STS? STO? Methinks my brain leads me astray...

[aaronfransen]

Sometimes I think, "absolutely I'm on the path to STO" because of the things I do, or the way I think, but then other times I think I'm just deceiving myself and actually simply deriving pleasure from these little so-called kindnesses, which is STS.

For example, I love making Christmas dinner, and while I don't eat carbs anymore, I will make potatoes for the assorted guests and family. I like to say that I do it out of love, but am I actually doing it out of some self serving need for acceptance? Approval?

Or take driving around. I very rarely get angry, and I try to be courteous because I think "I have no idea what kind of day that person is having", what if they had just lost a loved one and here I am being and ignorant ars sitting on a horn? No thank you. Again, I am deriving pleasure from this seeming act of kindness, which in some ways takes the blush off, if you will, knowing that I simply am who I am.

When I was 20 I used to resent people calling me a "boy scout." I didn't want to be a nice guy because (a) nice guys were boring, and (b) didn't get the girls. It wasn't until I was in my thirties that I finally became comfortable with the idea of not being a jerk to everyone (though I'm sure some would argue that I am, in fact).

I even recognize people in my life that are there to drain my energy, and as time goes on, I find I am better able to deal with it, and not LET them drain it. A large part of that came with going Paleo, I have to admit. Moods are much more level once you kick the wheat addiction!

Anyway, just wondering if other people run through the same thing in their heads.

 

[Carl]

It all depends whether you are doing it based on internal or external considering.

All of these doubts fade away when you act based on considering others and getting out of your own head. The nice feeling that comes from being nice to people, and not out of an internal people-pleasing program, is just a side effect imo, both parties seem to gain energy from a positive interaction.

 

[Graalsword]

I agree completely with Carlise.

If you give them potatoes out of external consideration, because they want that, and you know that they enjoy it and like it (in spite of being inflammatory, and because they are not interested in changing their diet), then I think that it is ok to feel good for that, you are simply making your life and theirs easy by not forcing them to do a paleo-diet, and give them simply what they ask. At the same time, some may experience both feelings, good for giving others what they ask, and at the same time bad for witnessing how others deteriorate their health with evil food. But you can´t do anything.

Regarding the `need for acceptance´ program, did you read the "big five" of narcissism posted here?:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4718.msg31032#msg31032

 

[Psalehesost]

One thing comes to mind: The part of you that thinks that "you're on the path to STO" isn't the part that might be. It sounds like expectation of an outcome, anticipating it - which is contrary to striving for something "higher" for its own sake.

At best, we may to a limited extent (in this life) grow into STO, if and once it's in us to do so. This would be growing a part of the self (a potential new self) at the cost of the rest (the false personality, our present "self"), which in the process must fall apart and die, hence stop choking the part of oneself that can have any lasting value.

Though before that can be realized, Gurdjieff's idea (mentioned in ISOTM) of becoming a "conscious egoist" in a consistent way - instead of not being anything in a consistent way - seems a much more practical approach, since it is compatible with the way we actually work. And for more on how we actually work, the Psychology & Cognitive Science board has much to offer, including both the threads relating to the adaptive unconscious and those on the neuroscientific aspects.

It seems to me that a solid step forward is to give up, or destroy, all thoughts of "becoming STO" or "advancing", because these distract from everything involved in actually doing so. And along with this, a likely painful (not to mention difficult) step: Destroying all the false ideals (examples of buffers, in G.'s terminology) that we internally consider, whether aware of it or not - all mechanical morality - which requires seeing it and seeing it for what it is. Without this, real conscience (in G.'s terms) cannot awaken, meaning one cannot strive for STO for real.

The real sparks of higher ideals lie deeper - there may be flashes of feeling something real which drives us to action, and this is hard (or impossible) to know or "classify" in hindsight as long as we are mechanical. For these to become permanent and grow and develop, conscience must be awakened - and for this, all buffers - i.e. dissociative splits and programmed lies - must be destroyed first.

OSIT. (This is a somewhat tentative synthesis of ideas - I have not networked the to me recent understanding in the last two paragraphs before - so take it with a grain of salt, and correct if wrong.)


