Steven Soderbergh: State of Cinema talk

[Persej]

I found this very interesting talk about movie business in Hollywood today. The talk was given in 2013, and I think that his analysis was true, that we do get more and more gigantic blockbusters and less and less good quality, not another sequel/prequel/remake, medium budget movies from Hollywood today. Quick explanation for this phenomenon: wrong people at the top positions who only care about money. For more in depth explanation listen to Mr Soderbergh:

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Another interesting talk that I found was this one by James Cameron:

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He also says that modern movies are crap (no decent character development) and he wants to make Terminator reboot to show how it should be done. I don't know about this Tim Miller guy, but I always thought that Cameron is a smart guy who makes good movies. I hope he makes something good with his new projects.

 

[gdpetti]

On this topic of Hollywood trends: http://www.spyculture.com/clandestime-124-hollywood-run-ideas-govt-help/
ClandesTime 124 – Has Hollywood Run Out of Ideas? (and what the govt. is doing to help)

opening paragraph====

The book of Ecclesiastes tells us, ‘The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.’ Even the idea that there is nothing new is thousands of years old. This week we’re going to look at why Hollywood appears to have run out of ideas despite being one of the most innovative places on earth. As the studios have become more desperate for something we haven’t seen before they are increasingly turning to governments for help. I explore how the new models of soft reboots and cinematic universes have been encouraged and supported by the Pentagon, and how this is helping create a dynamic whereby government agencies are increasing their power in Hollywood.

 

[987baz]

Thanks for the vids, I like Cameron and Soderbergh's work, will have a look at these when I get the chance.

Tim Miller, is the guy who directed Deadpool, he was an animator and visual effects artist for most of his career before directing Deadpool.

 

[Persej]

It's all about the money in their heads.

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Why are some theaters refusing to play The Last Jedi?

A blockbuster like a Star Wars movie is a cultural event that generates its own gravity. It doesn't matter if you're interested—it's a movie so big, you'll be drawn into its orbit no matter what you want.

Which is to say that December 15 is a bad day to be a new movie that's not Star Wars: The Last Jedi, the long-awaited eighth episode of the decades-spanning Star Wars story.

One would think that theaters would want to put a movie like that up on every screen that had access to for its opening weekend, to maximize screenings and crank up profits. So why are some theaters flat-out refusing to screen the movie at all?

According to a report by The Wall Street Journal, Disney is imposing harsh financial requirements on the theaters they'll partner with to screen The Last Jedi—terms which many theater owners are calling the worst they've ever encountered in the business.

The standard way that movie studios and theaters make money off of the release of a new movie involves splitting the profits from ticket sales on a percentage basis. First-run films often earn more of a percentage for the studio—typically 55% to 60% of ticket sales, with that percentage decreasing as the weeks go on and interest in the movie begins to flag.

But Disney is in an immensely advantageous position with The Last Jedi, a direct sequel to the highest-grossing movie of all time domestically, and by a fair margin at that. The company is using that advantage to impose extremely restrictive terms on theaters that want to show the film. One film buyer noted in the Journal article that by their metric, Disney right now is "in the most powerful position any studio has ever been in, maybe since MGM in the 1930s."

So what are these restrictions? First of all, regarding shares of ticket revenue, Disney is asking for what is evidently an all-time high for Hollywood: 65% from all participating theaters. Also, their agreement mandates that theaters showing The Last Jedi have to screen it in their largest auditorium for at least four weeks.

In addition to these terms, the company is also imposing an uncommon penalty for violating them. Should Disney deem any theater to be in violation of the agreement, the agreement says that Disney is then allowed to take an additional 5% of ticket sales from the theater—meaning that for four weeks, 70% of all money earned from The Last Jedi in a theater would go straight to Disney.

Violations, according to Disney, would include pulling even one screening from a theater's schedule, or using marketing materials for the movie before Disney gives the go-ahead.

