Super Samurai: Robot beats Japanese master swordsman
- Thread starter Mr.Cyan
- Start date
Denis
Jedi Master
Mr.Cyan said:
God, i just love synchronicities! Just minutes ago i watched that clip on my FB feed that was posted by one of my friends there. Pure poetry in motion!
Thanks for sharing Mr.Cyan. :)
Mr.Cyan said:
I liked the video but I think there's a world of difference (literally) between the machine warrior and the human warrior. The machine is limited by it's mechanical perfection (perfection in this context meaning: that which cannot be improved) and it's perfection is limited only to within the framework of mechanical laws, not withstanding the very slight extension or imprint it might have into the realms of higher awareness (sentience) as a physical machine. But, realistically speaking, I think it's still limited by functional mechanical laws and can only be perfected (improved) to within the context of that framework. But I think the Iaido guy's mastery is only limited to the degree to which his awareness/training allows which always improves each time he cycles with the advancing and retracting of the sword. In a manner of speaking the Iaido guy always begins anew from the endpoint, the beginning point always emerging from the end point and his awareness keeps expanding into the limitlessness each time he repeats that cycle in his training.
Buddy said:
Yes, I got the impression it's more like an advertisement for the manufacturer of the robotic arm. Also, I don't agree that the robot "beat" the master. Notice that the motions of the robotic arm have been prior sampled from the master's movements with 3D motion tracking. Regarding martial arts, there's little coming from the robot itself or the engineer's team. Still, it's fascinating what current technology can achieve in a purely mechanical sense.
I wasn't terribly impressed by it. Typical robotics displayed with a lot of hoopla. I thought the guy was much better and graceful and concentrated and all that. The machine only modeled his movements, not everything that was inside and behind them.
Data said:
It was interesting to watch. But who knows how many times the machine didn't hit the goal and even failed and that wasn't shown, since it just an advert for a machine company. Actually the brand Yaskawa patented the name mechatronics in 1972 but resigned later on again so that we all can use that name today.
Fully agree Gawan, having some background in mechatronics myself, i am pretty sure there were countless tries and adjustments in programming before that robot managed to slice the bean lengthwise :) !
Also fuly agree with Laura & Data, the Iaido swordmaster was way more graceful with the katana than the robotic arm could ever be - and he was definitely not "beaten". There is beauty and grace watching a sword master in full flow, and this was hardly replicated by the robotic arm. Indeed it even had to learn the right angular velocity, and blade positioning from the swordmaster, before "it" could slice through the bundled tatami mats.
Robotic arms may be more precise, accurate, faster, and stronger than the human arm - but under currently technology they always need a team of programmers, and processors that are logic based. Hence there is still a long way to go before they can even replicate a thinking, and fluidly moving swordmaster...
Also fuly agree with Laura & Data, the Iaido swordmaster was way more graceful with the katana than the robotic arm could ever be - and he was definitely not "beaten". There is beauty and grace watching a sword master in full flow, and this was hardly replicated by the robotic arm. Indeed it even had to learn the right angular velocity, and blade positioning from the swordmaster, before "it" could slice through the bundled tatami mats.
Robotic arms may be more precise, accurate, faster, and stronger than the human arm - but under currently technology they always need a team of programmers, and processors that are logic based. Hence there is still a long way to go before they can even replicate a thinking, and fluidly moving swordmaster...
lilies
The Living Force
If you read Miyamoto Musashi's life story, you know how clean a cut on the rose stalk must be. Notice how rude, lifeless and mechanical the robot's cuts are - especially on the yellow fruit. The swordsman might have lost concentration during the thousand cuts in some cases, because of tiredness, but when he cuts with his soul and spirit, those come out a lot nicer than the robot's accidental strikes.
As for the string bean cut, it isn't shown in the video, how Isao cuts it, but a professional Japanese swordsman has no problem cutting mosquitoes (gnats) in flight into two, while standing in a meditative sword-position. This was our Iaido teacher's favorite story from when he was in Japan among the real masters. :)
There is a tenet in their tradition: when a Japanese sword cleaves apart, it restores order.
As for the string bean cut, it isn't shown in the video, how Isao cuts it, but a professional Japanese swordsman has no problem cutting mosquitoes (gnats) in flight into two, while standing in a meditative sword-position. This was our Iaido teacher's favorite story from when he was in Japan among the real masters. :)
There is a tenet in their tradition: when a Japanese sword cleaves apart, it restores order.
sitting
Dagobah Resident
Mr.Cyan said:
Hi Mr.Cyan,
The swordmaster can be "beaten", rather easily, with a few rule changes.
