Rvew: Golden Light Fleet, Jean Michel Surmely & Unified Ashtar Command

[CarpeDiem]

ABOUT THE CHANNEL, AUTHOR, or SITE:
Golden Light Fleet site http:/(/www.starshiplight.com; http:/(/www.goldenlight-fleet.com
Channel: Captain Lyur [Jean Michel Surmely] - a journalist, writer, speaker, member of the French free journalists and writers Association, member of the French photographers reporters cameramen and moviemakers Association. Born in France in 1947, Jean Michel was contacted by a large UFO when he was 18 and claimed being a star person, a volunteer from the Galactic Confederation and a crew member of the Intergalactic/ Interdimensional Fleet commanded by Ashtar and Sananda (Jesus). Dissociates himself from “fake� Ashtar command channelings. Lightworker of "Golden Light of Christ", Archangel Michael and the Sword of Truth.
French Document "Découvertes sur les sectes et les religions n° 41" lists Jean -Michel Surmely as a founder of a religious Scientology sect “Lumiere doree� (Golden Light) (the famous GEMPPI list of 172) http://www.info-sectes.org/pages/sos.htm#gemppi

General impression: reader entrainment with mishmash “salad shooter Metaphysics� , lulling into meditative submissiveness, with emphasis on “meditation, understanding and reaching inner peace� , channel suffers from abundance of grammar errors, site set up in one day and not updated, no comments or analysis of events given whatsoever. Target audience likely are 12-16 year old, non-critical minded persons. Having in mind that mental age of average American is 12-year old, site could drive inasmuch “adults� .

Channeling method is a telepathic communication, so-called sub-space communication

Channelers:
Principal channeler is Cdr Lyur (Jean Michel Surmely)

References given to 1950-th early contactees:
Daniel Fry – http://www.danielfry.com
George Van Tassel -
From wiki: A contactee, UFO enthusiast and religious cult leader Van Tassel became an aircraft mechanic and flight inspector who at various times between 1930 and 1947 worked for Douglas Aircraft, Howard Hughes and Lockheed. Van Tassel's now-rare book, I Rode a Flying Saucer, recounts some of the cosmic wisdom he received from "Solgonda" and a large number of other god-like Space Brothers. Like most 1950s contactees, he founded a religious cult not one, but two related ones, The Ministry of Universal Wisdom, and The College of Universal Wisdom, to codify the spiritual revelations he was now continually receiving via "psychic resonance" with the Space Brothers. An offshoot of one of his cults still survives today, in greatly "evolved" and "unauthorized" form, as The Ashtar Command. In 1958 Van Tassel commenced building of Integratron, a supposedly domed time/energy machine built partially upon the theories of Nikola Tesla.
Richard T. Miller -
Richard Miller’s contacts continued for over twenty years, all meticulously recorded in a library of writings and tape recordings. His most famous book is Star Wards and the organization he founded is known as Solar Cross , in San Jose California, although they have currently retired from public activity.

Howard Menger -
from wiki: Howard Menger is an American Contactee who claimed to have met extraterrestrials throughout the course of his life, meetings which were the subject of books he wrote, such as From Outer Space To You and The High Bridge Incident. Menger, who rose to prominence as a charismatic contactee detailing his chats with friendly Adamski-style Venusian "space brothers" in the late 1950s, has been widely dismissed as a charlatan who simply jumped on the bandwagon in the wake of publicity following publication of George Adamski's wild stories of chit-chatting with Nordic-looking spacemen, and during at least one live TV appearance he admitted as much.

George Adamski -
From wiki: a Polish-born American who claimed to have seen and photographed ships from other planets, met people from other planets (whom he called Space Brothers), and to have gone on flights with them. He wrote several books relating to his experiences, including the best-selling Flying Saucers Have Landed (1953), co-written with Desmond Leslie. He enjoyed some popularity as perhaps the most prominent contactee, but this gradually diminished as his claims became more questionable, and by the time of his death public opinion had turned against him.
The Turtle woman: Checking for truth. Personal story by Turtle Woman - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/starnations/message/3331

Do you want the ships now, do you want to ascend now? Prepare yourself to receive whatever it comes, then. It could be our space brothers coming in incognito to pick us up for the first wave of ascension, or it could be someone else, in incognito or public. But I really doubt that our space brothers will come before it will be stricly necessary, they are there, but they are probably waiting for the real dramatic earth changes to start before they come, either it be economic collapse with dictato-ship, new religion, and/or physical earth disasters. Golden Love Anna

Alora Sky

-- Format of channeled information is not clear. Alora Sky claims to channel the internal Christ consciousness, the 5-th heart chakra as the Christ consciousness is the mark of the fifth density (from http:/(/nineoneone.nl/Documents/doc/Compilation%20NEWSL%20French.doc).