Most theaters will simply have no choice but to play by the rules, but some independent operations intend to push back.

While these terms still are harsh for your AMCs and Cinemarks, what these conditions really hurt are smaller theaters, serving small populations. One cinema owner who operates a single-screen theater noted that in his small town, everyone who wanted to see The Last Jedi would see it in the first two weeks, leaving the owner stuck playing the movie for four weeks to what would eventually be an empty room. For this trouble, the theater would keep only 35% of the increasingly meager profits from it all—or 30%, if Disney decides they broke a rule.

Considering the record-breaking success of The Force Awakens, it's easy to see why Disney would impose such a strict agreement on theaters. But surprisingly, it's also easy to see why some theaters wouldn't want to play ball. Amazing as it sounds, it may actually be better business, for some places, to let everyone else stick with Star Wars.

http://www.looper.com/93677/theaters-refusing-play-last-jedi/

 

[987baz]

Thanks for the info Persej, I can't say I am surprised, given the amount of people who seem to be staying away from the movie theaters these days, that and the fact that I think maybe finally the general population may be getting sick and tired of the hollywood blockbusters http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2017/08/14/summer-box-office-down-12-percent-but-bright-spots-remain/ so I guess they are trying to grab as much money as they can

 

[Persej]

Yeah, I guess they see that most of the other movies are crap, and that even though these Star Wars movies are a sequels, and not some original movies per se, they have still preserved a quality film making in themselves, which many people recognize and are willing to pay for. And from whom Disney guys, of course, are more than willing to take more money.

I was watching that Valerian movie last night and it was so bad, far cry from Fifth Element that Luc Besson made in '97. Same thing with Ridley Scott and his Alien. It looks like even the old guys like Besson and Ridley forgot how to make good movies. Like their brains atrophied or something. So sad.

The good news is that IMDB now allows login with FB account so I started giving my ratings for movies. There will be a lot of 1 stars for modern blockbusters. ;)

 

[gdpetti]

Boy, I don't know how much the exhibition market has changed over the last decade or two, but back when the original Star Wars series was pushing the box office, all the big films would take up to 90% of the opening weekend, then 80% the following, then 70% and down to ~50%... but these days, most films don't last much past 2 weeks due to the large number of screens in its initial release schedule... back in the late 70's when all of this sequel stuff was kicking in, 400 to 600 was average I think... but these big budget films would open with 800 screens and these days, some of them open international as well as domestic, and I believe it was the Hunger Games franchise that attempted to do the DVD market at the open as well.... don't remember if that was very successful or not, probably not as much as they thought as it didn't catch on... but the entire market is still changing into a digital release format that will eventually ignore the exhibition in theatres.... except for the biggest franchise products like Star Wars... and they can't keep the theatres up and running at a profit... Disney is doing the usual fleecing routine which like the rest of our markets, will continue until it all collapses... as the theatres, as stated in the article, can't profit from this arrangement of having to contract the film for 4weeks... UNLESS that opening weekend arrangement is different..... from what I remember, most films start at the average 50%, as they don't make a lot of money... same in college sports... it is the men's basketball and football programs that make the money, the rest cost money.... but they are the same owners, unlike in films, which since the feds forced that split in the late 50s? ... wasn't that it?... since then, the business model changed.... as tv came in and changed everything... all the B movies went to tv, westerns, etc.... it also pretty much ended the whole live theatre market that so many acts depended upon for their livelihood... but the successful ones mostly went to tv... We are facing the same situation in music and films... even tv is facing this change in the market.

If Disney is trying to railroad this project down their throats, many of the small ones will likely either turn their backs and wait for secondary release schedule at cheaper prices or depend backend or tie ups with other product, which is why the cable/satellite industry has the problem with 'cord cutters'.... the market is changing, Disney is typical of WallStreet trying to milk it for all they can get before it all comes crashing down and no one goes to the theatre at all... maybe Disney will be the last card that makes it all come crashing down.