Increasing the number of cuts from 1,000 to 2,000 say would do it. He would wear out. The machine would not. Doubling the cut velocity would also do it. The swordmaster would then appear as if in slow motion. Now these rule changes may not be "fair", but I hope you see the point.
Interesting too is the zen comparison between the two. Both have it. But in absolute terms, the "stillness of mind" of the machine (no mind) is quieter than the one with mind--however well trained. In those terms, the machine again beats man. Simply because there's zero deviation from goal. It's a slippery slope when one's normal definitions get stretched.
A side note:
The machine's "superior" zen was not derived from process. Ours is. We're constantly working through innumerable problems and obstacles in hopes of getting our zen. (Here you can substitute aim for zen.)
I believe something vital comes with this process (hence our intuitive rejection of the machine's superiority). And this acquired vitality not just for us, but for nature as well. Castaneda called it the gluttony of the universe. An innate demand to experience all things possible. A drive for value fulfillment.
It's becoming more clear to me that perhaps this process itself is key--not the outcome. And I'm worrying less and less about the latter. Hopefully enjoying more and more the former. In a strange zen fashion, this non-seeking attitude may actually bring me closer to aim. But I could be wrong.
FWIW.
PS
The beauty of the swordsman's cutting action is undeniable. But someone on the receiving end may have a slightly different opinion. These two thoughts need to be held together I think. :)
Now as a pure art form, this does not apply.
sitting said:
The "stillness of the mind" of the machine is not so quiet if you include the dozens of engineers required to run this machine, all probably scrambling and racing in their thoughts to make it perform well and optimize it to the max, not to mention the massive amount of computing power running in the background that never lessens no matter how often a simple movement is repeated by the robot. The robot alone can do nothing, it is connected with some human operators.
sitting
Dagobah Resident
Data said:
Hi Data,
Your illustration is okay, but not great.
A better one is to see the machine "mind" as its program. The finished one, the one used in the exhibition. Written and tested properly, the code ought not to have errors. Hence it's got stillness. Or zero variability from its goal.
To do what you've described, a new code would include perhaps a random number generator--to effect various sub-routines which would then make the cutting motion variable--and random. The previous stillness now gets polluted, much like a human mind filled with changing emotions.
FWIW.
sitting said:
Hi sitting, thanks for your comments :). I agree with most of them, and i would like to add a few more points on my understanding/interpretation of the differences between the "stillness" of the machine mind, and of the swordmaster's.
The "stillness" of a swordmaster indeed comes from a long process of training - but i do not think it is inferior to the machine no-mind, but rather a different state of being when compared to the machine.
Swordmasters train their mind for years, to understand their weapon, its capabilities and the contraints of their strength and physical abilities. As such when they pratice Iaido moves, they are moving biomechanically with the least amount of energy, towards maximum sustained output at the blade edge to achieve the goal they have decided prior to making a movement. Energy conservation, fluidity of movements and succesfull execution are important concepts in Iaido. In addition, after years of practice with the katana, it has become one with them, and for all intents and purposes an extension of their arm. In comparison, the programming of the machine arm is different - it is logically programmed to move the sword through sets of multiple 3D coordinates in space. Sure it can be programmed to move in more directions, faster, with more accuracy and with more strength than a human, with a clear "aim", purpose and "no deviations" - but that is about the extent of the robotic mind once fully programmed.
The"stillness" of the swordmasters mind in contrast, comes from years of experience, practice and "process", enabling them to be aware of their entire past until that moment in time when they stand facing an opponent. This "stillness" then morphs in their mind contemplating the various future possibilities of the outcomes of both theirs and their opponent's next move. This stillness could be said to be a minor form of expanded consciuousness, like a drop of water in an ocean where the ocean represents all possible future and past outcomes - and then the swordmaster makes their first move - and when they do, they already know the outcome of their actions...like a river moving around and through obstacles.
Also the comment i made about grace and beauty of a swordmaster, was made in reference to it as an artform
Hope this makes sense fwiw
sitting
Dagobah Resident
Mr.Cyan said:
Hi Mr.Cyan,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. And it makes great sense.
I wanted to highlight the original purpose of the form, in addition to its visual beauty.
In Chinese martial arts tradition, the true masters are almost always healers & calligraphers as well. Healing acknowledged by them as a higher calling. Their energy cultivation thus aimed at constructive purposes. Those that can only fight (no matter how well) are not thought of too highly.
The Japanese zen-martial arts tradition got its boost during the Kamakura period. Dominated by the age of the samurai. Thus it's got an uncomfortable undercurrent of aggressive tendencies I think. This is a great danger. You see it in some of their ritual practices (seppuku for example). There's a degree of rigidity within the system as well. And that's one reason (among several) I turned away from it many years ago.
FWIW.
