The code of the Psychopath according to Gurdjieff?

[Johnno]

Gurdjieff has another word for psychopaths, it was the Hasnamuss which I've read in Persian translates to s-h-i-t soul . Gurdjieff mad up a checklist which could almost be considered a code of honour amongst these theives, robbers, conmen, murderers and captains of industry. The list is as follows:

(1) Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious
(2) The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray
(3) The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures
(4) The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by Nature
(5) The attempt by every kind of artificiality to conceal from others what in their opinion are onea��s physical defects
(6) The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved
(7) The striving to be not what one is.

Now, lets compare this to Hare's list from the Glossary in regards to psychopaths.

Glib and superficial charm;
Grandiose sense of self-worth;
Need for stimulation;
Pathological lying;
Conning and manipulativeness;
Lack of remorse or guilt;
Shallow affect;
Callousness and lack of empathy;
Parasitic lifestyle;
Poor behavioral controls;
Promiscuous sexual behavior;
Early behavior problems;
Lack of realistic, long-term goals;
Impulsivity;
Irresponsibility;
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions;
Many short-term marital relationships;
Juvenile delinquency;
Revocation of conditional release;
Criminal versatility.

Which various points of Gurdjieff's match the one's of Hare?

For example Hare's "Parasitic lifestyle" matches Girdjieff's "The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved."

Are there any that don't fit?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

(1) Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious

Callousness and lack of empathy;
Shallow affect;
Pathological lying;
Conning and manipulativeness;
Poor behavioral controls;
Promiscuous sexual behavior;
Early behavior problems;
Many short-term marital relationships;
Juvenile delinquency;

(2) The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray

Parasitic lifestyle;
Criminal versatility.
Lack of remorse or guilt;

(3) The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures

Callousness and lack of empathy;
Need for stimulation;
Poor behavioral controls;

(4) The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by Nature

Lack of realistic, long-term goals;
Impulsivity;
Irresponsibility;
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions;

(5) The attempt by every kind of artificiality to conceal from others what in their opinion are one's physical defects

Grandiose sense of self-worth;
Glib and superficial charm;

(6) The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved

Grandiose sense of self-worth;
Revocation of conditional release;
Lack of remorse or guilt;

(7) The striving to be not what one is.

Glib and superficial charm;
Grandiose sense of self-worth;
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions;

 

[velita]

P.D.Ouspensky,basing himself on G.I.Gurdjieff's teachings,explains in The Fourth Way (p.299) the existence of 4 types of men :the Householder, the Tramp (no values),the Lunatic (wrong values),the Hasnamuss(having at the same time tramp and lunatic features).This last mix does seem like a recipe for Psychopath,for example: asocial behavior (lunatic) AND not caring for the consequences (tramp).

 

[Ryan]

Here are some excerpts on the Hasnamuss from "Beelzebub's Tales":

At this point Hassein looked up at Beelzebub and said: "Dear Grandfather, more than once in your talks you have used the expression 'hasnamuss. ' Until now I have understood, merely from the intonation of your voice and the consonance of the word itself, that by this expression you designated certain three-brained beings you always set apart from others as if they deserved 'objective contempt. ' Be kind, as always, and explain to me the real meaning of this word." Whereupon Beelzebub, with a smile peculiar to him, replied: "As regards the 'type' of three-brained being for whom I have adopted this expression, I will tell you at the proper time; but meanwhile know that this word designates the already defined common presence of any three-brained being—whether consisting of the planetary body alone or already coated with higher being-bodies—in whom for some reason or other data have not been crystallized for the divine impulse of Objective Conscience." With no further explanation of the word "hasnamuss," Beelzebub continued

