Thank you for recommending Trapped in the Mirror
- Thread starter ajseph 21
- Start date
For learning about how we are programmed and how to control them, we recommend all of the books listed under the Narcissism Big 5 books. Then, to learn more about how our mind works on to the Cognitive Science and Neuroscience books. :)
Zadius Sky
The Living Force
ajseph 21 said:
There's more from this book, if you haven't had a chance to see it, in this thread: Negative Introject (from Chapter 18 in "Trapped in the Mirror).
:)
Thank you Zadius Sky and Nienna Eluch. I can definitely relate to the negative introject description and see it as a "nagger" that picks up every personal flaw or other peoples' flaws and over emphasizes them. I've read the myth of sanity and will be ordering unholy hungers soon so again thanks for the recommendations. Also Elan's description of personality seeking fame and the self wanting to relax reminded me of ISOTM and Gurdjeff's teachings. It's good to see these books connect to a larger picture.
SMM
The Living Force
ajseph 21 said:
I'd like to join you ajseph21 in saying thank you for the recommendation :) Chapter 13 & 16 spoke volumes to me. I had a Eureka! moment when I opened the book for the first time to read & thought "This is not my voice!" Not sure how too fully explain it here but it's close to the "nagger" who subjects everything to judgement & criticism as you stated above with its constant chatter.
Since i'm currently living with my mother, and with recent interactions, it was about time i actually read the book which i bought last year. The sun was shining and my neighbour hammering through a wall, so i took myself outside to read it.
I figured i'd share a few thoughts and realisations which, though i'm only on page 30, i figure to share now. And i hope it's ok i do here. I'm finding the book very helpful already.
So far, i've underlined something on every page, sometimes a lot. Going from the few notes i've popped in the back; i always wondered why, even when (only) i was being beaten and my father descended into chronic alcoholism with no more redeeming features, why my mother felt it right to stay. At the time, and throughout, she claimed it was to 'keep the family together', this clearly wasn't the case because it hadn't been cohesive for a few years and the situation was only becoming life threateningly worse - i was on the child protection register by 14 yo.
It seems apparent now that when they got together he was a source of self-esteem for her, being a grandiose narc himself. Verging on a secondary psychopath. And i expect she hoped for him to renew himself and for them to become the shining couple they once perceived themselves to be. PLus it was a way of deflecting any responsibility on her poor choices and behaviour, to flip the (24 carat") golden child to the scapegoat.
As the book states, the full narc doesn't fancy the burden of children for long. At least to our knowledge, he was cheating on her by the time i was 12; and he wasn't really around much anyway, on 'army exercise' for 3-6 months at a time during my early childhood. I remember feeling responsible for her safety in the dead of night, the helpless person she always behaved as. Then he found other ways to escape later on. As i've realised, he managed 12 years of my life before he absconded which is pretty telling.
Skip to today: I understood she enjoyed her work because it meant she had little interactions with others, even if the job filling vending machines wasn't as glamourous as she would hope for. I think she enjoys it because it enables her to protect her self image and reap attention as she goes. She is known as the 'smiling lady'; her job on the side selling food at football match, which doesn't even pay enough to justify doing it, reaps similar benefits. She repeatedly receives 'gifts' from fans who adore her happy demeanour. I always found it very curious that she didn't have any friends. Sure, people visit twice a year, and they do strike me as carrying similar traits - oddly similar tbh; marrying alcoholics and grandiose characters who then slide into oblivion in one way or another.
This 'smiling lady' face i often only see when participating alongside unspoken rules. Otherwise in an instant she will burst out with whatever shaming or critical comment is first to pop into her head. Shaming has always been the go-to control tactic with her; it has been clear to me she is very sensitive to this herself. Favourite chants were: "So and so can run rings round you.", "You'll end up in the gutter" - the exact words in the book!
Also, growing up, i was slightly encouraged with my 10 year old ambitions to be a zoologist, but intellectual pursuits weren't her forte. So when i showed promise at 12 in a scene where i died convincingly (interestingly), she was on the phone to the nearest drama 'school' and i was enrolled. From there, both her and my Nana would often recite their fantasies of how i would be funding their trips to the Oscars, hairdressers and by-proxy, their own spotlight. My mother did let on she never did pursue her 'dreams' of becoming an actress, because "she was too fat". Nana's words probably. It didn't stop Nana stuffing her face with sweets - probably to fend off Nanas own fears of being overshadowed - because mum was very pretty when she looked after herself. It worked, she remained the adored matriarch, especially after her death. I adored her too, only now i see the bigger, more damaging, picture.
