Sustainable Paleo Diet

Laura said:
Society constituted on the principles of the agrarian surplus and storage way of life cannot manage without the help of the elite and once they have acquired an elite, it is very, very hard to resist their growing demands, and even harder to get rid of them. Moreover, an agrarian society based on accumulating, storing, and dispensing material goods is easily converted to an industrial society, and so it is. Anthropologically and sociologically, that's the short version of how it happened.

This makes me wonder, though, that if we had remained tribal hunter/gatherers (as if there was really a choice), we could never represent the kind of food source that we do now. It also makes me think that the current path of destruction might be the rapid learning path as opposed to a much slower hunter/gatherer path (a kind of analogy to the embodied vs non-embodied development). Based on the anthropology associated with isolated tribal groups studied in the last century, it seems that these groups were degenerates of the long past, so visualizing the ancient tribal hunter/gatherer is difficult.
 
LQB said:
Laura said:
Society constituted on the principles of the agrarian surplus and storage way of life cannot manage without the help of the elite and once they have acquired an elite, it is very, very hard to resist their growing demands, and even harder to get rid of them. Moreover, an agrarian society based on accumulating, storing, and dispensing material goods is easily converted to an industrial society, and so it is. Anthropologically and sociologically, that's the short version of how it happened.

This makes me wonder, though, that if we had remained tribal hunter/gatherers (as if there was really a choice), we could never represent the kind of food source that we do now.

Exactly - we've been 'factory farmed'.

l said:
It also makes me think that the current path of destruction might be the rapid learning path as opposed to a much slower hunter/gatherer path (a kind of analogy to the embodied vs non-embodied development).

I'm not sure that follows, considering what little humanity appears to have learned. Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.
 
anart said:
...
Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.

Then, wouldn't consciously enjoying life as it is, in the present moment and for whatever good we may find, be a way to minimize suffering on this planet ?

And living in a 'hell on earth', isn't it what allows us to grow ? As in Laura's signature :

"He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."

Now, enjoying suffering could be the best of foods for 4D STS !

Which makes me think that if the whole drama is partly intended to feed those 4D beings, at the same time there is the possibility to go beyond and reach higher beings shores.
I guess STO also means to help others, like relieving their suffering, yet sometimes adding to their suffering in order for them to learn the lesson.
Always two sides to deal with...
 
eoste said:
anart said:
...
Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.

Then, wouldn't consciously enjoying life as it is, in the present moment and for whatever good we may find, be a way to minimize suffering on this planet ?

It's a way to minimize one's own suffering, but how many people can really do that, eoste? How many people are really awake enough to even grasp the idea?

e said:
And living in a 'hell on earth', isn't it what allows us to grow ? As in Laura's signature :

"He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."

I didn't suggest otherwise, though it's my understanding that in other realms learning is accomplished in other ways.

e said:
Now, enjoying suffering could be the best of foods for 4D STS !

Not to my understanding. Can you elaborate on why you think that is the case?
 
eoste said:
...Then, wouldn't consciously enjoying life as it is, in the present moment and for whatever good we may find, be a way to minimize suffering on this planet ?...

I don't know about that, but life is full of lessons and learning is certainly "fun."
 
anart said:
e said:
Now, enjoying suffering could be the best of foods for 4D STS !

Not to my understanding. Can you elaborate on why you think that is the case?

Well, I don't think that is the case, only that it could be, when thinking about masochism which might represent one of the best available foods to 4D STS, something like a dessert.
It occurred to me by making a parallel in between suffering and enjoying.
By the way, enjoying to make people suffering may even be a better food source. Just wondering.

Megan said:
eoste said:
...Then, wouldn't consciously enjoying life as it is, in the present moment and for whatever good we may find, be a way to minimize suffering on this planet ?...

I don't know about that, but life is full of lessons and learning is certainly "fun."

As anart said, it's rather a way to minimize one's own suffering, at least...
 
eoste said:
anart said:
...
Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.

Then, wouldn't consciously enjoying life as it is, in the present moment and for whatever good we may find, be a way to minimize suffering on this planet ?

Yes. But you have to be able to do that WHILE doing all you can for those who are still suffering which means you must witness it again and again and again and experience empathy with that suffering at a higher level. Otherwise, you are just shutting out life and reality.

eoste said:
And living in a 'hell on earth', isn't it what allows us to grow ? As in Laura's signature :

"He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."

Indeed. But that doesn't make it good. In the words of Jesus, "there needs be evil, but woe to him through whom evil comes."

eoste said:
Now, enjoying suffering could be the best of foods for 4D STS !

Of course. And that's what makes it hard to face it, witness it, work to end it, empathize with it, because you have to be able to do that all the while still being able to maintain "beginner's mind" and the ability to appreciate beauty and love. Not an easy task, but possible.

eoste said:
Which makes me think that if the whole drama is partly intended to feed those 4D beings, at the same time there is the possibility to go beyond and reach higher beings shores.