But, since most of these franchise films get the large % opening weekend, it really is only this 4week requirement that's a problem.... in their largest theatre??? They already do split screen showings to double up.... but they might get away with it if there isn't much else opening after it that is a major draw.... otherwise, the theatre chains will balk or depend other % of the revenue streams, say on merchandise sold at the theatre etc... if it's a popular target for children, even some old fans will buy it unless the price is too high... unless they are addicts and the merchandise is kept off the other store shelves for this month? Either way, no theatre is going to play this game unless it's to their advantage...

 

[Persej]

Mark Hamill: "Remember kids, it's not important if it's of high quality, only if it makes money." :)

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[mkrnhr]

The most annoying aspect of big movies nowadays is the concept of "franchise", which basically means a never ending series of movies where no closure is ever achieved. However, why movies in general are more and more boring is because people do not know how to tell a story anymore. Usually, when you watch a movie (or read/hear a story) there are many internal processes that are involved, intellectually and emotionally. There is of course the suspension of disbelief that allows to empathize with the fictional character and the engagement with the story line in the sense of "what would have been my reaction in a similar situation". There is also the aspect of learning from others' mistakes, attitudes, and solutions.

Some other technical and "artistic" issues are summarized in this video: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPMfCJpfhdo (a hour long!)
Notice the issue of "dumb heroes".

 

[987baz]

Yeah, I guess they see that most of the other movies are crap, and that even though these Star Wars movies are a sequels, and not some original movies per se, they have still preserved a quality film making in themselves, which many people recognize and are willing to pay for. And from whom Disney guys, of course, are more than willing to take more money.

I was watching that Valerian movie last night and it was so bad, far cry from Fifth Element that Luc Besson made in '97. Same thing with Ridley Scott and his Alien. It looks like even the old guys like Besson and Ridley forgot how to make good movies. Like their brains atrophied or something. So sad.

The good news is that IMDB now allows login with FB account so I started giving my ratings for movies. There will be a lot of 1 stars for modern blockbusters. ;)

Really, I was really looking forward to watching Valerian when it comes out on iTunes, I was hoping Besson had made some more magic. Well, I guess I'll watch it anyway, but yeah I think you're right, a lot of the older crew are even going down hill, hopefully Chris Nolan will still buck the trend, I haven't seen Dunkirk yet , but he has made some pretty good films.

The most annoying aspect of big movies nowadays is the concept of "franchise", which basically means a never ending series of movies where no closure is ever achieved. However, why movies in general are more and more boring is because people do not know how to tell a story anymore. Usually, when you watch a movie (or read/hear a story) there are many internal processes that are involved, intellectually and emotionally. There is of course the suspension of disbelief that allows to empathize with the fictional character and the engagement with the story line in the sense of "what would have been my reaction in a similar situation". There is also the aspect of learning from others' mistakes, attitudes, and solutions.

Some other technical and "artistic" issues are summarized in this video: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPMfCJpfhdo (a hour long!)
Notice the issue of "dumb heroes".

I also think there are so many horrible characters with no redeeming features, more and more pc rubbish and whole casts of "beautiful" people, that maybe, "normal" people are getting sick of seeing such unrealistic stereotypes. Not to mention the whole cg thing, sure it looks pretty but where's the story.

I think TV is where it's at these days, better character development as they can grow as the seasons get longer, writers and directors can take their time with character development!

Speaking of TV series I heard that they are thinking of making a Lord of the Rings tv series...could be interesting if done right....or

 

[Persej]

Really, I was really looking forward to watching Valerian when it comes out on iTunes, I was hoping Besson had made some more magic. Well, I guess I'll watch it anyway, but yeah I think you're right, a lot of the older crew are even going down hill,

Well, I don't know if it's his fault or the guys who made the comic that the movie is based upon. The story is just ridiculous (it is the same reason why I don't like J.K. Rowling's work) and the movie is all about running from one 'quest' to the next one. Like a video game.

hopefully Chris Nolan will still buck the trend, I haven't seen Dunkirk yet , but he has made some pretty good films.