At around the same age of 11/12, my deteriorating father gave me a pencil case for my birthday, inside it read: "Who loves ya babe", from a movie apparently. This struck me as odd since it was a kind of expression or sentiment never uttered in the house. He was only really happy when i was 'by his side' demonstrating my physical prowess as the 'fruit of his loins'. Though his consideration didn't seem to extend to my well-being, as my mother had to repeatedly remind him that i 'needed to eat'. Now i understand it was obvious it would be seen by my classmates and my teachers. SAme with my mother, the other times she fed me as much cash as necessary to "get me out of the house".
Also as noted in the book: Privacy didn't exist. My mothers excuse was my messy room, which enabled her to inspect my apparent life. She continued to use it as reasoning for why i was beaten. My father ripped my door off for when i was 14. My brother, within days, read my only diary - 2 pages - before i found out and gave that up. Recently i actually caught my mum peeping through a gap in the door of a room i was in - i calledher out on it and she was very embarrassed; she lied it off, a familiar tactic.
My protestation to all and more led to the constant contradiction - also detailed in the book - of my feelings, thoughts, and my assessment of my-self in it's entirety. It left me feeling rather unhinged; especially during. But i felt this was intended so resisted with all my being. And later on in my 20's, i definitely pursued friendships with people who actually could plan entire weeks of our life in advance! 'Thinking for me' as the book details.
So i've yet to reach the negative introject aspect of the book, and i may comment there as i read on. But this book threw up quite a few thoughts and i think i'm finding it even more instructive than The Narcissistic Family, which had quite an impact.
The above is a mixture of a vent and a happy realisation, even if i wasn't completely in the dark. Also, i could analyse every and all incidents and try to pry my past for more, but to be honest, it's even clearer now what i was dealing with and the reasons. Even 'qualified friends' aren't familiar with material here, and in the other recommended books, so before coming to the forum, the distorted behaviour was actually justified! Narcissism and psychopathy (obviously) are painfully unknown, even for people dealing with disturbed characters/creatures on a daily basis. As i read further i'll probably be confronted with more personal issues that continue on in myself, though i've begun to get a handle on some of it, more work is required.
Querying our family tree, and knowing my mum's parents, it is rather clear - opera singers and female wrestlers, and their extramarital affairs - that the trait has been a long time in the making. My Dad too, though his own alcoholic and abusive father left when he was very young, and his own mother died long before i was born. To see his many siblings, they've followed a very similar path to annihilation too, mostly through alcoholism.
My relations with my mother are very much: do what's best for you both. And, for now, it works.
So thank you for bring the book to the RRL - it's a hard read for me actually, and will become harder as i look, once again, at myself. But the examples are so on point it's hard to ignore, if you sincerely want to make some changes.
I figured i'd share a few thoughts and realisations which, though i'm only on page 30, i figure to share now. And i hope it's ok i do here. I'm finding the book very helpful already.
So far, i've underlined something on every page, sometimes a lot. Going from the few notes i've popped in the back; i always wondered why, even when (only) i was being beaten and my father descended into chronic alcoholism with no more redeeming features, why my mother felt it right to stay. At the time, and throughout, she claimed it was to 'keep the family together', this clearly wasn't the case because it hadn't been cohesive for a few years and the situation was only becoming life threateningly worse - i was on the child protection register by 14 yo.
It seems apparent now that when they got together he was a source of self-esteem for her, being a grandiose narc himself. Verging on a secondary psychopath. And i expect she hoped for him to renew himself and for them to become the shining couple they once perceived themselves to be. PLus it was a way of deflecting any responsibility on her poor choices and behaviour, to flip the (24 carat") golden child to the scapegoat.
As the book states, the full narc doesn't fancy the burden of children for long. At least to our knowledge, he was cheating on her by the time i was 12; and he wasn't really around much anyway, on 'army exercise' for 3-6 months at a time during my early childhood. I remember feeling responsible for her safety in the dead of night, the helpless person she always behaved as. Then he found other ways to escape later on. As i've realised, he managed 12 years of my life before he absconded which is pretty telling.
Skip to today: I understood she enjoyed her work because it meant she had little interactions with others, even if the job filling vending machines wasn't as glamourous as she would hope for. I think she enjoys it because it enables her to protect her self image and reap attention as she goes. She is known as the 'smiling lady'; her job on the side selling food at football match, which doesn't even pay enough to justify doing it, reaps similar benefits. She repeatedly receives 'gifts' from fans who adore her happy demeanour. I always found it very curious that she didn't have any friends. Sure, people visit twice a year, and they do strike me as carrying similar traits - oddly similar tbh; marrying alcoholics and grandiose characters who then slide into oblivion in one way or another.
This 'smiling lady' face i often only see when participating alongside unspoken rules. Otherwise in an instant she will burst out with whatever shaming or critical comment is first to pop into her head. Shaming has always been the go-to control tactic with her; it has been clear to me she is very sensitive to this herself. Favourite chants were: "So and so can run rings round you.", "You'll end up in the gutter" - the exact words in the book!
