Romantic Fiction, Reality Shaping and The Work

Neil

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I can't remember the exact session, but it had something to do with westernized men completely quitting relationships with women because it just wasn't worth the trouble. (Something along those lines).

I've actually seen women slapping other women down in social media for being "unrealistic" and they laughed at them for being single because of their long list of demands, which, if reversed, they couldn't satisfy themselves. It's obviously a western disease.

But these are not real thinking women (or men for that matter). It's definitely emotional.
Against my better judgment, I bought 7 Nights in a Rogue's Bed and I'm a little over halfway through it. I think this has a lot to do with it, with STS and STO oriented female sexual fantasies being broadcasted through these novels in a sort of conflicting manner, with the STO energy holding a slight edge. I notice how a lot of the hypergamous attributes that are brought up in Incel circles like was mentioned in the Tomassi material are present in this book. You've got a tall dark man who's rich with muscles big enough to strangle Samson, has a mysterious past and has seen mysterious things, who's also kind of jerk but can be a gentlemen inside, and you are the only woman in the world with the key to his heart of stone able to access the ambrosia inside. You can't really make heads or tales of half the things he does, does he love you or love you not, but he can sweep you off your feet, and his overbearing yet gentle, orcish yet soft, sexuality can totally rock your world. "Oh brother,' I found myself repeating over and over again. This appears to be the "formula" I've heard about when I've encountered such books and discussion of such before, which permutates endlessly with minor variations, I've just never taken the time to actually read one. I guess if I build a big fancy house, subscribe to the WWE workout plan, and parade around town atop a white horse, I will have so many women throwing themselves at me that I actually won't be able to stand the sight of any of them. If I'm emotionally ambivalent and keep the women guessing, all the better. I actually saw a similar spectacle when walking in on my grandma watching an episode of the Bachelor and was just like, "give me a freaking break."

When I first started this book I thought it was stupid. Our "tall dark man" Jonas basically just wants to rape our innocent fair maiden Sidonie, who is blessed with an irresistible voluptuous virility and little else. As the story moved on and some of the nuances were explored beyond the tropes, I could appreciate why Jonas was a jerk, although I still don't like him very much, and Sidonie's determination to try and brighten his life despite his flaws was endearing, I guess because I experienced a shade of that once. I'm not entirely sold on how she goes from his pseudoprostitute to someone he loves, but it's just a (slightly far-fetched) story. I can understand how Jonas is overcome with his sexuality and his emotions once he figures out that she kind of loves him and tries to suppress it for awhile, because I experienced a shade of that once too and did exactly the same thing. The fact that neither one of them wants to be vulnerable hits close to home. For about 40 pages in the middle there I could somewhat relate to Jonas' and to a lesser extent Sidonie's emotional state. Then once we get to the first sex scene it all becomes purely theoretical.

So now my rating is up to mediocre. Bound and determined not to let this book stir my sexuality, despite its attempts to suck me into Jonas' body and experience what he feels, I've been reading it from a detached sociological perspective. I could title my paper "Romancing Your Woman the Right Way: A Literary Survey of Female Erotic Techniques and Fantasies". The last four chapters have been pretty pornographic, albeit with a lot more emotional depth than porn would typically have. The only interesting part out of all of this is the descriptions of the way he caresses and makes love to her. For the most part, his sexual "skills" are the only way he can communicate that he loves her and bridge an inner spiritual world which is difficult for him to articulate. In some convoluted way, this author seems to be trying to convey that sexuality can reflect and transduce spiritual realities. I'm not particularly impressed with this couple, but some of the ideas and "skills" could be extracted from this novel and applied to more "wholesome" situations. I've still got about 150 pages to go so I will withhold final judgement until the end, but so far it hasn't elicited "positive emotional states." It's just been a combination of analysis, curiosity, some sympathy, and "OMG why am I reading this?"