Oh yeah, Nolan is one of the last good screenwriters/directors in the Hollywood.

The most annoying aspect of big movies nowadays is the concept of "franchise", which basically means a never ending series of movies where no closure is ever achieved. However, why movies in general are more and more boring is because people do not know how to tell a story anymore. Usually, when you watch a movie (or read/hear a story) there are many internal processes that are involved, intellectually and emotionally. There is of course the suspension of disbelief that allows to empathize with the fictional character and the engagement with the story line in the sense of "what would have been my reaction in a similar situation". There is also the aspect of learning from others' mistakes, attitudes, and solutions.

Yes. I think a Nolan and his 3 Batman movies are a good example how you can take a popular "franchise" and still make good movies. And in his case, not only good but much better than all the previous ones. You can clearly see that a guy has a talent and knowledge about his profession. Most other modern directors look like all they know is how to make MTV music videos. Which is probably true in many cases. And how much story and character development do you have in a 5 minute music video? :)

and whole casts of "beautiful" people, that maybe, "normal" people are getting sick of seeing such unrealistic stereotypes.

I don't that the problem is in "beautiful" people per se, but in "beautiful" people who cannot act. There were always such people before (like Schwarzenegger) but they had their specific space in those movies. But now they are everywhere.

Not to mention the whole cg thing, sure it looks pretty but where's the story.

That is exactly what you can see in this Valerian movie. A lot of wonderful CG with no reasonable story.

I think TV is where it's at these days, better character development as they can grow as the seasons get longer, writers and directors can take their time with character development!

Well, for me, the modern TV shows look like soap operas.
I can't watch anything new these days. :/

Speaking of TV series I heard that they are thinking of making a Lord of the Rings tv series...could be interesting if done right....or

If the Hobbit is any clue of how the thing would look like... it wont be done right. ;)

 

[gdpetti]

Every 'artist' seems to have their 'period' of their best work, very few ride the wave to the next high point... perhaps Sinatra is one example? Definite ups and downs there testing his personality issues each time. It's perhaps easier to see in singers... but actors really aren't that different as most storylines have 'young' hero types, not old Yoda or Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars... I think the current redo in the series utilizes an older Luke for the same effect.. in Batman, perhaps it's the butler guy?... Karate Kid had the master as well... Superman had his memory cubes from his father.... etc... all of which seem but leftovers from an earlier age... as most of the newer ones based in ??? seem to ignore this character arc in the storyline.... the 'hero' just gets their 'magic' and learn how to use it on their own... more or less.

But most older directors/writers have the same problem in their best work is behind them.... as it's always been a market for young audiences, more and more so since tv took over and the spectacles went from historical to fake hero stuff... scifi or fantasy stuff seems to rule the day in various mediums... as if a reflection of our society... zeitgeist.... a desire to imagine and not see things as they are... fake reality tv shows... fake superheroes... fake everything... food, medicine, religion, media etc.... roundup time on the ole corral. ;) Sign of the Times, no?

 

[987baz]

Well, I don't know if it's his fault or the guys who made the comic that the movie is based upon. The story is just ridiculous (it is the same reason why I don't like J.K. Rowling's work) and the movie is all about running from one 'quest' to the next one. Like a video game.

I haven't seen the comic it's based on,so maybe it's not Besson's fault, I'll let you know what I think when I watch it. Could it be that Besson has fallen into the trap of trying to accommodate to peoples short attention spans?

Oh yeah, Nolan is one of the last good screenwriters/directors in the Hollywood.