EDIT: As for being a "conscious egoist" in G.'s terms - this requires external considering (Cassiopedia entry) as described by Carlise and Graalsword above.

 

[KingTiger]

Similar ideas of not being true to my awareness did happen to me when I was in my late teens. I was LDS then, and in an area where I understood that we should be teachers to those that did not believe, maybe by my devotion, I could show them the true light by standing up for something greater.
This way of thinking lead me on a long path of assumptions, selected ideas of blessings and brought me years of depression and self hate.
One example that still haunts me to this day; I was 18 when a young lady I was working work with, ask me to do her a favor of get her a pack of cigarettes at the local convenience store nearby. Out of my self-righteousness, I saw it was a golden opportunity to teach the evils of smoking and convinced myself that I was truly being her friend by not getting the cigarettes for her because I was standing up for the truth.

When I later learned how horrible this really was; remembering seeing the eyes of this young lady looking like she was ready to cry because I did hurt her inside, by stabbing a simple act of friendship by my stupid belief system. I can never reclaim that moment to make amends.
Being true to yourself (based on knowledge) is more STO than you realize.

 

[Buddy]

Sometimes I think, "absolutely I'm on the path to STO" because of the things I do, or the way I think, but then other times I think I'm just deceiving myself and actually simply deriving pleasure from these little so-called kindnesses, which is STS.

For example, I love making Christmas dinner, and while I don't eat carbs anymore, I will make potatoes for the assorted guests and family. I like to say that I do it out of love, but am I actually doing it out of some self serving need for acceptance? Approval?

Hi Lost Spirit. I agree with the previous replies. I suppose it might also be both, depending on how well you know your own motives. Do you also offer low or no carb dishes for anyone who may be wanting to try them but lack any social support for 'being different'? I'm not suggesting you should, I'm just wondering.

Or take driving around. I very rarely get angry, and I try to be courteous because I think "I have no idea what kind of day that person is having", what if they had just lost a loved one and here I am being and ignorant ars sitting on a horn? No thank you. Again, I am deriving pleasure from this seeming act of kindness, which in some ways takes the blush off, if you will, knowing that I simply am who I am.

I don't see any problem with that. Even if they're not having a bad day, the thing is their awareness level is probably very low and by demanding attention with a car horn, they could become even more distracted and dangerous.

When I was 20 I used to resent people calling me a "boy scout." I didn't want to be a nice guy because (a) nice guys were boring, and (b) didn't get the girls. It wasn't until I was in my thirties that I finally became comfortable with the idea of not being a jerk to everyone (though I'm sure some would argue that I am, in fact).

Well, I was in the Boy Scouts and can tell you that my experience of that reality did not conform to the ideals in the handbook. Anyway, most people seem unaware of this yet there can be good practical and esoteric benefits to being other than a jerk.

I even recognize people in my life that are there to drain my energy, and as time goes on, I find I am better able to deal with it, and not LET them drain it. A large part of that came with going Paleo, I have to admit. Moods are much more level once you kick the wheat addiction!

Anyway, just wondering if other people run through the same thing in their heads.

Speaking of 'draining' and speaking generally, it seems to me that most people's concerns are largely superficial. Listening to ordinary conversations, it's easy to get the idea that their expressions are mostly over-the-top, exaggerated displays of emotion; as if they're method acting--projecting for an audience. That seems to be some people's idea of sympathy. But actually try and do something practical to fix the problem or make the bad feelings go away, and you can be told you're being "unsympathetic". Geez!

So, from a Work perspective, the only problem here that I can see is if you believe people are being real and you respond to them likewise, believing in your own lies, so to speak, and actually expect all will live happily ever after.

I think this is where strategic enclosure and external considering enters the picture. This way, you can totally be a part of life and all that's going on while also being a 'passer-by' (being in the world but not of it). IOW, no matter where you go or what you have to work with, you can always make yourself useful and liked by others and benefit from their approval without actually needing their approval; or needing them to be consistent with their approval. After all, you are really Working on yourself to increase your resonant frequency closer to whatever is STO, OSIT.