As for whether there is some STO influence behind these novels, I would say yeah, probably. It seems to be a really mixed bag, lots of noise mixed in with the signal, and if you actually want a clear channel you have to dissect, extract, distill, and reconstitute pieces of many such novels into one of your own. In that sense, it could stand as a counterbalance to the postmodernist STS porn world, because alternatives are well-hidden, almost underground really, and I suppose these novels do preserve some vestiges of them. Overall, I probably don't have any business reading this type book because it really doesn't have any practical significance or relevance to my life. It could probably spark some heady discussions if I was in a relationship, though. I also don't have any resonance at all with Downtown Abbey-ish high society stilted etiquette of some of the things set during this time period, it just feels too constrained and contrived even if the emotions are real, but it isn't really a problem with the book I'm reading now.

As for Mary Balogh, I was looking through her books yesterday and the only one that really popped out at me was called Truly, which seems to have a lot going on such that I could probably enjoy the story even if I don't really care for the romance. I don't know yet if I'm going to continue with this genre or not, 7 Nights has me kind of ambivalent. It'll be interesting to see if the Cassiopaeans have any straightforward answers regarding all of this.

I remember Ra saying that male-female is the most effective form of partnership that exists, and while it is interesting to imagine a bunch of people channeling their sexuality after making contact with some higher thought center via these studies in order to bring down creative energies of a higher order into their lives and the surrounding environment, that's probably going off the deep end a bit.
 

Turgon

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The only book I’ve ever read that might be on a similar vein to what’s described here was D.H. Lawrence - Women in Love. Not a typical book I’d normally read but after finishing up Stanton Peele’s Love and Addiction he kept referring to Lawrence’s novel, especially highlighting the differences between the two relationships in the book. Both were written by men so it would be interesting to see how different the takes are than in these romance novels.

I found the first 100 pages a slog and forced myself to read on, mainly because it’s old Victorian English romance of young wealthy couples trying to find love, but wanted to understand why Peele referred to it often so kept at it.

It follows the Brangwen sisters, one a school teacher and the other an artist, that meet two men who are best friends but are very different. Gerald is your typical industrious mans man who is powerful, physically strong, and a captain of industry. But he also can be cold, ruthless, out of touch with his emotions and seeks to conquer women in his relationships. Whereas Birkin, who was modeled after Lawrence himself is more the sensitive, neurotic intellectual who philosophizes about life and agonizes about the questions of his time and is trapped in a relationship with a cruel and domineering woman that he secretly can’t stand.

As each relationship forms, you can see how Ursula and Birkin start off slowly, more as a developing friendship, but eventually come to disagreements with one another on a number of things, each with strong opinions of their own and in a sense calling each other out on what the other means. But they were able to communicate and express their thoughts and feelings even though it was on rocky grounds at times, developed a strong bond and union between each other over time.

Gudrun and Gerald on the other hand had an immediate attraction that was unspoken but palpable. They engage in a game of cat and mouse with one another, giving hints and suggestions but never saying what they really mean or ever truly understanding where the other is coming from. He offers her the material but she isn’t interested in that so their two worlds never meet, him being this man out of touch with himself but driven by a mechanical drive to do while she’s an artist in search of abstract notions of beauty and is a moth to the flame. Theirs is one that ends in tragedy because of it.

I thought Lawrence created complex characters and like the Russian authors, made them contradictory and conflicted, detailing their inner world experience in relation to what is happening in their lives while tackling some deeper philosophical topics. I don't know if Lawrence really exemplifies the idealized romance between Ursula and Birkin that Laura describes from the romance novels, but will find out soon enough! I'll pick up one of the Mary Balogh or Georgette Heyer one's in the next little while and see how it goes.
 

mkrnhr

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Well, I've never read any book like this before, and seeing the different book covers on the net, I was a little reluctant (what if it's a different book but with the same title and author's name??). I just finished Seven Nights and I liked it. In the beginning, I thought I picked the wrong book but as the story and characters developed, it all made sense.
 

Laura

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Well, I've never read any book like this before, and seeing the different book covers on the net, I was a little reluctant (what if it's a different book but with the same title and author's name??). I just finished Seven Nights and I liked it. In the beginning, I thought I picked the wrong book but as the story and characters developed, it all made sense.

Now, read the rest of that series which is all interconnected. You'll see even more.
 

