i.e. about being a man in the World as the most beautiful thing, but that is not what 99% of the movie is about. Another line that captures most of the movie is: "We all remember the Truth, but we just get better and better at lying".

I highly recommend this film for its depth that shows how so many live now: lives of quiet desperation.
 
Azur said:
Kate Winslet - Leonardo Di Caprio

I really don't know what I can write about this movie that would do it justice. The characters and acting are so incredibly well developed and there is so much depth brought to the screen that there's nothing I can say except it is well worth watching.

This is one of the movies that blew my mind and emotions. So much food for thought, so much suffering out of human being's mechanical nature, as Azur says.

When i rented this DVD a couple of months ago, i really had the impression that i would watch a movie about WWII and how people organized a revolution :-[ Well, it was about war, but the war between control and dominance in relationships, in order to compensate for complexes and to satisfy programs.

I agree that it is a must-see. Casting is of the best i've seen!

*****spoiler*****

Azur, i found Him quite psychopathic, but my friend insists it's how men are in general. Well, her take is sad, because she is known to be attracted to pathological men, but i wonder what's your take on this? Sure, i identified more with Her.

I found her reaction where he tells her of his cheating very honest and powerful. And the "crazy guy"? He could see better than anyone else, but was wrong about his last sentence about Him being that way because of how She makes him feel. I think He was like that, She was just trying to make Him happy. Same old...
 
**** spoiler alert ***** See the movie first if you'd like to discuss it afterward without being colored with comments seen here *****












Alana,

It is a rare gem of a movie, I agree. I think it must have quietly scared a lot of people actually (like the neighbor's wife, in the movie).

Alana said:
Well, it was about war, but the war between control and dominance in relationships, in order to compensate for complexes and to satisfy programs.

I had to think about your comment here for a day, because I had not seen it that way, and wanted to contrast it with what I initially saw. Yes, in the end, when He capitulated, I have to agree there was some kind of pressure brought to bear because He was no longer on board with the plan. Both knew that they could not make it happen individually. Basically, one of the partners quit in the following of the plan. Usurped (fear, programs, ... ?), cold feet, lack of strength, any and all of these. Which left both of them in the exact same spot that they so boldly wanted, and decided, to leave in the first place. He apologized and asked forgiveness in the end, knowing He had capitulated, all the while knowing his partner still felt the same distress that the plan was supposed to alleviate (with un-guaranteed results, and every uncertainty, to boot, which was EXACTLY the whole point). So, insult to injury, He was asking Her for forgiveness for not having the Will to follow through and passively asking her to continue a life of mundane western slavery they both hate in the first place.

She recognized that they were both distraught. He felt it too for both of them, but being caught up in the World, he felt it mostly for himself it looked like, since he was the one on the frontline "fray". And this is where the storyline was fantastic: the plan reversed that! This is not to be under-estimated. The effect of "role" and identification versus being a whole human being navigating the World structure, in partnership or not.

In the end, one had more Will in the partnership. The roles could have easily been exchanged, and the result the same, though. (There is still the issue of a "partnership" being needed at all, but that's outside of the scope here).



Alana said:
*****spoiler*****

Azur, i found Him quite psychopathic, but my friend insists it's how men are in general. Well, her take is sad, because she is known to be attracted to pathological men, but i wonder what's your take on this? Sure, i identified more with Her.

I don't think he was psychopathic at all. Remember his birthday scene, when he comes home to her welcoming after she had decided to "go beyond"? (That was the same day he also broke "convention" in having an affair that he didn't seem to care for). He was crying in shame at the foot of his family showing him love. Maybe he was ashamed at forgetting himself?

(And after that scene, you see him in angst in the shower, seemingly because of what he had done).


Alana said:
I found her reaction where he tells her of his cheating very honest and powerful.

It was very powerful. Especially the part where she says: "What did you think telling me would accomplish?" (paraphrased). She was asking him what it is he was trying to solve internally for himself and using her to do it for him.

Alana said:
And the "crazy guy"? He could see better than anyone else, but was wrong about his last sentence about Him being that way because of how She makes him feel. I think He was like that, She was just trying to make Him happy. Same old...

