Society and People

[EPG]

Hello,

I apologize beforehand if some of these topics/questions have already been discussed, but I could not find proper answers through the search function.

So, I've been wondering how is one supposed to interact with society at large? Am I supposed to ignore or avoid most of the friends/people that I come across in real life? Because sometimes I start thinking how perhaps they're trying to sort of put me "off-course", and that I could be spending my time more productively, rather than interacting (going out) with some people; since most of the time, the usual conversations come up about trivial and mundane things. It is quite a shock to see how so many individuals are mechanical in their way of thinking and living...

I feel a sense of loneliness when I step out into everyday life and realize how most people do not want to seek or hear the truth about this pathological world; that I cannot have more engaging conversations with certain individuals because then I would be breaching their free will?

On the other hand, I think that this way of thinking can be potentially dangerous because I do not want to put myself in a "position above others". I believe it's important to enjoy the company of friends and family, showing/giving empathy, respect, and listening to what others have to say, even though it can be boring at times... On the bright side, one can usually learn something meaningful from anyone, even if the individual is not really aware, correct?

Another concept I've been wondering about, what does it mean specifically about "doing the Work"? So, doing the work is about working on one's self, yes? To do so, one must seek knowledge, then one must apply knowledge to real world, in practice, right? How does this work? Apart from EE and dietary changes, reading articles and books, is there something else?

Lastly, if we are all STS living in an STS world, as I've read somewhere here, and we should be striving to be more STO, then does that mean each individual has different degrees of STS vs STO-ness? Hypothetically, one can be 90% STS and 10% STO, or 60% vs 40%, etc? So, as I've understood, being STO means helping others without presuming anything in return? Could someone point out an example, in practical everyday scenarios?

Just some thoughts and questions... Please feel free to correct me. Sorry if these questions might seem rather obvious or tedious. I have moments of confusion and I'm just trying to learn. Thanks :)

 

[anart]

Hello,

I apologize beforehand if some of these topics/questions have already been discussed, but I could not find proper answers through the search function.

So, I've been wondering how is one supposed to interact with society at large? Am I supposed to ignore or avoid most of the friends/people that I come across in real life? Because sometimes I start thinking how perhaps they're trying to sort of put me "off-course", and that I could be spending my time more productively, rather than interacting (going out) with some people; since most of the time, the usual conversations come up about trivial and mundane things. It is quite a shock to see how so many individuals are mechanical in their way of thinking and living...

I feel a sense of loneliness when I step out into everyday life and realize how most people do not want to seek or hear the truth about this pathological world; that I cannot have more engaging conversations with certain individuals because then I would be breaching their free will?

On the other hand, I think that this way of thinking can be potentially dangerous because I do not want to put myself in a "position above others". I believe it's important to enjoy the company of friends and family, showing/giving empathy, respect, and listening to what others have to say, even though it can be boring at times... On the bright side, one can usually learn something meaningful from anyone, even if the individual is not really aware, correct?

It might be worthwhile to re-read what you've written above while trying to notice the fact that you're really thinking only about yourself and your comfort level in the world. Gurdjieff said that the key to happiness is external consideration always and internal consideration never. Of course you are supposed to go out into the world and treat people in a way that makes life easier for them and for you. The school IS the world - becoming a recluse is moving in the wrong direction.

Another way to think about it is something the C's once said. They were comparing groups of people to orchestras and commented that what really matters is if you can stay 'on key' while those around you don't. Can you keep the tune because it is 'in you' to keep, no matter how others around you are playing?

It's good exercise - get out there, interact with people and observe yourself - and be externally considerate. Life is the laboratory!

Another concept I've been wondering about, what does it mean specifically about "doing the Work"? So, doing the work is about working on one's self, yes? To do so, one must seek knowledge, then one must apply knowledge to real world, in practice, right? How does this work? Apart from EE and dietary changes, reading articles and books, is there something else?

Have you read In Search of the Miraculous yet? Or any of Gurdjieff's books? They are key to understanding this. It is an every day effort to observe, be aware and act in a way that reflects ones understanding - every day - in all things.

Lastly, if we are all STS living in an STS world, as I've read somewhere here, and we should be striving to be more STO, then does that mean each individual has different degrees of STS vs STO-ness?