"In order to represent clearly to yourself and understand just why this peculiar craze, proper to him alone, arose in the individuality of that Persian king, you must know that at the period of the Tikliamishian civilization, in the town of 'Chiklaral,' a learned three-brained being by the name of Harnakhoom—whose essence later became crystallized into what is called an 'Eternal Hasnamuss Individual'—invented the notion that any old metal you like, found in abundance on the surface of that planet, could easily be transformed into the rare metal 'gold', and that all you needed to know for this was one very small secret. "This pernicious invention of his became widely spread there and, having become crystallized in the presence of the beings of that time, passed from generation to generation and gradually took the form of a maleficent, fantastic science under the name of 'alchemy'—the very name of that great science which had indeed existed there as a branch of genuine knowledge during long-past epochs when the consequences of the properties of the organ kundabuffer had not yet been completely crystallized in the presence of their ancestors — a science that could have been most useful, or indeed essential, for all three-brained beings there, even of contemporary times. "Now at that period to which my tale relates, this Persian king needed for one or another of his undoubtedly hasnamussian aims a large amount of the metal called 'gold,' rare on the surface of the Earth; and as he had heard about this method, invented by the future Hasnamuss Individual Harnakhoom, he was eager to obtain gold by so easy a means. "When this Persian king had definitely decided to obtain gold by means of alchemy, he realized then and there with the whole of his being that he did not yet know that 'little secret' without which it was absolutely impossible to fulfill this desire So he began to ponder how to find out that 'little secret '

"The second Babylonian teaching, which had many followers and, passing through the generations also reached your contemporary favorites, was based on one of the atheistic theories of that period. "In this teaching of the terrestrial hasnamussian candidates of that time, it was stated over and over again that there is no 'God' in the world, much less any 'soul' in man, and that therefore all the arguments and discussions about the 'soul' are nothing but the delirium of sick visionaries.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Thanks Ryan. Gurdjieff describes ponerization, cointelpro, and a main feature of pathocracy!

 

[sigh]

As this thread is designated 'sticky' I will assume that the forum administrator has deemed it's content or future content to be 'worthy' and/or even 'esteemed' - either that or the author has some drag. I will therefore apologise in advance to both for any 'hurt feelings' that my contribution may unintentinally cause... if even only initially.

True to all of Hare's criteria, Gurdjieff himself was a psychopath... not that there is anything wrong or even bad about being born a psychopath per se... we all are what we are and not even an imastun should be faulted for making the best of an 'almost' impossible situation. Further, Gurdjieff worked at it and became a master psychopath... attracting hundreds of 'lessor' psychopaths into his circle... the leading psychopath of his time even... in fact he may have been second only to the greatest psychopath in modern history, Jesus of Nazereth.

Gurdjieff's criteria of a psychopath, somewhat vague and incomplete next to Hare's, is cleverly disguised in an effort take the spotlight from himself - which of course only helps to prove my claim.

I would have been very interested in what Cleckley might have had to say about Gurdjieff had he had the good fortune to have studied, and studied with, him. Gurdjieff was unique among psychopaths in that he knew that he was one... and further that he bravely wondered if it might be desirable and even possible to transcend his given mental state and actually develop a conscience.

Although buried beneath layers of analogy, Gurdjieff's literature Herald..., Beelzebub's Tales..., Meetings..., Life is Real... and Views... speaks of how he attempted and possibly even achieved this transformation before his death.

 

[anart]

Why would anyone have 'hurt feelings' over four paragraphs of pure, unadulterated nonsense?

You either have no understanding of psychopathy or you have no understanding of Gurdjieff, or both - difficult to tell at this point.

Please take the time to get up to speed on the material before posting further nonsense - or at the very least - post data to back up your assertions ( I think that may be quite difficult for you in this case).

 

[Bernhard]

...in fact he may have been second only to the greatest psychopath in modern history, Jesus of Nazereth.

Nevermind your interesting view on Gurdjieff, but could you please explain why you consider Jesus the greatest psychopath in modern history?
Who do you think Jesus was and what is your definition for "psychopath" to begin with?
Thank you.

 

[ark]

not that there is anything wrong or even bad about being born a psychopath per se... we all are what we are.

When you wrote "we", did you mean "I"? I guess you did, because how can you tell anything about people you did not study?