-- How long has the channel been doing it, how did they start, do they channel multiple entities?
Most of channels are transmitting space brothers info since 1950-th. Jean-Michel Surmely is "permanently hooked-up with the Star Lightships "Crystal Bell", "Light", and "Janus", which are "anchoring Golden Light Christ Consciousness Ships" from the Interdimensional, Intergalactic Fleet" since 1980.

-- Does the channel comment on the material, research it, etc.?
There is no material for a conscious reader except for mishmash salad of YCYOR terms, designed to hook unmature uncritical audience.
To give an example their method to determine the Truth in messages is:

This simple technique for determining Truth …has nothing to do with religion, so it does not matter if you are of any particular persuasion, lineage, or belief. It works with the Christ Power (the right hand Golden Light of God) and Archangel Michael. …Belief/desires can interfere with or cause deception (dark side) with obtaining the Truth. As a result, a specific affirmation is stated before the muscle test to ensure that the results are accurate and correct.
How To Self Muscle Test: The actual technique is a simple self muscle test using the index finger on your right hand and pushing down on that finger with your left hand after asking your question. Questions must be asked in a manner that they can be answered yes or no. If the right index finger is strong and does not release when pushed down on, then the answer is yes. If the right index finger is weak and cannot resist your pushing down on it, then the answer is no. The process of getting the correct answer involves a few steps at the beginning with specific verbiage to prevent interference with or deception of the Truth.
…We offer them no concrete proof, as they have a way of expressing it. We offer them Truth. This is an important function of our mission–to offer Truth without proof. In this way, the motivation will, in each and every case, come from within the individual. In this way, the individual vibratory rate will be increased. An offering of proof or an impressing of this Truth upon an individual in such a way that he would be forced to accept it would have no usable effect upon his vibratory rate.

Raising of mass consciousness of the people is reached

mechanically by means of mental capsulation, and machines. Mental capsulation can be projected by sound, color, vibration. A high-frequency sound can be a mental capsulation; a song or a selction of music can be a mental capsulation. Music in the form of a mental capsulation helps push certain buttons in the mind and releases something which there. However, because of the way we eat, think, and act on this third-dimensional planet, this knowingness is held dormant, sometimes through several lifetimes. Nevertheless, God’s laws shall prevail, and those who are due this release toward an awareness will have it when the time in the cycle of expression of this planet is ripe. The machines which send out super-sonic high frequency sounds usa a man’s body as a terminal in conjunction with the mental capsulation. There are three terminal bodies in each state. The machines nor operate on a silent carrier wave.

-- Does the channel sell the material or offer other products or services associated with their channeling ability?
Various “shields� (personal, for in- and outside the home) for protection against attacks of disincarnate beings on lightworkers; protection medallion of extraterrestrial origin for 200 bucks; personal "Golden Starquest" readings for 152 Euro each, where you will discover your galactic lineage; UFO detectors for big bucks; internet classes of Galactic Confederation; audiomaterials.

-- Are there any other clues that indicate a relationship to or influence by other channels, groups, organizations, etc.?
Challelings heavily influenced by Melchizedek teachings (white brotherhood, activation of Earth grid, sacred geometry, merkabah activation, empowering pyramids and the stuff).
Jean-Michel Surmely has been co-speaker in many Egyptophilic lectures together with J.J.Hurtak, Al Bielek, Chris Criscom, Fred Bell, Stanton Friedman, Sixto Paz, Zecharia Sitchin, Randolph Winters, Edith Fiore, Jerry Wills and has been in charge of the German delegation for the opening of the Doorway of the 11:11 in Egypt with friend and speaker Virgil Armstrong and conducted a ceremony for that group in the Great Pyramid.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stargate.htm
What is of most compelling interest is the information on Andrija Puharich and the possibility that there was a "program" in effect for a long time designed to teach very psychic kids to learn to "project" thoughts into the minds of others so as to convince them that they were channeling extraterrestrials. This is also something of which we are aware, only it was very recently that we were apprised of Puharich's possible role in such activity. The Cassiopaeans very clearly told us that there was an "army of psychic projectors" which they designated as "Thor's Pantheum," which was being used to influence individuals in positions of power and in the creative arts so as to have them produce books, movies, television shows and series - all with an agenda in mind: the same agenda identified by Picknett and Prince.
P & P go on to describe their research findings - how various channels, researchers, writers, and other individuals of some influence in the subject - have had CIA connections, and all seem to circle around the same "circle." Circles within circles indeed! And quite a few of them have impinged on our lives as well - generally quite negatively. For a long time, we thought it was simply because we were "strange" and involved with such an "off the wall" thing as channeling. Now we realize that most of them were also involved with channeled messages - of a very different sort. And it is most definitely clear after reading the excerpts of some of this material as dug up by P & P, as well as learning about the backgrounds and connections of these individuals, why our work has been marginalized and discounted by these very same people with their own "channeled" agenda.
In fact, the reader may be rather surprised to discover just who's on first in this one! People you would never guess to have any connection to "weirdness" such as channeling, apparently do - including high government officials. (We aren't going to tell - you have to read the book!)
In the end, however, P & P bring it home to the channeling of The Council of Nine, connecting it to Andrija Puharich, James Hurtak and his Keys of Enoch, mind programming projects such as MKULTRA, Enochian Magick as promulgated by MacGregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley, possible political manipulations of R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz, various orders of "Melchizidek," and "Guardians" of various extraterrestrial sources, including Ashtar, Sananda, and so on. They make a powerful and convincing case.[…] My my! Doesn't the plot get thicker! The famous Dr. Hurtak and his magical Keys of Enoch! And here he is connected up with SRI and remote viewing and CIA types and the promotion of the idea of the face on Mars having been left there by a "Martian civilization." Strange bedfellows if you ask me. The reader will probably be very interested to discover the strange connections between Dr. Hurtak, Richard Hoagland, Col. Tom Bearden, Gene Roddenberry and a host of players too interesting and numerous to mention.