The most annoying aspect of big movies nowadays is the concept of "franchise", which basically means a never ending series of movies where no closure is ever achieved. However, why movies in general are more and more boring is because people do not know how to tell a story anymore. Usually, when you watch a movie (or read/hear a story) there are many internal processes that are involved, intellectually and emotionally. There is of course the suspension of disbelief that allows to empathize with the fictional character and the engagement with the story line in the sense of "what would have been my reaction in a similar situation". There is also the aspect of learning from others' mistakes, attitudes, and solutions.

Yes. I think a Nolan and his 3 Batman movies are a good example how you can take a popular "franchise" and still make good movies. And in his case, not only good but much better than all the previous ones. You can clearly see that a guy has a talent and knowledge about his profession. Most other modern directors look like all they know is how to make MTV music videos. Which is probably true in many cases. And how much story and character development do you have in a 5 minute music video? :)

Agreed, Nolan definitely made batman his own, the movies still looked great but had much more depth :)

I don't that the problem is in "beautiful" people per se, but in "beautiful" people who cannot act. There were always such people before (like Schwarzenegger) but they had their specific space in those movies. But now they are everywhere.

True, I am noticing more and more that even the extras are plastic people thee days, and the main protagonists are usually so physically unrealistic or "perfect" if you like. Every guy has the perfect abs and every girl has the perfect body.

Well, for me, the modern TV shows look like soap operas.
I can't watch anything new these days. :/

I guess it depends on what you mean by new, if you haven't seen Battlestar Galactica (2004 -2009) or Fringe (2008-2013) I would recommend them, even Breaking Bad had a great character arc, as dark as it was. As far as more recent shows, I would say The Leftovers is a great 3 season series, Black Sails, Outlander and throw in Colony, Twin Peaks and The Hand Maidens Tale and you have a few good shows to sink your teeth into, well IMO anyway ;)

If the Hobbit is any clue of how the thing would look like... it wont be done right. ;)

haha, yeah I tend to agree with you, but we can hope right? ;)

 

[Persej]

the 'hero' just gets their 'magic' and learn how to use it on their own... more or less.

Yes, that is exactly what Mark Hamill was complaining about in this clip: https://youtu.be/ghHgrjT_Hfk?t=183

Rey just got her power out of nothing, she never had go train. So kids, you don't have to go to school or have a teacher/master, everything will just come to you when the time is right. ;)

But most older directors/writers have the same problem in their best work is behind them.... as it's always been a market for young audiences, more and more so since tv took over and the spectacles went from historical to fake hero stuff... scifi or fantasy stuff seems to rule the day in various mediums... as if a reflection of our society... zeitgeist.... a desire to imagine and not see things as they are... fake reality tv shows... fake superheroes... fake everything... food, medicine, religion, media etc.... roundup time on the ole corral. ;) Sign of the Times, no?

Well, I don't complain about Sci-Fi movies in general, those are my favorite movies actually, but what I am complaining is the ridiculous stories in those movies with ridiculous characters. Like there was no serious thought process invested in creating them. You can ruin any type of movie with that kind of approach. It doesn't have to be a fantasy movie.

I haven't seen the comic it's based on,so maybe it's not Besson's fault, I'll let you know what I think when I watch it. Could it be that Besson has fallen into the trap of trying to accommodate to peoples short attention spans?

It's not too bad in that regard, it's just that story is shallow. It's all about running around and collecting things. Which is probably how young generations see the world, I guess.

I guess it depends on what you mean by new, if you haven't seen Battlestar Galactica (2004 -2009) or Fringe (2008-2013) I would recommend them, even Breaking Bad had a great character arc, as dark as it was. As far as more recent shows, I would say The Leftovers is a great 3 season series, Black Sails, Outlander and throw in Colony, Twin Peaks and The Hand Maidens Tale and you have a few good shows to sink your teeth into, well IMO anyway ;)

I haven't seen any of those.

