Sun/Moon In Desert Lake dream

[Johnno]

There was another powerful image I associated to your dream: Arcana XVIII, "La Lune" [http://www.camoin.com/en/look/look.asp]. This is, for me, one of the most, if not the most, esoteric arcana of them all. For me has been impossible to crack, or better.... I think it is way too "secret" as to be cracked, because of it's astral encription (when I say "astral", I mean "planetary" or, more directly, the spanish "astral", as "astral body" in physics). I feel I commit sacrilege if I try to decode this arcana. Anyway, the thing is, I had never trusted that Lobster inside that lake. Way too misterious. It gives me the impression it awaits for it's victim, then emerges at lighting speed, to close its claw on one's feet, to then slowly and triumphantly go back to the deepths while it's pray fights uselessly for its life...
I relate that Lobster with those kids. Two, like those dogs barking at the moon... a radiant moon (you, in the XVIII Arcana).
Observe the colors of the Lobster. Same colors of the panorama in your dream.
Whats your take on this Lobster?
Rescently you mention your mother and something messing-up with your family, and that you have not recovered from that yet. Any relation to this? Hope not!

Some of my thoughts on this interesting thread.

If you have a look at the "La Lune" card mentioned at http://www.camoin.com/en/look/look.asp you'll notice the drops don't fall down but are heading UP. As in Gurdjieffs "Food for the moon". Compare this to this alchemic diagram where the dew or "Ros" is heading downhttp://www.arbredor.com/extraits/mutus.html. The lobster as far as I can tell is the "it" (not the real "I") guarded by two dogs (aka the dweller of guardian of the threshold). See Hedsel's Zelator for more on this.

In Gurdjiefffian terms the dogs are (rather nasty) little "i"s that guard the "it" as which has a habit of sending our food to the moon.

Also take note in these symbols; which use the same X configuration. Here we have an active (male/solar) force combining with a female (pasive/lunar) force. The P held by the dove may be considered the "neutral" outcome of these two forces.

Again you can see the dew dropping in Figure 8.

http://www.donmeh-west.com/mainrose.shtml

You'll notice the bottom diagram 10 the two headed figure has "stamped down" or mastered this "lunar" influence.

And a final thought from Mme Salzmann.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself.

That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. You will see that you are two.

One who lies and one who cannot endure lies.

Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself.

When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born."

So in your dream Esoquest perhaps the fear of the sharks are thoughts of "it" and dolphin is "I" and the kids are the equivalent of two dogs?

 

[Guest]

I seem to be replying to your replies to my posts quite a bit lately, Ruth, and I have no problem with that. I think, however, that some of your misconceptions as to how you think I think need to be clarified.

Actually, I thought it was just a question of EsoQuest not liking my interpretation.

This is sentence underlies a hefty misconception. If I had any issues regarding liking or disliking people's replies I would not be posting on this or any forum, and I certainly would not be bearing my soul by posting any dreams. For someone with such issues that is truly asking for it.

I posted this dream because I wanted feedback of all sorts to focus my attention back to details that escaped me, to consider things from different angles and come to my own conclusions as I encourage others to do so. I don't know out of which hat you pulling this rabbit of misconception, but you can throw it out, because it is a judgment.

If someone choses to be distracted or upset by a post they don't like (for whatever reason), then, I would say that's more their issue than mine.

A second "misconception" growing out of the first. You assume I am "distracted" and "upset" (although you speak in "general" terms. Then you say it is my issue. Maybe, I can turn the tables and wonder if it is you who have a problem with what I write. Look at the tone of your post. It is anything but impartial. Look at the tone of my posts. Where is the disctration/upset?

Does this mean that I have to be bothered and upset to disagree with you, especially regarding what amounts to my dream? Look at it this way: if I was to agree with you, I would have to disagree with the other opinions graciously provided by other posters. Would I be upset at them because of that?

And I did not agree with them completely either. I did not post this dream to agree or disagree with anyone. I posted it because I wanted some food for thought, and all of you provided that. I really thought this forum was about exercising discernment. This means accepting and rejecting things. So are you asking me to not be discerning?

Are you sure you are not projecting your own state of mind onto me here?

With a bit of luck, they'll find something or someone to say something they do find more agreeable, acceptable or appropriate. Sounds ok to me. That's how it normally goes.