Book Authors

Jean Michel Surmely(Cmdr.Lyur) in his UFO Golden Light Lecture in in Hot Springs, AR stated that he has authored 5 books about the Spiritual Program of the Star Brothers (http:/(/inamidst.com/lights/group/0412). Info on books is irretrievable.

Fred Streckling, the head of the George Adamski foundation, wrote a book about the moon, with many NASA photos of spaceships on the moon, dome and bases, and some photos even show. an atmosphere. Info on book is irretrievable.
Star Wards: Welcome Home Earthman by Richard T. Miller, Library of New Atlantis, 1979

Flying Saucers Have Landed by D. Leslie and G. Adamski, Elsevier Science, 1973
Review:
Marcel F. Homet, author of: Sons of the Sun, 1963 and Die Söhne der Sonne, 1972 (Flying Saucer Review): “I read Adamski’s book (containing the symbols) before the publication of my own book and was surprised to find the same symbols, but in another order.�
Basil van den Berg, Interpreting The Symbols, Johannesburg, South Africa: “Prior to reading his book (Flying Saucers Have Landed) my interest in flying saucers was nil… what did arouse my interest was the amazing similarity between Mr. Adamski’s photograph of a scout-ship published in his book and a strange object that trailed my bomber for three hours during the last war. I worked for many months on the symbols, trying by every possible means to connect them in some way with a tangible solution. I was on my guard as to whether this was a clever hoax… or really symbols given to him by beings from another planet. I .. asked for clear prints of the symbols… and settled down to the arduous task of gleaning the information from them. As the years passed more information was revealed.. the method of propulsion, as well as two powerful magnetic motors, … not yet invented on earth … these findings have borne practical proof of Mr. Adamski’s genuineness and of space craft from planets other than earth.�

From Outer Space By Howard Menger, Pyramid Books, 1967

"He Walked the Americas" By L Taylor Hansen, Legend Press
Reviews:
Rev. Dr. Robert Ghost Wolf: "We are the Ancients, and our skin is red: with us, the Sacred Color. These are our legends told about the campfires on winter's evenings. When you string them together, remember our great pride. Now we are looking down and our feathers are drooping. Tell the legends so that our young men will realize that the ancestor threads run in many directions. Through the tribes we have captured and with whom we have intermarried there is a red thread which runs back to the Red Land long sunken in the Destruction. There is a thread which runs far to the south where the mountain tops touch the sky and the Thunder Bird moves through the lightning’s. There is a golden thread which touches Tollan, The Mighty, and beautiful Tula, while through some of our mothers there is a white thread to the words of The Prophet. Tell my young men to listen."

Asa Delugie, War Chief of the Mescallero Apaches: "This is our book. May you write it in beauty as we have told it in beauty."

Zeahley Tso, Chief of the Navajo. There is evidence that some of our ancestors may have come from the ancient trading empire of Chan Chan centuries before the rise of the Incan Power in Peru. Tell my people to learn of this great power which once ruled eyes. Tell them to look up and learn."

-- Can you tell if they have a "major" publisher?
Flying Saucers Have Landed by D. Leslie and G. Adamski, Elsevier Science
-- What are reviews of their books like? Are there reviews on sites that promote a certain point of view, theory, prophecy, etc."
Promotion of idea that space brothers come in love and compassion for us, to help us to help ourselves to reach a higher understandin of life and its meaning, space brothers are not hostile but come in love and service to the Infinite Father.