Joe

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Against my better judgment, I bought 7 Nights in a Rogue's Bed and I'm a little over halfway through it. I think this has a lot to do with it, with STS and STO oriented female sexual fantasies being broadcasted through these novels in a sort of conflicting manner, with the STO energy holding a slight edge. I notice how a lot of the hypergamous attributes that are brought up in Incel circles like was mentioned in the Tomassi material are present in this book. You've got a tall dark man who's rich with muscles big enough to strangle Samson, has a mysterious past and has seen mysterious things, who's also kind of jerk but can be a gentlemen inside, and you are the only woman in the world with the key to his heart of stone able to access the ambrosia inside. You can't really make heads or tales of half the things he does, does he love you or love you not, but he can sweep you off your feet, and his overbearing yet gentle, orcish yet soft, sexuality can totally rock your world. "Oh brother,' I found myself repeating over and over again. This appears to be the "formula" I've heard about when I've encountered such books and discussion of such before, which permutates endlessly with minor variations, I've just never taken the time to actually read one. I guess if I build a big fancy house, subscribe to the WWE workout plan, and parade around town atop a white horse, I will have so many women throwing themselves at me that I actually won't be able to stand the sight of any of them. If I'm emotionally ambivalent and keep the women guessing, all the better. I actually saw a similar spectacle when walking in on my grandma watching an episode of the Bachelor and was just like, "give me a freaking break."

When I first started this book I thought it was stupid. Our "tall dark man" Jonas basically just wants to rape our innocent fair maiden Sidonie, who is blessed with an irresistible voluptuous virility and little else. As the story moved on and some of the nuances were explored beyond the tropes, I could appreciate why Jonas was a jerk, although I still don't like him very much, and Sidonie's determination to try and brighten his life despite his flaws was endearing, I guess because I experienced a shade of that once. I'm not entirely sold on how she goes from his pseudoprostitute to someone he loves, but it's just a (slightly far-fetched) story. I can understand how Jonas is overcome with his sexuality and his emotions once he figures out that she kind of loves him and tries to suppress it for awhile, because I experienced a shade of that once too and did exactly the same thing. The fact that neither one of them wants to be vulnerable hits close to home. For about 40 pages in the middle there I could somewhat relate to Jonas' and to a lesser extent Sidonie's emotional state. Then once we get to the first sex scene it all becomes purely theoretical.

So now my rating is up to mediocre. Bound and determined not to let this book stir my sexuality, despite its attempts to suck me into Jonas' body and experience what he feels, I've been reading it from a detached sociological perspective. I could title my paper "Romancing Your Woman the Right Way: A Literary Survey of Female Erotic Techniques and Fantasies". The last four chapters have been pretty pornographic, albeit with a lot more emotional depth than porn would typically have. The only interesting part out of all of this is the descriptions of the way he caresses and makes love to her. For the most part, his sexual "skills" are the only way he can communicate that he loves her and bridge an inner spiritual world which is difficult for him to articulate. In some convoluted way, this author seems to be trying to convey that sexuality can reflect and transduce spiritual realities. I'm not particularly impressed with this couple, but some of the ideas and "skills" could be extracted from this novel and applied to more "wholesome" situations. I've still got about 150 pages to go so I will withhold final judgement until the end, but so far it hasn't elicited "positive emotional states." It's just been a combination of analysis, curiosity, some sympathy, and "OMG why am I reading this?"

I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on it, but that was a pretty hilarious review! :lol: I think I'll have to read it now!
 

Renaissance

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I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on it, but that was a pretty hilarious review! :lol: I think I'll have to read it now!

Agreed, it was pretty funny!

"Bound and determined not to let this book stir my sexuality" "Irresistable voluptuous virility"

Maybe you might take it up to write one of these things yourself!
 
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Neil

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I'm summarizing a lot from a male point of view, but the first third or so of the book is like, "and this is why I don't read this crap." The author really understands what guys look at, and Jonas is mentally kind of a lowest common denominator type of guy, at least in the beginning, and I really had to hold my nose at first. It's starting to get more serious now, and also a lot steamier, and I think I can start to discern what Laura was talking about, but it still has a ways to go. It's not really fair to review it halfway through, but I think the first part of the story, up until they start to fall for each other, is most survivable with a flippant attitude towards the whole thing, keeping in the back of one's mind that it will come to a point, eventually.
 

ryu

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So. I have bought and read "the madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie". I often wondered at myself what I was doing with my life while reading the first chapters (btw the book cover is so over the top🤦🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️), and then I got into the story and couldn't put it down.