Also, growing up, i was slightly encouraged with my 10 year old ambitions to be a zoologist, but intellectual pursuits weren't her forte. So when i showed promise at 12 in a scene where i died convincingly (interestingly), she was on the phone to the nearest drama 'school' and i was enrolled. From there, both her and my Nana would often recite their fantasies of how i would be funding their trips to the Oscars, hairdressers and by-proxy, their own spotlight. My mother did let on she never did pursue her 'dreams' of becoming an actress, because "she was too fat". Nana's words probably. It didn't stop Nana stuffing her face with sweets - probably to fend off Nanas own fears of being overshadowed - because mum was very pretty when she looked after herself. It worked, she remained the adored matriarch, especially after her death. I adored her too, only now i see the bigger, more damaging, picture.
At around the same age of 11/12, my deteriorating father gave me a pencil case for my birthday, inside it read: "Who loves ya babe", from a movie apparently. This struck me as odd since it was a kind of expression or sentiment never uttered in the house. He was only really happy when i was 'by his side' demonstrating my physical prowess as the 'fruit of his loins'. Though his consideration didn't seem to extend to my well-being, as my mother had to repeatedly remind him that i 'needed to eat'. Now i understand it was obvious it would be seen by my classmates and my teachers. SAme with my mother, the other times she fed me as much cash as necessary to "get me out of the house".
Also as noted in the book: Privacy didn't exist. My mothers excuse was my messy room, which enabled her to inspect my apparent life. She continued to use it as reasoning for why i was beaten. My father ripped my door off for when i was 14. My brother, within days, read my only diary - 2 pages - before i found out and gave that up. Recently i actually caught my mum peeping through a gap in the door of a room i was in - i calledher out on it and she was very embarrassed; she lied it off, a familiar tactic.
My protestation to all and more led to the constant contradiction - also detailed in the book - of my feelings, thoughts, and my assessment of my-self in it's entirety. It left me feeling rather unhinged; especially during. But i felt this was intended so resisted with all my being. And later on in my 20's, i definitely pursued friendships with people who actually could plan entire weeks of our life in advance! 'Thinking for me' as the book details.
So i've yet to reach the negative introject aspect of the book, and i may comment there as i read on. But this book threw up quite a few thoughts and i think i'm finding it even more instructive than The Narcissistic Family, which had quite an impact.
The above is a mixture of a vent and a happy realisation, even if i wasn't completely in the dark. Also, i could analyse every and all incidents and try to pry my past for more, but to be honest, it's even clearer now what i was dealing with and the reasons. Even 'qualified friends' aren't familiar with material here, and in the other recommended books, so before coming to the forum, the distorted behaviour was actually justified! Narcissism and psychopathy (obviously) are painfully unknown, even for people dealing with disturbed characters/creatures on a daily basis. As i read further i'll probably be confronted with more personal issues that continue on in myself, though i've begun to get a handle on some of it, more work is required.
Querying our family tree, and knowing my mum's parents, it is rather clear - opera singers and female wrestlers, and their extramarital affairs - that the trait has been a long time in the making. My Dad too, though his own alcoholic and abusive father left when he was very young, and his own mother died long before i was born. To see his many siblings, they've followed a very similar path to annihilation too, mostly through alcoholism.
My relations with my mother are very much: do what's best for you both. And, for now, it works.
So thank you for bring the book to the RRL - it's a hard read for me actually, and will become harder as i look, once again, at myself. But the examples are so on point it's hard to ignore, if you sincerely want to make some changes.
I'm going through Trapped in the Mirror right after finishing Without Conscience and The Sociopath Next Door. It sounds like a lot of the narcissist parents are psychopaths. When the adult children of narcissistic parents seek mates to fulfill roles by their narcissist parents, psychopaths get an easy victim. But victim isn't quite the right word in this situation, because the victim is some kind of masochist who gets the abuse that they are seeking.
Not that an individual doesn't bear responsibility for who they choose as mates, but I'm not sure its as simple as them being masochists either. Rather, it seems to me that the programming inculcated in children of narcissistic parents causes individuals to seek out what they're familiar with and what they know as "love" - because its mostly what they know. Also, though there do exist parent/child relationships that are largely filled with abuse, most would seem to be a mixture, probably along a broad spectrum - with "loving behavior" thrown into the mix. The problem seems to be that most people have little instruction and education of what narcissistic behavior looks like compared to healthier modes and models. So they unconsciously seek what they're used to; what seems "normal". But from the outside it certainly looks like some are masochistic because we're as unaware of their internal drivers as they are.