Sure. What's your flight plan?

eoste said:
I guess STO also means to help others, like relieving their suffering, yet sometimes adding to their suffering in order for them to learn the lesson.
Always two sides to deal with...

See above: "there needs be evil, but woe to him through whom evil comes."
 
Thank you Laura for your reply, giving me a "flight plan", eyes wide open to life and reality :
  • doing all you can for those who are still suffering
  • "there needs be evil, but woe to him through whom evil comes."
 
anart said:
LQB said:
l said:
It also makes me think that the current path of destruction might be the rapid learning path as opposed to a much slower hunter/gatherer path (a kind of analogy to the embodied vs non-embodied development).

I'm not sure that follows, considering what little humanity appears to have learned. Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.


I also think that hunter/gatherer guys must have had to deal with opposite forces as well, if they had shamans that fought devils (or whatever) that means they were not out of being attacked, plus other dangers from nature, that must have gave them enough opportunities to learn a lot of lessons through "the hard way". Only that they probably didn't use violence against each other as we do in the current agrarian/industrial society.
 
Graalsword said:
anart said:
LQB said:
l said:
It also makes me think that the current path of destruction might be the rapid learning path as opposed to a much slower hunter/gatherer path (a kind of analogy to the embodied vs non-embodied development).

I'm not sure that follows, considering what little humanity appears to have learned. Suffering is food, so suffering has been maximized on this planet and agriculture was a necessary part of getting us where we are today... which is living in a 'hell on earth'.


I also think that hunter/gatherer guys must have had to deal with opposite forces as well, if they had shamans that fought devils (or whatever) that means they were not out of being attacked, plus other dangers from nature, that must have gave them enough opportunities to learn a lot of lessons through "the hard way". Only that they probably didn't use violence against each other as we do in the current agrarian/industrial society.

I think so too, but getting a picture of what the ancient hunter/gatherer looked like is difficult. There is some evidence some shamanic traditions (Nepal and Tibet I think) go back 60,000 years - self-reported by practicing shamans.

On another note, I remember reading Franklin Merrel-Wolf and one of his top-level conclusions that human suffering (current levels) was not enough to bring about the serious change in questioning and thought patterns to motivate personal change on a large scale.
 
Graalsword said:
I also think that hunter/gatherer guys must have had to deal with opposite forces as well, if they had shamans that fought devils (or whatever) that means they were not out of being attacked, plus other dangers from nature, that must have gave them enough opportunities to learn a lot of lessons through "the hard way". Only that they probably didn't use violence against each other as we do in the current agrarian/industrial society.

There was probably intertribal fighting though the scale would be limited, this of course does not factor in an industrial society which would increase the scale of any conflict.

LQB said:
I think so too, but getting a picture of what the ancient hunter/gatherer looked like is difficult. There is some evidence some shamanic traditions (Nepal and Tibet I think) go back 60,000 years - self-reported by practicing shamans.

On another note, I remember reading Franklin Merrel-Wolf and one of his top-level conclusions that human suffering (current levels) was not enough to bring about the serious change in questioning and thought patterns to motivate personal change on a large scale.

What I put in bold is what I think is at least part of the necessity for our current situation. This scale of misery forces us to figure out why things are the way they are, but it seems that things aren't "bad" enough yet to motivate the mass to act. :shock:
 
bngenoh said:
Graalsword said:
I also think that hunter/gatherer guys must have had to deal with opposite forces as well, if they had shamans that fought devils (or whatever) that means they were not out of being attacked, plus other dangers from nature, that must have gave them enough opportunities to learn a lot of lessons through "the hard way". Only that they probably didn't use violence against each other as we do in the current agrarian/industrial society.

There was probably intertribal fighting though the scale would be limited, this of course does not factor in an industrial society which would increase the scale of any conflict.

LQB said:
I think so too, but getting a picture of what the ancient hunter/gatherer looked like is difficult. There is some evidence some shamanic traditions (Nepal and Tibet I think) go back 60,000 years - self-reported by practicing shamans.

On another note, I remember reading Franklin Merrel-Wolf and one of his top-level conclusions that human suffering (current levels) was not enough to bring about the serious change in questioning and thought patterns to motivate personal change on a large scale.

What I put in bold is what I think is at least part of the necessity for our current situation. This scale of misery forces us to figure out why things are the way they are, but it seems that things aren't "bad" enough yet to motivate the mass to act. :shock:

Yes, but I should add that Merrell-Wolf wrote that many decades ago. It seems possible to me that since that time, the conditioning/programming of the population has proceeded to the point (maybe for the majority of people) where increased suffering may only result in external projection, blame, and scapegoating as oppose to true internal questioning and reflection - a worthy goal for the likes of 4D STS, as any gate to escape is cut off.
 