-- Do they have a web site? What's on it?
www.starshiplight.com
http://www.goldenlight-fleet.com
Golden Light the worldwide council of the U - AC (Unified Ashtar Command)
Poorly designed sites with metaphysical salad and message to pray, to meditate, to take care of personal evolution and protection through daily meditation, connecting to the Source, bathing in the Golden Light and specifically visualize the Earth surrounded by Golden Light and a golden shield.
Internet lists and forums of the U-AC :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SpaceBrothers/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/starshipLight/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/starnations/
http://groups.msn.com/InTouchGalacticFederation
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AshtarConfederacionGalactica/ - in Spanish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ashtarlichtteam/- in Dutch
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ashtarconfederationgalactique/ - in Russian :
cptnlyur@earthlink.net - in French :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AshtarCommandFrance/ - in French
http://fantastiquephoenix.free.fr/ashtar/starseed1.htm - in French
http://fantastiquephoenix.free.fr/index.htm - in French

-- Does the person appear to be a serious researcher or just a promoter of some point of view?
Presented info promotes STS idea that only certain, pre-chosen people attuned to right frequency are capable to receive messages from space brothers and only they will be part of the revelations to come.

Q: What is the source of this kind of material? What kind of energy is behind it?
A: STS mind control signal.
Q: What is it designed to do?
A: Reach those that are programmed to receive.
Q: Let me ask you this: if some of these STS programming signals that are going out, I mean, I'm assuming some of them come from 3rd density, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do they actually have, like, some place on the planet where these guys sit around and read science fiction books and get these really crazy theories and stories that they assemble with some sort of fiendish glee, and then convert them via computer into the programming signal code that gets beamed out into people's heads, while the guys who are making up all the space brothers scenarios in some secret military base or whatever, just fall down on the floor laughing at what they have just done? That people will believe anything? Is this possibly something that is going on?
A: Yes.
Q: That's sick. (A) Well, if you had their agenda, wouldn't you do it? (L) If I was as sick as those puppies, and had the money and facilities, yeah - I guess that's what they are doing. They have probably taken whole H. P. Lovecraft novels, converted them to programming signals, and beamed 'em out for the New Age crowd to channel and believe! And then they say "My God! The space brothers or guardian alliance told me! It's just like Lovecraft said! He must have been a prophet! Oh my God! Can you imagine?" (A) But it works. (L) It sure does.(A) You see, what this guy R___ is telling us about, the musician who is working on laser light shows in conjunction with certain music, is that it is capable of inducing prolonged altered states of consciousness, and that it will be used for massive, grand scale programming via the entertainment arts. He's telling us about another phase of the program. And it's coming pretty soon, according to him.

-- Are there links on the site to other known people or groups? Who?
http://www.geocities.com/lubamgo/violetflame/u-ac/ - Worldwide Council of the Unified Ashtar Command
http://starshiplight.com/
http://fantastiquephoenix.free.fr/ashtar/voygalactique1.htm
www.channeling.net/LyurAC
http://www.lightvoyager.com/ACCclassifieds/directory5.html - Ashtar Command Communications
http://www.luisprada.com/Protected/ashtar_command_mission.htm

-- Does there appear to be an organization behind the site?
STS control system

ABOUT THE MATERIAL ITSELF:
Most important:
-- What is the central message(s), if any? This will usually be repeated often.
The central all-pervading message is that goals of Etheric Angels – Watchers – Guardians - space brothers are assisting earthlings to ascend and live in peace and harmony; to make easier the displacement of the beings who are intended to be evacuated towards other worlds and temporal zones; to participate in the awakening of the remaining population on the Earth; levitation plans for ascension of those starseeds ready to receive the message and who have “right� vibrational frequency, urgence to make the choice of love and understanding, based on one’s rate of vibration
Chahhel uses hierarchy-oriented language, control, treating earthlings audience as a group of undereducated youth, kids: according to Light Fleet a man “has lost this because he has focused his attention upon devices and inventions of his own. He has become hypnotized by his playthings and his ideas. He is but a child in his mind.�
Lulling a reader into submissiveness: “Be ready and not in fear about all that you are going to see and feel, you belong to the grand cosmic family, where all is unity, where nothing is separated.�
Goal – achieving understanding of goals in this incarnation, learning lessons to “ascend to 5D� .
YCYOR message: “Even if the universe for those around you remains disharmonious and difficult, if your mind is stayed upon the unity of the Creator, your own universe will become harmonious, and this is not by your doing but by the simple love of the Creator. …Be ready and not in fear about all that you are going to see and feel, you belong to the grand cosmic family, where all is unity, where nothing is separated.�

-- Does the material agree in large part with the work of known others?
Other YCYOR groups