This is more than a misconception. It is a complete warping and judgment of the ability to exercise discernment. "With a bit of luck" is a bit derogatory in my view, and implies that the factor of conscious rational
understanding is lacking. What luck? One thinks about all that is communicated and makes choices.

Let's reverse this again and say that some people get off on undermining other people's sense of truth because they don't have any, because by undermining others they look good to themselves. Some people are so lost and have lost all hope that they will ever really understand anything that they consider anyone with any sense of inner conviction in terms that makes their insecurity look like objectivity.

These people can be hostile to anyone with any sense of conviction (even though they ignore the fact that such conviction does not come by easily), because they see them as a threat. They are a threat because these people compare themselves, judge themselves as inadequate for having no clear convictions. And that inadequacy is projected to the other. Perhaps it is you who feels that when someone disagrees with you, as we have on other threads, they make you look bad.

Of course after the last little 'episode', I discovered a very 'neat' and predictable way I was having my buttons pushed. This occurs when the focus is moved from what I have to say, its validity or invalidity, and gets put on my character and/or so called behaviour which is, (or always has been) deemed 'a problem'. This means that anything I have to say or have said in the past, can now effectively be dismissed simply by making me the problem, rather than what was said. It used to work very well, but not so much now. The only control I have over it is how I react. I think I've learned something here.

Good. Now we are getting somewhere. You have taken a lot of things personally, that IMO were not personally intended. Why not consider this? You are the one making matters personal first. You admitted you are an agressive person. It's not just you. What you describe happens all the time. People use arguments to belittle others and take on a superior position. It happens all over the place...BUT NOT HERE.

HERE people find a place to learn to address this issue, to learn to separate selfish argument from sincere discussion. We are not face to face. We are not competing for anything. We are impersonal and impartial, or at least that is my aim when posting.

It's called dialogue, a give and take of views. If you noticed, others react ONLY when one person again and again pushes an opinion regardless of the discussion input, and when this person claims it is the others who are not listening, while deafness lies in the pusher. I looked at the 'episode' thread (something about OP's, I guess) and it was you who was trying to push buttons, and you who ended up pushing your own in the process.

If I went on this dream interpretation thread to interpret someone else's dream and tell them "this is what it means, and if you don't accept it you have a problem" others would come down hard on me, and rightly so. It would be totally innapropriate to make judgments against the dreamer just because they do not resonate with my opinion. I don't know this dreamer or the details of their lives. I make propositions and they are discussed.

What you are doing is attempted psychological manipulation. You may feel personally hurt, and maybe you have been. People here can be hard on each other, ruthless in fact, because everyone has been manipulated, and they are sensitive to symptoms of manipulation. They can also go overboard, just like you have gone overboard in seeking to prove me wrong to mitigate the hurt from the other 'episode'.

The only control I have over it is how I react. I think I've learned something here.

Is this learning, or is this a tried and true program? "Control" and "react" are two words that take away your true power and strength to think things through. "Control" implies defensive manipulation, trying to force things together when you feel they are falling apart, and when you react you cannot act. This makes one even more insecure because reactions are always at the mercy of those who act, putting the latter in the position of perpetual attackers. This attitude locks a person in an endless cycle of frustration. If this is learning, it is better to forget.

Imo all people should doubt themselves. If they don't, then they are either compromised by or in serious danger from 4d sts. You can either take that as a warning to be careful or, if you like, an attempt to 'derail and disrupt', although, I'm not really sure what you mean by 'getting too close to the truth of the matter' really is. What is 'the truth of the matter'? I don't think I know.

If Laura doubted herself, this forum would not exist, neither would SOTT or Ponerology or anything else that provides benefit to many people here. What you are saying is true in the spirit of the letter, but not the way you are expressing it. Self-doubt is destructive. The PTB want us to doubt ourselves so we can be easy "food". Psychopaths love it when we doubt ourselves because they can pull our strings. That's what observation tells us. Because if what you say is true, i.e. that "they are either compromised by or in serious danger from 4d sts", then the who spiel about "knowledge protects" is meaningless drivel.

I would say all people should learn when to doubt what they know, and when to stand by their convictions. Nobody said it was going to be easy. But to consider attachment to personal views as an exclusively bad thing, you lack conviction and lack strength, and are then vulnerable to 4D STS, psychopaths and every manipulator far and near. On the other hand, if your convictions are rigid and locked then you deny yourself the ability to grow beyond yourself, and can end up manipulating to keep that rigidity, misinterpreted as stability.