It's my understanding that if you're here and are human, you're an STS being. You can strive to become an STO candidate, but I don't think any human being can really be STO in this environment or they'd not fit here any more, though we can begin to learn what an STO mindset might mean and slowly try to align our own thinking and view of the world in that direction. I would imagine the first step of that would be to remove self-concerns from every equation, and that is fairly unfathomable to me at this point - I don't think we can truly conceptualize it until we are there. We do what is in us to do, while striving to learn all there is to learn about this reality and ourselves and, while doing all of that, aligning ourselves with the face of the Universe that we are most 'attracted to', to put it very simply. Some human beings are deeply attracted to the self, to serving the self, and others have a subtle pull in another direction.

Just my current understanding, so hopefully it helps a bit.

 

[EPG]

Aha, thank you anart!

Yes, I see what you mean now... every now and then I get overwhelmed in my internal thoughts, I really need to work on this. I didn't really think about it in that way, cheers.

Well, currently, I'm reading Political Ponerology, because evil was a subject which I was very concerned with. So, I will read ISOTM and Gurdjieff's books, eventually :)

I realize there's still a long way to go, but I guess everyday is like a gift and lessons are learned over time.

 

[SMM]

Would like to comment:

Yes, I see what you mean now... every now and then I get overwhelmed in my internal thoughts, I really need to work on this. I didn't really think about it in that way, cheers.

This happens to me every so often I think. It has been worse. I also seem to have been born with a mental block which makes me socially cautious & overtly aware of trivialities, which makes me anxious or feel handicapped..even whilst networking online i.e. Facebook or here.
In fact nowadays, especially whilst networking online

I live in a hostel & feel a mixed sense of shame & apprehension about having people over - 1. it's a hostel, which sets my brain into thinking others will think lower of me for inhabiting such & 2. fear of non-colinear interactions.
Those things sound subjective to me, it's work in progress, but then the thought of anticipation/desire arises vs. intent, or patience, & it's sort of cyclical from there.

It might be worthwhile to re-read what you've written above while trying to notice the fact that you're really thinking only about yourself and your comfort level in the world. Gurdjieff said that the key to happiness is external consideration always and internal consideration never. Of course you are supposed to go out into the world and treat people in a way that makes life easier for them and for you. The school IS the world - becoming a recluse is moving in the wrong direction.

Another way to think about it is something the C's once said. They were comparing groups of people to orchestras and commented that what really matters is if you can stay 'on key' while those around you don't. Can you keep the tune because it is 'in you' to keep, no matter how others around you are playing?

It's good exercise - get out there, interact with people and observe yourself - and be externally considerate. Life is the laboratory!

Western society presently seems to heavily promote internal consideration, at times with added wishful thinking. I think I'm going to search around, dig up ISOTM, to see if I can find more on external consideration & its meaning.

After coming to terms with some anxieties I couldn't see whilst stubbornness pervaded last year, I found lines of communication weren't as constricted as I'd deemed. It is as though I listen better, am more present [i.e. not fantasy planning in my head] & am less adamant about getting my own way since... external consideration ties in with letting go of outcome(s)?

Then there is, what looks like, warnings or attacks from interactions - is that consequent to observing the self, getting out & interacting? Maybe related to whom, why & how you interact...
in a recent instance, it didn't involve the person directly, but occurred after every time we interacted. For a while I wasn't sure where the line between logic & intuition was drawn

It's my understanding that if you're here and are human, you're an STS being. You can strive to become an STO candidate, but I don't think any human being can really be STO in this environment or they'd not fit here any more, though we can begin to learn what an STO mindset might mean and slowly try to align our own thinking and view of the world in that direction. I would imagine the first step of that would be to remove self-concerns from every equation, and that is fairly unfathomable to me at this point - I don't think we can truly conceptualize it until we are there. We do what is in us to do, while striving to learn all there is to learn about this reality and ourselves and, while doing all of that, aligning ourselves with the face of the Universe that we are most 'attracted to', to put it very simply. Some human beings are deeply attracted to the self, to serving the self, and others have a subtle pull in another direction.

Just my current understanding, so hopefully it helps a bit.

The waters still seem a bit muddied imo as those who have a pull in another direction, without knowledge/awareness it seems, are more susceptible to manipulation by those attracted to the self.