Yes. The Crazy guy was the "Voice". Uncompromising. That little twist in his otherwise objective dialogue was surprising, but it did seem to be to light a fire underneath him to see if he could come out the other side. He did, somewhat, and understood that he couldn't follow through, but she wasn't to blame. (This was the scene where she ran off into the forest, and he was worried about her after he could not bring her back out, but sat in his house (symbolic shelter against the Universe), drinking, and wringing his hands).

The line he repeated twice was great: "Plenty of people are onto the emptiness, but it takes real guts to see the hopelessness." Of course, that was in context of living the "American Dream". It is understood to mean the Western World, really.

It is one of the best things about this film, things are not black and white.
 
I'll re-use Azur's disclaimer

**** spoiler alert ***** See the movie first if you'd like to discuss it afterward without being colored with comments seen here *****



Azur said:
I don't think he was psychopathic at all. Remember his birthday scene, when he comes home to her welcoming after she had decided to "go beyond"? (That was the same day he also broke "convention" in having an affair that he didn't seem to care for). He was crying in shame at the foot of his family showing him love. Maybe he was ashamed at forgetting himself?

(And after that scene, you see him in angst in the shower, seemingly because of what he had done).

He did try to make Her think that she was crazy though. In that big fight scene He was sick and appeared pathological.
 
**** spoiler alert ***** See the movie first if you'd like to discuss it afterward without being colored with comments seen here *****



Azur said:
I don't think he was psychopathic at all. Remember his birthday scene, when he comes home to her welcoming after she had decided to "go beyond"? (That was the same day he also broke "convention" in having an affair that he didn't seem to care for). He was crying in shame at the foot of his family showing him love. Maybe he was ashamed at forgetting himself?

(And after that scene, you see him in angst in the shower, seemingly because of what he had done).

Alana said:
He did try to make Her think that she was crazy though. In that big fight scene He was sick and appeared pathological.


Yes, that scene was disturbing, seeing how hard he was fighting to go back to sleep. There was some serious internal conflict going on there and he did not want to be reminded about his failure. He wanted it all to "go away" and was trying hard to do so. I agree it was certainly pathological at a minimum.


[post-edit] In that scene where he tries every dirty trick in the book to save some little 'i', you can't help but wonder if he was already pathological or if the seeing beyond an artificial boundary (as they both did) and not being able to overcome it, induced some kind of internal schism: another bigger block that he understood but could not overcome. Either way, the end result was the same.
 
I must say it was one of the best dramas I have ever watched in theater. It reveals how the values imposed by the Control System ruins lives of people.

*****spoiler*****

I think it is important that the movie starts with the scene in which April is depressed because of her failure as an actress and it is that failure which leads her to come up with the Paris plan and when Frank changes his mind, she confesses to Shep:

“For years I thought we shared a secret...that we would be wonderful in the world. I didn't exactly know how, but just the possibility...kept me hoping.
How pathetic is that? To put all your hopes in a promise that was never made? See, Frank knows...he knows what he wants. He's found his place. He's just fine. Married, two kids. It should be enough. It is for him. He's right; we were never special or destined or anything at all.”

So,I think moving to Paris is not only an attempt to escape the emptiness they feel it is also an effort to feel special.They enjoy seeing the faces of people becoming jealous of their escape plan,for example.So,although being a marvelous woman with all her intelligence,charm and sincerity,her “be special program” leads to April's fall as the heroin.

*****spoiler*****


“Be special program” is promoted through various means in all competitive societies and that’s one of the reasons why I like this movie,instead of selling that social conditioning with an achievement story,it in a way shows the outcomes of it.

Of course,the movie has more to offer with other various issues,but I wanted to share this one.

And to some extent,we all suffer from that program,but relatively lucky to know that it IS a program.(May I be feeling special by feeling lucky to know this?: ) It is so easy to be trapped by it and I think many people do not seem to suffer from it since they can satisfy that need to feel special and it must be another trap in this 3D STS world.
 