I am with @Neil on the stereotypes parts (tall, mysterious, handsome, (and rich!)guy with young beautiful and strong woman with a tragic past), you know after 15 pages that these two are going to get together. This book checks all the romantic tropes I could think of. Some of the dialogues are über cheezy, I tried to picture myself saying some of the quotes to a man and bursted out laughing (or maybe I am not the romantic type😂)

What is positive about this story is that the relationship between the two main protagonists is based on mutual respect, (blunt) honesty, the female lead is a person in her own right, she is able to take her own decisions and takes accountability for her actions, even when they don't fall in line with what is expected of women.

The two are endearing together, and become better people as the story progress. The other characters are also well fleshed out.

So yeah, I can definitly see the appeal and let's be frank, this story depicts the kind of relationship every sane human being would want, the kind where you find someone worth fighting and dying for.

Cheezyness aside, I think it's a good story and makes you want to emulate the care, the honesty with which the characters are treating each other and themselves. It makes you think of what you would do, how you would react in this or that situation, if you would treat yourself and your beloved with the same integrity, patience and love. Kudos for that.

The danger I see, is that surch books can give you unrealistic expectations about relationships, at least, as we are now in out post-modern culture. It's a lot of pressure on men and there is only so many lords and princes..

It's what you take out of it, I think, which makes the difference between an" STS or STO reading". Do you focus solely on the status, the regalia that comes with the marriage, or do you primarly see what you can bring to the other, how you two can grow to build a lasting relationship.

It pains me to admit it...but I'll probably read the rest of the saga.🥺

My two cents.
 

Laura

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Y'all keep in mind the likely audience that these books are written for; clearly not intellectual snobs. So yeah, lots of tropes and cliches and in some cases, even rather awkward writing. But in the end, what interests me is the fact that certain values and principles and ethics are conveyed rather strongly, utilizing the "bait" of a bit of titillation. Plus, some of the stories are just darned good and rousing.

You have to read a sufficient number of them to get the full impact of what is being done here and to get a full grasp of the whole worldview that is being presented. When it began to dawn on me, I was just somewhat amazed. It goes totally against the whole post-modernist, socialist, libtard view of reality. Like 180 degrees, in fact.

So, keep reading and report back.
 

Keit

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I prefer reading fiction books in Russian. The flow and the impact of the narrative is better this way. At least in my case. So I tried looking for authors that were mentioned in the first post, and couldn't find any in Russian. But I did find Mary Balogh, and already downloaded her books and will give it a read.

Apparently, and not surprising really, that Russian ladies read romance novels written in English as well (and translated into Russian). :-) And there are sites full of these books, including ratings and detailed comments. :-D

Here are links, for example when I looked for Mary Balogh:

 

gnosisxsophia

Jedi Council Member
...let's be frank, this story depicts the kind of relationship every sane human being would want, the kind where you find someone worth fighting and dying for.


Amen :love:

Although long possessed of minimal regard for my own well being and having lusted for relief from 'here' since childhood, I'd also merrily fight and die to save much of my family, select friends, a helpless innocent... a puppy I was particularly fond of - truth be told.

The kind of relationship warranting sacrifice of 'Promethean' proportions, on the other hand... now wouldn't that be something.


I remember Ra saying that male-female is the most effective form of partnership that exists, and while it is interesting to imagine a bunch of people channeling their sexuality after making contact with some higher thought center via these studies in order to bring down creative energies of a higher order into their lives and the surrounding environment, that's probably going off the deep end a bit.


'Interesting' indeed, funny that Mouravieff seems to have been pretty keen on the specific subject too?

Also having recently reread 'High Strangeness' (3rd or 4th time...) it does strike as notable that Laura chose to begin this thread at this moment in time - because it continues to intrigue that discussion of 'Love', 'Romance' and 'Polar Couples' happened to find their way into that book??