I think in a past life I must've been incredibly left-brain dominant... or genetically?
As far as I can fathom, there is an aspect of myself that would usurp all energy for control or domination if it could - but it sits like a foreign body, or trapped, which makes anxieties worse as I question motivation.

There's a book called Trapped in the Mirror, which covers narcissism [this control/dominant aspect of myself, masculine in nature, who looks at 'the weak reflection' through the mirror & feels dissatisfied not being able to possess her, but can see it as projections relating to my father who is also somewhat narcissistic] that I would like to read.

I realize there's still a long way to go, but I guess everyday is like a gift and lessons are learned over time.

I know this is from about a year & a half ago, yet I think the above still stands.
Over & out :)

 

[Nienna]

Along with Trapped in the Mirror, I would like to recommend The Narcissist Family. They are both in our recommended read list along with a whole lot of other books.

As far as internal considering, you may want to look at External Considering and Internal Considering and, just for fun if you haven't already look at it, Strategic Enclosure.

 

[SMM]

Along with Trapped in the Mirror, I would like to recommend The Narcissist Family.

So, from reading over the Amazon preview of Trapped in the Mirror, it's hit a nail on the head. It'd crossed my mind before (dismissed in fear of being wrong, or right for that matter)..however it has been bought to my attention that narcissism & its respective effects has been a salient black cloud hovering over familial, thus my own (& vice versa?) life.

There's the evasive child-me, through time immemorial, whose taken the inner parent vis a vis my father & draped it over the world at large i.e. society, authority, public at large, friends, partners - any other being per se. The draw to "Be nothing" (but what's expected, or what I think is expected of me from the world - which just spells sycophantic martyr), the fear of rejection & criticism, issues with perfection & finishing what I start...

The depiction of the child of a narcissist fits ad verbum. I have a pretty weak will/intent, most prominent when it comes to personal choices [that which impacts me directly, determines which 'internal' direction or trajectory governs] that are as a society believed for your own benefit i.e. education, work, relationships. The list of attributes goes on...

though I must add, the unrelenting paralysis & suffocation I felt whilst living at home; that lifted after moving out & working on my self, it feels like my perception has done a 180.

It also had me wondering, how common is this narcissistic phenomena?! Something tells me that it is far more widespread than meets the eye :/

Okay, vent over..got me some more enlightening reading to do :P
Much gratitude for the External & Internal Considering link Nienna!! & the Strategic Enclosure too - I was on my way to type them into the search function

 

[Buddy]

It also had me wondering, how common is this narcissistic phenomena?! Something tells me that it is far more widespread than meets the eye

It's complicated, but narcissistic phenomena is not the whole of our problems, though it does seem widespread. The phenomena's namesake, Narcissus, was in love with himself. His defining characteristic was that he didn't need other people. If that were the extent of pathology we might have an easier time of sorting ourselves out. Also in the mix are other behaviors, like passive-aggressiveness.

So, I recommend studying the material and learn from it all that you can. There is a common thread of disassociation that runs through all the basic psychology. Once you get that and understand the dynamics, you might better see where everything else fits.

My 2 cents.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Buddy, if I could make a distinction, Narcissus wasn't in love with himself in the myth he was in love with the image of himself, gazing at his reflection in the water.

 

[Buddy]

Quite right, Mr. Premise. I can see how making that distinction in this context would be a good thing. Thanks for that. :)

 

[Nienna]

Along with Trapped in the Mirror, I would like to recommend The Narcissist Family.

It also had me wondering, how common is this narcissistic phenomena?! Something tells me that it is far more widespread than meets the eye :/

The narcissism that is talked about in both books is not necessarily Narcissistic Personality Disorder. But a narcissism that comes about by being wounded by parents who are "into" themselves and their own emotional needs rather than their children's. Some parents are clinical narcissists. But most are wounded themselves and pass along their programs (narcissistic traits among others) onto their children. Then their children grow up with the same type of programming, passing it on to their children. And round and round it goes.

Both of these great books deal with this, showing us the programming and how to control the programs and break free of the continuing pattern.

Okay, vent over..got me some more enlightening reading to do :P
Much gratitude for the External & Internal Considering link Nienna!! & the Strategic Enclosure too - I was on my way to type them into the search function

You're welcome. ;)