-- Does it suggest that you actually DO something (particularly with channeled messages)? What?
Message does suggest daily meditation and being all the time in semi-meditative state in order to reach understanding one’s purpose in this incarnation and learning to forgive past injustice and to forgive the unforgivable. Idea of appreciation of reality through the process of meditation instead of Working is promulgated.

to depend on meditation of a formal kind, then to attempt a semi-meditative state at all times, and by this, we mean simply to achieve a state of attention so that your destructive impulses are not free to clog your mind completely and keep you from learning the lessons you came to learn. Meditate upon the complete unity of yourself and all that you see. Do this not once, and not simply in present circumstances, but at all times, and especially in difficult circumstances. For insofar as you love and feel at one with those things which are difficult for you, to that extent will those circumstances be alleviated. Feed your faith and your understanding through meditation. The further that you go along this path, my friends, the more meaningful you will find this simple statement: meditate. You are to serve your fellow man, and, therefore, it is necessary that you prepare yourselves for this service. This of course, my friends, is done in meditation. We cannot over-emphasize the importance of meditation. Through this technique you will receive answers to all of your questions. It is difficult to realize this, but this is true. All of your questions can be reduced to an extremely simple concept. This you can become aware of in meditation. Once this has been done you will be ready to serve, just as others have served and are now serving upon your planet. Follow their example; spend time in meditation. Qualify yourself to reach out to your fellow man and lead him from the darkness of confusion that he is experiencing back into the light that he desires.

-- Are there comments on current or recent events?
Zilch, and how a reader of such site could inform himself about anything if he in his “waking� state is submissive and in semi-meditation?

-- Are there specific predictions of the future events (and are any kind of dates given)?
None in the sense one could classify them as specific prediction. The only one I could find is “Earth changes are on the increase and will start really to rock hard by next spring. It is not for nothing that the Elders of all Native American tribes have told their people to leave big cities, coastal areas, and be on higher ground with their food and water ready by the spring of 2006. People of same mind getting together will form frequency pockets of higher energy helping to be protected and this way helping more the shifting of the worlds. When your frequency is “polarized� you are in tune with Mother Earth and thus also protected from natural changes.�

 

[PopHistorian]

Well, enough said. Thanks for this. "Sub-space communication?" I don't know if there is such a thing with that name theorized in physics -- anyone know? But it sure is a Star Trek term, which has been borrowed by other science-fiction types.

<< An offering of proof or an impressing of this Truth upon an individual in such a way that he would be forced to accept it would have no usable effect upon his vibratory rate. >>

I'm curious about this quote, as it seems grafted on, not belonging to the rest of the quote. Did it come from (http:/)/www.goldenlightfleet.com/mambo/content/view/20/27/ ?
I recognized the entire paragraph, word for word, as Hatonn communicating back in the 1970s. This was included in The Ra Material.

It's an important passage (demonstrates the cherry-picking nature of these ETs-are-coming-to-save-us groups) that I quoted myself here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=3886

You can also see it in this transcript of Ra books here: http://www.exclave.org/lo.html

 

[CarpeDiem]

<< An offering of proof or an impressing of this Truth upon an individual in such a way that he would be forced to accept it would have no usable effect upon his vibratory rate. >>
I'm curious about this quote, as it seems grafted on, not belonging to the rest of the quote. Did it come from (http:/)/www.goldenlightfleet.com/mambo/content/view/20/27/ ? I recognized the entire paragraph, word for word, as Hatonn communicating back in the 1970s. This was included in The Ra Material.

Yea, quote comes from Surmely: http://www.goldenlightfleet.com/mambo/content/view/20/27/1/6/
last frases in his The Galactic Confederation by Hatonn. Here is longer word salad quote

There is going to be a Harvest, as you might call it, a harvest of souls that will shortly occur upon your planet. We are attempting to extract the greatest possible harvest from this planet. This is our mission, for we are the Harvesters.
In order to be most efficient, we are attempting to create first a state of seeking among the people of this planet who desire to seek. This would be those who are close to the acceptable level of vibration. Those above this level are of course not of as great interest to us since they have, you might say, already made the grade. Those far below this level, unfortunately, cannot be helped by us at this time. We are attempting at this time to increase by a relatively small percentage the number who will be harvest ed into the path of love and understanding.
Even a small percentage of those who dwell upon your planet is a vast number, and this is our mission, to act through groups such as this one in order to disseminate information in such a fashion that it may be accepted or rejected, that it may be in a state lacking what the people of your planet choose to call proof.
We offer them no concrete proof, as they have a way of expressing it. We offer them Truth. This is an important function of our mission–to offer Truth without proof. In this way, the motivation will, in each and every case, come from within the individual. In this way, the individual vibratory rate will be increased. An offering of proof or an impressing of this Truth upon an individual in such a way that he would be forced to accept it would have no usable effect upon his vibratory rate. This, then, my friends, is the mystery of our way of approaching your peoples.�

Is there any way to edit thread's name inserting
Jean Michel Surmely and Unified Ashtar Command
in thread's name? Thread title as it is now is buried somewhere in yahoo 1,490,000 hits on golden light fleet.
Don't know if changing it would help somehow.
[moderator: inserted the info you requested]

Thanks for doing that!
I was right, it didn't help :) Thread is invisible neither in yahoo nor in google, so i just started playing with the most recent thread titles of forum
and its quite strange - some of them come in yahoo/ google search; and some don't. and there is a certain cyncronicity: if thread headline or combination of its words is invisible in yahoo, i could bet it would remain such in google.
There is like no pattern why some headlines come in yahoo/ google; and some - don't. That's weird

 

[mutezo]

We can devide predictions into two categories of "Fate" and "Non-Fate". Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action. Nostradamus predictions are fate, and as such, they were written in a way that they would never be fully understood until the events have happened. Fate is harmful if it is known before it happens because it causes useless, and therefore,unnecessary anxiety. Ordinary predictions are useful and should be known and be understood before they occure so that those concerned would take the necessary actions to prevent them. Predictions are eyes with which we can see the future and take appropriate actions to achieve chosen ends. So good prophases should never come true. Here "good" is used in the sense that they are well perceived, well expressed, well understood and appropriate actions are taken. A good prophesy may be even carrying a bad messege. Good prophases are unnecessary because humans, by their acting, expect good to come out of it anyway. Here "good" is used in the sense of carrying a pleasant message.

 

[anart]

We can devide predictions into two categories of "Fate" and "Non-Fate".

Could you please clarify who 'we' is and provide some data to verify your determination?

Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action. Nostradamus predictions are fate, and as such, they were written in a way that they would never be fully understood until the events have happened. Fate is harmful if it is known before it happens because it causes useless, and therefore,unnecessary anxiety.

Again, if you could provide some data or objective sources for this information, it would help. Are you basically stating that the future is not 'open' - that certain events are 'fate' and, therefore, will, without question, occur no matter what humanity may or may not do? Further, what relevance does this statement of yours have to this thread?

Ordinary predictions are useful and should be known and be understood before they occure so that those concerned would take the necessary actions to prevent them. Predictions are eyes with which we can see the future and take appropriate actions to achieve chosen ends. So good prophases should never come true.

Where do these predictions you mention come from? What are you defining as a prediction in this case? It almost sounds like you would consider someone saying 'if you touch your hand to that red hot stove, it will burn' as a prediction - do evident 'cause and effect' situations, explained, qualify as a prediction? Apologies if that sounds too blunt, but I'm trying to understand your post in the most clear manner I can.

Here "good" is used in the sense that they are well perceived, well expressed, well understood and appropriate actions are taken. A good prophesy may be even carrying a bad messege. Good prophases are unnecessary because humans, by their acting, expect good to come out of it anyway. Here "good" is used in the sense of carrying a pleasant message.

Thank you for defining your usage of 'good' here - however, I'm still left wondering what the point of this post is? Did you have some data or insight to add to the equation here?

 

[kenlee]

We can devide predictions into two categories of "Fate" and "Non-Fate". Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action..

You seem to be cross conceptualizing here and you are equating fate with predeterminism. There is no freedom in predeterminism, no free choice. It is what Gurdjieff calls the ultimate 'self calming' where tomorrow is no different then yesterday. But, as I understand it, fate relates to our birth and the influences from the planets on our 'soul-stuff' at BIRTH which determines our 'pattern' or our type or our character. We cant change our fate anymore then we can change the place and time of our birth. But this does not mean that the place and time of our birth predetermines our future. Fate does not predetermine our life but it more or less shapes our future into a certain pattern from choices made in the present. The pattern may condition our choices to a certain extent but it does not predetermine them, but rather, it 'shapes' them. But we still have free choice.

"Non Fate" may relate to destiny and a future pattern that is created and may have something to do with archetypes and from choices that come from the future and enter the human totality at CONCEPTION.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Makes me wonder though, if you are well-versed in astrology and other such "influences", can you "time it" so that your child is born at a more or less chosen date, and thus, you could have more control over the astrological influences on his birth/life? Like, if you want a pisces, just take March, subtract 9 months, and so you just gotta do the dirty in June. I'm sure you could get more elaborate. And if you believe in "name" numerology, just give the person the name that matches the numerological significance of your choice, etc. Of course this would assume that our current astrological and/or numerological understandings aren't a bunch of distorted nonsense. You'd have to do some serious "weeding" and research first to have any hope of having any objective affect with your "timings" I guess.