Today, as in the time of the emergence of the Grail Stories, Courtly Love remains, by definition, the indispensable condition for the success of the Polar Couple who aspire to the vivifying Love of the Higher
Realms, the objective of the Quest for the Holy Grail. Then, and only then, can the Seeker gain access to the Ancient Secret Technology which includes mastery of Space and Time and Matter: The Philosopher’s Stone: Ascension.
I have become One: Creator of worlds.


Figure there must be a reason :-)
 

Siberia

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I've read about 2/3 of Indescreet by Mary Balogh now.

On the one hand, it has been a bit of a torture to read the book: the story itself is trivial and stereotyped, plus at least half of the book consists of unsubtle descriptions of the main characters' explicit thoughts, emotions and fantasies.

On the other hand, there is certainly a valuable source for reflection in the book. The author describes the real environment where people have to make difficult choices. The book shows how easily one can fall in a trap of one's emotions and passions and ruin one's life and how much restraint it takes to avoid it. The psychological portraits of the characters are also quite accurate and honest, I think.

I need to read more books on the list to have a broader view.
 

Zar

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I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on it, but that was a pretty hilarious review! :lol: I think I'll have to read it now!

:lol: Agreed, that was a hilarious review. I was thinking along the exact same lines of what @Neil wrote but only for the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the book. I found myself taking a massive relieving breath around 1/3 of the way when they finally decided to communicate/connect instead of the constant heightened-emotional-mind-numbing passion they were both experiencing from every glance/touch/word they used. I'm just half way through the book, on the chapter where the sex begins, and honestly I'm having a hard time putting the book down. I woke up at 4am thinking about the character dynamics and since I can't sleep I'll write some thoughts without giving away much spoilers.

While I was reading and looking at the characters dynamics part of me was thinking that this was unrealistic because it seemed like there was an element of love/attraction at the soul level(and who's ever going to find their true love). But thinking about it deeper I'm beginning to think that this may not necessarily be the case/may not actually matter because the appeal (for me at least) of this story/characters isn't necessarily about the romance(I know, it's a romantic novel so what the heck am I talking about). Well I remember JP saying something along the lines of; If you work towards becoming the best version of yourself, you will become a light in the world. But while you may shine brilliantly it will become difficult for people close to you(especially in intimate relationships) to be able to handle your light(external consideration really helps here, me thinks). This is one aspect of the characters that really stood out for me; I found myself captivated by the relentless self struggle of one of the main characters (Sidonae) and the effect that she was having on Jonas because she chose to live virtuously. And at some level Jonas could not taint her, but instead found himself reciprocating that light as a part of him responded to it. It's like she was adept at fighting her demons, and he identified with being a demon so a struggle was played out as much between them as within themselves. And it seems born out of this dynamics is authentic love for each other and from within each other, and this love transforms them into better STO version of themselves(or at least it's beginning to). I've still got half the book to read so we'll see how this progresses, but this is written very well and the character dynamics are very fascinating and deep.
 

3DStudent

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I think I'll give this a go, but as audiobooks. So I will try Audible. It looks like there is something called Audible Escape, which gives unlimited romance audiobooks access. I'd have to convert them to mp3, because I want to speed them up to about 1.5x and listen with an old iPod.
 

Laura

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Well, I regret to inform everyone that, as he proceeded through the book, Ark fell out of charity with Jonas and thought that he was behaving in a very un-manly way. He liked Jonas after he released Sidonie, and they then came together with free will on both sides. But, after Sidonie went to Jonas at the prison, and Jonas banished her, he fell quite out of favor. And, for Ark, it only got worse. He thinks that Jonas should have taken more consideration of Sidonie's fears and forgiven her right away. He also was outraged at the way Jonas talked to Sidonie on the way to the church to get married.

I, on the other hand, have a lot of sympathy for Jonas and why he felt and acted the way he did. He had suffered terribly, and for a long time. I sometimes found Sidonie quite irritating and really, to my way of thinking, what she did to Jonas was rather horrible and her justification was rather weak and poorly thought out.

At the end, Ark pointed out that Jonas could so easily have destroyed both their lives with his unforgiving attitude and that it was only Sidonie's stubbornness that saved the day and ensured that true love triumphed.

Ark said he enjoyed the book more than the Jack Reacher series of books; he now has the second volume to start tonight. "A Rake's Midnight Kiss".
 
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