LQB said:
Yes, but I should add that Merrell-Wolf wrote that many decades ago. It seems possible to me that since that time, the conditioning/programming of the population has proceeded to the point (maybe for the majority of people) where increased suffering may only result in external projection, blame, and scapegoating as oppose to true internal questioning and reflection - a worthy goal for the likes of 4D STS, as any gate to escape is cut off.

Agreed, suffering as a means of learning is a double edged sword, we've gotta learn how to use suffering and a lot of it is just winging it if you don't have a way, and in my case even if you do. ;)
 
Here's the latest from Salatin on the general subject from the latest issue of the WAPF Journal:

Sustainable Meat: No Myth

Written by Joel Salatin
July 20 2012

On April 12, 2012, the New York Times published an opinion piece by James E. McWilliams, vegan author of Just Food: Where Locavores Get It Wrong and How We Can Truly Eat Responsibly. McWilliams argues that pasture-based animal husbandry is neither environmentally friendly nor sustainable. (To read the article, visit www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/opinion/the-myth-of-sustainable-meat.html?_r=1&ref=opinion.) We are happy to publish the following reply by Joel Salatin.

The recent editorial by James McWilliams titled "The Myth of Sustainable Meat" contains enough factual errors and skewed assumptions to fill a book, and normally I would dismiss this out of hand as too much nonsense to merit a response. But since the article specifically mentioned my own Polyface Farm, a rebuttal is appropriate. For a more comprehensive rebuttal, read my book Folks, This Ain't Normal.
THE METHANE ARGUMENT

Let's go point by point. First, that grass grazing cows emit more methane than grainfed. This statement is factually false. Actually, the amount of methane emitted by fermentation is the same whether it occurs inside the cow or outside. Whether the feed is eaten by an herbivore or left to rot on its own, the methane generated is identical.

Wetlands emit some 95 percent of all methane in the world; herbivores are insignificant enough not to even merit consideration. Anyone who really wants to stop methane needs to start draining wetlands. Quick, or we'll all perish!

I assume McWilliams is figuring that since it takes longer to grow a beef on grass than on grain, the difference in time adds days to the emissions. But grain production carries a host of maladies far worse than methane. This is simply cherry-picking one negative out of many positives to smear the foundation of how soil builds: herbivore pruning, perennial disturbance-rest cycles, solar-grown biomass and decomposition. This is like demonizing marriage because even a good one will include some arguments.
THE LAND ARGUMENT

As for his notion that it takes too much land to grass-finish, his figures of ten acres per animal assume the current normal mismanagement of pastures. At Polyface, we call it Neanderthal management because most livestock farmers have not yet joined the 20th century with electric fencing, ponds, piped water, and modern scientific aerobic composting (only as old as chemical fertilization).

Hence, while his figures comparing the relative production of grain to grass may sound compelling, they are like comparing the learning opportunities under a terrible teacher versus a magnificent teacher. Many farmers, in many different climates, are now using space-age technology, bio-mimicry, and close management to get exponential increases in forage production.

The rain forest, by the way, is not being cut to graze cattle. It's being cut to grow transgenic corn and soybeans. North America had twice as many herbivores five hundred years ago than it does today due to the pulsing of the predator-prey-pruning cycle on perennial prairie polycultures. And that was without any corn or soybeans at all.
GLOBAL WARMING

Apparently if you lie often and big enough, some people will believe it: pastured chicken has a 20 percent greater impact on global warming? Says who? The truth is that those industrial chicken houses are not stand-alone structures. They require square miles of grain to be carted into them, and square miles of land to handle the manure. Of course, many times that land is not enough. To industrial farmers' relief, more often than not a hurricane comes along just in time to flush the toilet, kill the fish, and send pathogens into the ocean. That's a nice way to reduce the alleged footprint, but it's devilish sleight of hand with the data to assume that ecological toxicity compensates for the true land base needed to sustain a factory farm.
CHICKENS AND PIGS

While it's true that at Polyface our omnivores (poultry and pigs) do eat local GMO-(genetically modified organism) free grain in addition to the forage, the land base required to feed and metabolize the manure is no different from that needed to sustain the same animals in a confinement setting. Even if they ate zero pasturage, the land is the same. The only difference is our animals get sunshine, exercise, fresh pasture salad bars, fresh air, and a respectful life.

Chickens walking on pasture certainly do not have any more leg sprains than those walking in a confinement facility. To suggest otherwise, as McWilliams does, is sheer nonsense. Walking is walking—and it's generally considered to be a healthy practice, unless you're a tyrant.

Interestingly, in a lone concession to compassion, McWilliams decries ranging hogs with rings in their noses to keep them from rooting, lamenting that this is "one of their most basic instincts." Notice that he does not reconcile this moral imperative with his love affair toward confinement hog factories. Nothing much to use their noses for in there.