Actually,I don't know if it is a program. I now regret saying that being so sure of myself. The idea of writing this came to me while I was studying programs, their nature, how I can detect and fight them. Something I read or thought reminded me the concept of a `tragic hero` and I thought that I can interpret tragedies and dramas under the light of `The Work`. Let me give some brief explanation about it for those who aren't familiar with this literary term. It is from Wikipedia:


A tragic hero is the main character in a tragedy. The modern use of the term usually involves the notion that such an hero makes an error in his actions that leads to his or her downfall.

Some common traits characteristic of a tragic hero:

* The hero discovers that his downfall is a result of his own actions, not by things happening to him.
* The hero sees and understands his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.
* The hero learns something from his/her mistake.
* The hero is faced with a serious decision.
* The suffering of the hero is meaningful, because although the suffering is a result of the hero's own volition, it is not wholly deserved and may be cruelly disproportionate.



Maybe trying to interpret the story this way, I oversimplified things, I don't know, and as it is an interpretation it is open to subjective thoughts.
 
Great movie, saw it a bit earlier. It really illustrates what has been mentioned, our own self-importance, our need to fit into society. I watched it with a friend. She has been bitter that she hasn't gotten married yet and had kids. I didn't expect this movie to go deep into the aspect of marriage, but it did. She gave me many thanks for showing her this movie.

spoiler alert

I was originally thinking it went more along the lines of not fitting into society but disassociating into it. In fact, near the end, where she cooks him breakfast, I thought she finally gave up and was going to play her best acting role yet and fit into a role, but that didn't happen.
Yes, her own idea of being special lead to her downfall, though she did have a good idea on how to change things up where she would be the money maker. Sadly, she died because abortion wasn't freely available then. It's also sad that she was originally pressured into having a child in order to give a reason for him to stay and take the promotion. The guy was a good salesman, who didn't show much of an "I". I enjoyed the psychiatric patient's insights and how he explained that shock treatment was ineffective in treating emotional issues, but did manage to erase his PhD.
 
Azur, i found Him quite psychopathic, but my friend insists it's how men are in general. Well, her take is sad, because she is known to be attracted to pathological men, but i wonder what's your take on this? Sure, i identified more with Her.

I found her reaction where he tells her of his cheating very honest and powerful. And the "crazy guy"? He could see better than anyone else, but was wrong about his last sentence about Him being that way because of how She makes him feel. I think He was like that, She was just trying to make Him happy. Same old...
I tried to watch this movie years back and found it too bleak to process at the time. I tried again a couple of days ago, and yes, it amazed me. I hope that means I’ve learned some things!
My take is largely influenced by working through relationship snags with my partner as we both learned more about The Work, as well as (more recently) listening to a discussion between Jonathan Pageau and a woman who wanted to understand as much about “the feminine” as possible through symbology.
I found the script and the acting so very insightful. The opening scene, where they are arguing in and out of the car, sparked memories. It’s not that I’ve experienced “that” fight, but the patterns were clear as day to me.
In terms of relating to one character over another, I don’t think I can at this point. The guy was surely “cluster B” at moments - some gaslighting here, some blame game there, very manipulative.
The thing is, the woman was as well. She just wasn’t overtly violent or aggressive.
Some examples of her cluster B coming through are:

- Her plan for Paris, which she presents as “for him,” but is clearly an attempt to claw out of her own rut. I didn’t take this as a full blown manipulation, but throughout the course of the film, it seems to develop into one.
-She flips back and forth between telling him he’s the most beautiful thing in the world to saying “you were just some boy that made me laugh at a party, and I hate you now.”
- The actual piercing scream outburst during an argument.
- the eerie scene at breakfast the next day, where she is collected, pleasant as ever, and acts like nothing ever happened. The guy looks scared approaching her, and I don’t blame him. Then she delivers the “nicest breakfast he’s ever had” right before she aborts the baby without telling him.

Now, all of that said, I don’t think one character was worse than another. I found their interconnected suffering quite interesting in terms of (as Pageau says) the feminine acting as the frame or space for action, and the masculine fulfilling the action.
In this light, I’m not sure the crazy guy was wrong at all when he indicated She makes Him feel a certain way. I do think she did a lot to try to make Him happy, but I also think he was sincerely trying to make her happy at moments.

The line at the end, where He says to his friend at the hospital, “She did it to herself.”
It is both true and a lie he tells himself.
So well done.
 
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