All I know is that in the 90's I had some great shows (X-Files, DS-9, Homicide, even the First Wave was not bad to me) and now they all look like soap operas. Or maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy. :D

haha, yeah I tend to agree with you, but we can hope right? ;)

Yes, you can hope for a lot of violence and sex, but other than that I wouldn't hold my breath. :)

https://winteriscoming.net/2017/11/08/amazon-on-the-hunt-for-the-next-game-of-thrones-in-talks-to-make-lord-of-the-rings-into-tv-series-shell/

 

[gdpetti]

Old and grumpy? Say it isn't so.
The remake on BattleStar was, in general, rather excellent, same with the first couple season of Fringe... which you could see exactly which episodes their 'advisor' was involved with, as the other episodes concentrated on basic relationship/character development arcs,, whereas the 'advisor' eps pushed the dimensional curtain issues. Battlestar ended well but odd, same with one of my favs that I just watched the first anime film last night again on... Ghost in the Shell... that whole anime series made changes, but kept expanding the 'transhumanism' issues.. and had so many correct red flag hits on our current issues including a WW3 that didn't go nuclear.... rather well take on most of the 'ghost in the machine' questions... but, like most of these projects, they aren't esoterically inclined, so they just don't go any further... same with JKRowling's Harry Potter... she utilized all the standard 'magical' and folkloric storylines that are rather common in Britain it seems... a lot of 4d type abilities, but none of the other concerns... which get political and she isn't very knowledgeable about politics at all.... so no surprise when she seems to put her foot/ass in her mouth at least once a year... typical do-gooder wanting to do good, but unable to.

Ron Howard is working on a live action take on the popular manga/anime series "Tiger and Bunny"... superhero types defending their city but supported by competing corporations... so American, no? :D hopefully, Howard's team does a better job than the recent live action Ghost in the Shell.... good CGI and action scenes don't create a character and doesn't give the story any meaning... but that seems to be the case for all American projects... sort of reminds me of the American version of the "La Femme Nikita", a '90 Franco-Italian Luc Besson action-thriller.... the American version was so bland.. from the actor to the characterization set in America... seems it had to be approved by the Agency to get that bland... none of the style, etc.. and it isn't the actress because I've seen her do better stuff, but she wasn't the same as the actress in the French/Italian version... empires don't do this stuff well... it all gets bland... maybe because they suffer from tunnel vision so much... perhaps too many hands on the project keeping anything 'creative' out of it.... There are other projects that get better when more money his spent and the project taken to the next level.. like the big budget version of "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"... it was better IMO... thought they didn't do any more in the series like the original Swedish version did... but it seemed to be made for tv... lower budget, less dynamic characterization... but it still worked... just not as much 'umpfh!'

Most American stufff seems so tame... lack of creativity... but lots of hype... which isn't usually worth it, like "Avatar"... good film, but no where near the greatness the hype presented... usually that amount of hype spells trouble... it usually means the film is bland, but sellable.... how about that 'musical' "La La Land" That wasn't a musical.... rather a drama with a few musical scenes in it by actors that weren't very musical, which only made it worse... I think I watched it till the end, as you keep thinking that surely it gets better, right? Wrong.... "Fab...Baker Boys" was way better, but it did lack of real ending... the Grease movies at least ended their stories... and you could always do another sequel if you wanted... same with Disney's High School Musical series, which I thought they would've done another by now, but haven't... they did do "Lemonade Mouth" which was rather good, but surprisingly, left no room for a sequel, not very Disneylike at all, as Hollywood wants to sequelize every project if they can because selling the next one is automatically easier and presold to previous fans of the film/show.

So, in conclusion, it's the bland businessmen showing their control of things... which started long ago... they don't have any foresight.... a bunch of accountants with a few old marketing staff added in... which is why marketing has taken over their business in past decades... most of the executives haven't got a clue what the public wants, and holding a bunch of focus groups haven't helped, so they merely copy each other.... endless repetition of the same thing... repeat.... repeat.... like Wall Street or the CIA/NSA etc... same tired policies... another sign of the times.