I think fate can also be karmic. But it's probably not set in stone in terms of how things happen, just that certain lessons need to be learned, and depending on your choices, they could be learned in a number of different ways, or maybe not learned at all. But one way or another, the universe will offer those lessons to you, so if that lesson includes not being with a partner or dying a violent death, you could have terrible luck ever finding someone to be with and marry as a result, simply due to "fate". Doesn't mean it's impossible, just that the "odds" might be against you this time around, etc. Oh yeah and, you might find an extraordinary amount of freak accidents being aimed right at you to take you out. Doesn't mean they'll "land", just the odds might be in the favor of you going out with a bang this time around or something...

I basically agree, I think it's just general set of influences and maybe a little "steering" from the universe. Some of which could be pretty much guaranteed too - like a disease etc that you just can't get rid of, and many other possible things that may be really unavoidable - or almost unavoidable. If there is a way to avoid them, it's probably pretty difficult and would require some serious work on your part, osit. I'm not sure but I think it was Laura who noticed that people have certain phobias and sometimes it has to do with them dying violently in a past life from whatever the phobia is for. Perhaps some of those could be cured with hypnotic regression, and so, even though you were "fated" to have this phobia due to past life issues, it's not totally unfixable, it just requires you know what to do and how to do it, to fix it, osit. Knowledge protects eh?

That reminds me of time cycles - you could call this global and national "fate". Time is cyclical, history repeats, etc etc. But only while we're all mechanical and predictable and subject to the same old set of influences (be it pathocratic, 4th density, natural inner or outer, whatever). So in some sense, we're all fated to repeat the same stuff until we can learn enough to escape this loop of fate through knowledge and conscious awareness of our mechanical parts that are controlled by those influences, etc.

 

[CarpeDiem]

Nostradamus predictions are fate, and as such, they were written in a way that they would never be fully understood until the events have happened.

Nostradamus predictions are a piano which sounds depending on a musician who plays on it. His "predictions" are NOT a scientifically sound method to explain reality. You could "decipher" multitude of historic events happened at different timelines with the same quadrain. And exactly that is what happens repeatedly with Nostradamus quadrains.

Fate is harmful if it is known before it happens because it causes useless, and therefore, unnecessary anxiety. [...]
Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action.

What is your method to distinguish the first from the second? Is it an objective and scientifically sound method, based on facts?

 

[kenlee]

I think fate can also be karmic. But it's probably not set in stone in terms of how things happen, just that certain lessons need to be learned, and depending on your choices, they could be learned in a number of different ways, or maybe not learned at all. But one way or another, the universe will offer those lessons to you, so if that lesson includes not being with a partner or dying a violent death, you could have terrible luck ever finding someone to be with and marry as a result, simply due to "fate". Doesn't mean it's impossible, just that the "odds" might be against you this time around, etc. Oh yeah and, you might find an extraordinary amount of freak accidents being aimed right at you to take you out. Doesn't mean they'll "land", just the odds might be in the favor of you going out with a bang this time around or something...

Yes, it might be that our fate shapes our future in a certain way where there are many different possible states, any one of which can actualize with greater or lesser degrees of probability depending on our level of consciousness and awareness.

There might be different kinds of future. For example, there might be a 'predetermined future' that is based on events that originate only in the past. Or there might be a 'karmic' or 'consequential future' that is based on events and choices that originate in both the past and in the present. There might be a 'fateful future' that might be based on choices that originate in the present (which gives the possibility of working out our karma by learning our lessons) and there might be an 'open future' that might have its points of origin in both the present and the creative future where we are free of karma (or at least becoming more free of it) . So the 'origin point' of our choices might determine what kind of future we have and how free and unconditioned it is.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Fate is harmful if it is known before it happens because it causes useless, and therefore, unnecessary anxiety. Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action.

What is your method to distinguish the first from the second? Is it an objective and scientifically sound method, based on facts?

"Events that cannot be changed by human action" - do such exist? The C's said if you know how, you can undo all of creation, create/destroy universes, etc. I'm not basing any conclusions on the C's here, I'm just saying that I don't want to put an artificial limit on the capabilities and/or consequences/repercussions of "human action/potential". So while you can use the above definition for fate, the question of "What are those events? Do they even exist?" remains to be answered, osit. And if the answer happens to be that there is nothing that cannot, at least in potential, be altered by "human action", then this would force fate into being subject to free will, at least to a certain extent, osit.