It's a tough path, but before you judge me any further, you have to know that there is no way I can convey the pain and anguish I endured to attain the confidence I have in certain beliefs of mine. I've learned to live for years in TOTAL uncertainty and endured a lot of psychopathic maniplulations because of it. But I refused to call a thought a conviction until I thouroughly tested it. In all of this, however, there comes a point when your beliefs do become part of who you are, and at that point you can apply them diligently. And when that happens, you do not need to defend them, and are not afraid to expand them.

You do, however, learn to recognize when someone challenges them only for the sake of challenging them.

 

[Guest]

Just as we can't hate OP's for living up to their basic nature, we can't hate sharks for doing the same. And yet, both would seem to be our natural enemies.

Actually, the same applies to psychopaths. As one proven psychopath once told me: "I'm just doing the best I can". The difference with OP's (and often with real life sharks) is that they usually leave you alone if you leave them alone. Psychopaths (like these water denizens in my dreams) tend to attack because they are always hungry for the energies of yours truly. The only time they do not attack is when I'm out of the water.

Perhaps the dolphin was 'you in the future' letting you know "all was well" because you've now gained the ability to safely navigate the shark infested water.

You have a point. I have met many new age channelers claiming to channel dolphin beings from the future. I don't think its a matter of navigation, however, but that THESE particular waters were free of corruption.

So in your dream Esoquest perhaps the fear of the sharks are thoughts of "it" and dolphin is "I" and the kids are the equivalent of two dogs?

I agree as to the final conclusion, although I am not absolutely sure if my dream symbolism is 100% faithful to the various tarot interpretations provided here. Some actually interpret the lobster as life emerging from primal waters, a very deep subconscous, but not necessarily malevolent.

If you see the kids, however, as guardians of "it" (and I think the sharks were another form of "guardian" native to the water/astral medium), then all misgivings were thoughts of "it", wondering if I could really make it through this time. I also think these thoughts were related to the presence of the kids who were trying to vibrate fear themeselves to inhibit what was going on.

It poses an interesting question: Just what is the guardian at the threshold? It's effects may be (similar to any adversity confronting us) to make us stronger and "worthy", but in and of itself its only value lies in overcoming it. It is not there to protect anything, IMO, but to protect itself from redundancy once the threshold is crossed.

I actually, met many people representing these kids in the past, and to me they represent two types of inhibitors to progress, the "wild" dog and the "tame" dog: "bad" cop and "good" cop, the intimidator and the beguiler.

In any case, I can and am confronting these things more diligently now (at least inwardly), and my current dreams reflect those confrontations. I had a surge of determination before the above dream presented itself, and have come to realize that such determination propells me much faster. So the dream put the current resistance in perspective with the bigger picture (the sun/moon combo), and I treasure it during times when resistance tries to distort that picture and present itself as more than it really is.

Once again, thank's all for your input.

 

[Cricket]

Compare this to this alchemic diagram where the dew or "Ros" is heading down

You mean the rays at the bottom, or the characters squeezing the rug on first plane?

See Hedsel's Zelator for more on this.

Who/what is Hedsel's Zelator?

In Gurdjiefffian terms the dogs are (rather nasty) little "i"s that guard the "it" as which has a habit of sending our food to the moon.

My understanding is that the little "I's" are not guarding. They just express their selfs. As I grasp it, they dont send the food to the moon: They are just noise and fragments. They bury the real "I", ok, but not that that is their task. It seems to me the dogs on Arcana XVIII are the guardians of the world, not of the "it". This guardians keep hte lobster from ascending towards the Moon/Sun complex above. Or that was my take on the next post of mine to the one you quote.

Also take note in these symbols; which use the same X configuration.

Where you asking? I say it is number 2, 3 and 4.

The P held by the dove may be considered the "neutral" outcome of these two forces.

Is Jung who uses this word, "outcome"? Could it be the third element, and not a result?

Indeed, the drops are falling UP. The ascention of the etereal substance in the alchemical process? This ascention would had to defeat the world opposing it (the dogs), by taming this guardians. EQ gived me this clue when he mention the Lobster as being the primal fish crawling out of the water: The primal essence progressing, growing, transforming it's self towards elevation.
I observe your setting: The tears towards the Moon, thus, food for the Moon.
The fact that this Moon is radiant, or the fact that there is a Sun behind it, gived me elements to identify this process as an alchemical ascention, and not as food being sent to the Moon.
And certainly not a Freudian "inner child".