For the record, Polyface never rings hog noses, and in the few cases where we've purchased hogs with rings, we take them out. We want them to fully express their pigness. By moving them frequently using modern electric fencing, polyethylene water piping, high tech float valves, and scientifically designed feed dispensers, we do not create nor suffer the problems encountered by earlier large-scale outdoor hog operations a hundred years ago. McWilliams has apparently never had the privilege of visiting a first-rate modern highly managed pastured hog operation. He thinks we're all stuck in the early 1900s, and that's a shame because he'd discover the answers to his concerns are already here. I wonder where his paycheck comes from?
ECONOMIC REALITIES

Then McWilliams moves on to the argument that economic realities would kick in if pastured livestock became normal, driving farmers to scale up and end up right where we are today. What a clever ploy: justify the horrible by eliminating the alternatives. At Polyface, we certainly do not discourage scaling up—we actually encourage it. We think more pasture-based farms should scale up. Between the current abysmal state of mismanagement, however, and efficient operations, is an astronomical opportunity to enjoy economic and ecological advantages.

McWilliams is basing his data and assumptions on the poorest, the average or below. If you want to demonize something, always pick the lowest performers. But if you compare the best the industry has to offer with the best the pasture-based systems have to offer, the factory farms don't have a prayer. Using portable infrastructure, tight management and techno-glitzy tools, farmers running pastured hog operations practically eliminate capitalization costs and vet bills.
SOIL FERTILITY

Finally, McWilliams moves to the knock-out punch in his discussion of nutrient cycling, charging specifically that Polyface is a charade because it depends on grain from industrial farms to maintain soil fertility. First of all, at Polyface we do not assume that all nutrient movement is antienvironmental. In fact, one of the biggest reasons for animals in nature is to move nutrients uphill, against the natural gravitational flow from high ground to low ground. This is why low lands and valleys are fertile and the uplands are less so.

Animals are the only mechanism nature has to defy this natural downward flow. Fortunately, predators make the prey animals want to lounge on high ground (where they can see their enemies), which insures that manure will concentrate on high look-out spots rather than in the valleys. Perhaps this is why no ecosystem exists that is devoid of animals. The fact is that nutrient movement is inherently nature-healing.

But, it doesn't move very far. And herein lies the difference between grain used at Polyface and that used by the industry: we care where ours comes from. It's not just a commodity. It has an origin and an ending, start to finish, farmer to eater. The closer we can connect the carbon cycles, the more environmentally normal we will become.

Secondly, herbivores are the exception to the entire negative nutrient flow argument because by pruning back the forage to restart the rapid biomass accumulation photosynthetic engine, the net carbon flow compensates for anything lost through harvest. Herbivores do not require tillage or annuals and that is why all historically deep soils have been created by them, not by omnivores.

It's fascinating that McWilliams wants to demonize pasture-based livestock for not closing all the nutrient loops, but has no problem, apparently, with the horrendous nutrient toxicity like dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico the size of New Jersey created by chemical fertilizer run off to grow grain so that the life of a beef could be shortened. Unbelievable. In addition, this is one reason Polyface continues to fight for relaxing food safety regulations to allow on-farm slaughtering, precisely so we can indeed keep all these nutrients on the farm and not send them to the rendering plants.

If the greenies who don't want historically normal farm activities like slaughter to occur on rural acreage could understand how devastating these government regulations actually are to the environmental economy, perhaps McWilliams wouldn't have this bullet in his arsenal. And yes, human waste should be put back on the land as well, to help close the loop.
IN A PERFECT WORLD

Third, at Polyface, we struggle upstream. Historically, omnivores were salvage operations. Hogs ate spoiled milk, whey, acorns, chestnuts, spoiled fruit and a host of other farmstead products. Ditto for chickens, who dined on kitchen scraps and garden refuse. That today 50 percent of all the human edible food produced in the world goes into landfills or greenie-endorsed composting operations rather than through omnivores is both ecologically and morally reprehensible.

At Polyface, we've tried for many, many years to get kitchen scraps back from restaurants to feed our poultry, but the logistics are a nightmare. The fact is that in America we have created a segregated food and farming system.

In the perfect world, Polyface would not sell eggs. Instead, every kitchen, both domestic and commercial, would have enough chickens proximate to handle all the scraps. This would eliminate the entire egg industry and current heavy grain feeding paradigm.

At Polyface, we only purport to be doing the best we can do as we struggle through a deviant, historically abnormal food and farming system. We didn't create what is and we may not solve it perfectly. But we're sure a lot farther toward real solutions than McWilliams can imagine. And if society would move where we want to go, and the government regulators would let us move where we need to go, and the industry would not try to criminalize us as we try to go there, we'll all be a whole lot better off and the earthworms will dance.



This article appeared in Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and the Healing Arts, the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation, Summer 2012.
 
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