I think some things ARE inevitable - they cannot be postponed forever - but they could be changed/postponed temporarily, even of "temporarily" happens to be a very very long "time", if one has the knowledge/power to do so. Besides, what can possibly "happen/exist" outside of free will? Isn't fate just "will" on a different level? Somebody had to set up the rules of the game, didn't they? Even if it's the universe itself and the reason was simply necessity of some sort, like why thre are 7 densities and not 6 or 8, etc. I guess there are some things that possibly nobody could tamper with, period - simply because the knowledge that is needed to tamper with them is out of reach for all densities except 7th - or maybe because tampering would be impossible due to natural "laws" which are defined at 7th density? I dunno. If you are a 6th density being, can you change the total number of densities that exist in all of existance? Where would that place you? The C's said that when you die and go through that "tunnel of light" nobody from any density can interfere in that process. I dunno if this is true of course, but just hypothetically one could ask "Why not?" If knowledge leads to power (ability to do stuff), then this would imply that the knowledge required to interfere at that point (or maybe to change the number of densities) is impossible to achieve. Is it because of a fundemental rule of logic like 1+1=2, that probably cannot be changed at all? Or is it simply because the universe "decided" that this is how things will be? I think probably it is the former, because if there is a possibility to change something, a reality would have to exist where it IS changed, osit.

 

[mutezo]

We can devide predictions into two categories of "Fate" and "Non-Fate".

Could you please clarify who 'we' is and provide some data to verify your determination?
I paraphrase it to:" Predictions can divide into two categories of "Fate" and "Non-Fate".

Fate concerns the events that cannot be changed by human action and Non-Fate deals with the events that can be changed by human action. Nostradamus predictions are fate, and as such, they were written in a way that they would never be fully understood until the events have happened. Fate is harmful if it is known before it happens because it causes useless, and therefore, unnecessary anxiety.

Again, if you could provide some data or objective sources for this information, it would help. Are you basically stating that the future is not 'open' - that certain events are 'fate' and, therefore, will, without question, occur no matter what humanity may or may not do? Further, what relevance does this statement of yours have to this thread?

Basically, yes. I mean the future, like the present and the past, is time and time is events. Events have layers of categories and the categories fall into two major categories - Fate and Non-Fate. Predictions, under which Channelling is a sub-category, is talking about future events. There is fateful and non-fateful future. Death is fateful. Only its time is uncertain yet it can be made certain. Scientific or logical consequences are fully predictable and are subject to human determination. We can predict the weather. Natural phenomena like volcanoes and earthquakes cannot be predicted scientifically but they can be channelled metaphysically. Natural phenomena and death cannot be changed but we can adjust to them if they are predicted. Predictions serve us to adjust to those future events that cannot be changed or help us to change those that can be changed by altering our behaviour. Finally, as a new member, I could very well have landed on the wrong thread. If so can somebody direct me to where could be relevant?

Ordinary predictions are useful and should be known and be understood before they occur so that those concerned would take the necessary actions to prevent them. Predictions are eyes with which we can see the future and take appropriate actions to achieve chosen ends. So good prophases should never come true.

Where do these predictions you mention come from? What are you defining as a prediction in this case? It almost sounds like you would consider someone saying 'if you touch your hand to that red hot stove, it will burn' as a prediction - do evident situations, explained, qualify as a prediction? Apologies if that sounds too blunt, but I'm trying to understand your post in the most clear manner I can.

Psychics, shamans, priests, prophates, mediums, seers etc channel predictions. Channelled information comes from the psychic or metaphysical world, with or without the help of a metaphysical consciousness. They use the sixth sense to collect the data. I think the best way to define the sixth sense it that it is a combination of all the five senses that we have. This would explain why psychics could detect taste with their eyes, for example, hence the term clairvoyant - clear seeing. 'Cause and effect' are not predictions in a strict sense of the word. They are scientific and not metaphysical.

Here "good" is used in the sense that they are well perceived, well expressed, well understood and appropriate actions are taken. A good prophesy may be even carrying a bad message. Good prophases are unnecessary because humans, by their acting, expect good to come out of it anyway. Here "good" is used in the sense of carrying a pleasant message.

Thank you for defining your usage of 'good' here - however, I'm still left wondering what the point of this post is? Did you have some data or insight to add to the equation here?

As said above, I am newcomer here and my contribution may very well be irrelevant to this post in which case I beg you all to accept my apologies!

 

[anart]

Finally, as a new member, I could very well have landed on the wrong thread. If so can somebody direct me to where could be relevant?

Of course, you can be/are relevant - we are simply asking that you go into more detail when you make statements that come across as rather absolute. Thank you for going into more detail on your understanding of prophecy/predictions, it makes your perspective easier to grasp.

The requests for clarification were not attacks, though they may have seemed that way - if we were not interested in what you are trying to say, we would not ask for clarification, so hopefully you can excuse the many questions and understand that we are simply trying to understand.