 

[sigh]

Although I only spent about fifteen years in the Gurdjieff Work ('88-'03)... a paltry sum I admit... and at a junior level at that... only managing two summer intensive periods... and of course never meeting the man himself... I did bask in the presence of Mme. de Salzmann on one occasion and on several occasions that of Michel de Salzmann before I left to try working in life without the benefit of a group... at first on my own but eventually with the help of a small team of psychotherapists.

My post was simply a statement of my understanding as it resulted from my trying to fathom the gist of Gurdjieff's teaching... and forming my own impartial judgment, proper to myself alone. Did I obtain the specific benefit for myself which he anticipated and for which he wished for me with all his being?

Yes, I think I'm on the way... but with more than a long way to go. Am I going to try and convince the members who posted their reactions above? No... it is good that I carry on as before... if there are other members of this forum who viewed my initial post and it has left them in question... this is good also.

 

[anart]

Although I only spent about fifteen years in the Gurdjieff Work ('88-'03)... a paltry sum I admit... and at a junior level at that... only managing two summer intensive periods... and of course never meeting the man himself... I did bask in the presence of Mme. de Salzmann on one occasion and on several occasions that of Michel de Salzmann before I left

Yes --- of course you did. That's why you now troll internet forums trying to get emotional reactions of out sincere people.

Not even a very creative attempt, actually.

to try working in life without the benefit of a group... at first on my own but eventually with the help of a small team of psychotherapists.

'Sure' you did.

My post was simply a statement of my understanding as it resulted from my trying to fathom the gist of Gurdjieff's teaching...

How unfortunate for you that after trying to 'fathom' you came away with such merde.

and forming my own impartial judgment, proper to myself alone. Did I obtain the specific benefit for myself which he anticipated and for which he wished for me with all his being?

I thought you said you 'never met the man himself' - ridiculous - you really need to work on your troll technique.

Yes, I think I'm on the way..

right.

. but with more than a long way to go.

uh huh.

Am I going to try and convince the members who posted their reactions above?

Did you not get the emotional reactions you were looking for, so now you are trying a tiny bit harder? Pleeeeeeezzzzz.

No... it is good that I carry on as before...

And how was that - trolling internet forums for emotional reactions you cannot get here?

if there are other members of this forum who viewed my initial post and it has left them in question... this is good also.

No, actually it's not 'good' by any stretch of the imagination - it would indicate that the person who read your post and came away with such 'questions' is evidencing rather severe mental instability.

Move along now, ~deep sigh~ this is not the forum for you.

 

[PepperFritz]

So, is this how you intend to go on? Drop pearls of wisdom then decline to answer any questions that members of the Forum may have about them?

Have you read the Forum Rules, and do you understand that this is an environment set up for the purpose of Networking and sharing Knowledge -- not merely the statement of "judgments, proper to myself alone"? I have no way of knowing whether your sarcastically presented "credentials" are valid, but I do observe that so far your postings on this Forum seem to have more to do with Self-Importance than Objective Reality. At the very least one would have thought that so many years of study would have led to your becoming familiar with the basic concept of "External Consideration."

Somehow I don't think you're going to find what you're looking for here.

 

[domi]

Although I only spent about fifteen years in the Gurdjieff Work ('88-'03)... a paltry sum I admit... and at a junior level at that... only managing two summer intensive periods... and of course never meeting the man himself... I did bask in the presence of Mme. de Salzmann on one occasion and on several occasions that of Michel de Salzmann before I left to try working in life without the benefit of a group...

Some more name-dropping and a combination of boasting and humility in the same paragraph. Impressive.

My post was simply a statement of my understanding as it resulted from my trying to fathom the gist of Gurdjieff's teaching... and forming my own impartial judgment, proper to myself alone. Did I obtain the specific benefit for myself which he anticipated and for which he wished for me with all his being?

Despite all the fathoming and impartial judgement forming you claim to have been doing about Gurdjieff's teaching you seem have missed the perspicacity train.

Yes, I think I'm on the way... but with more than a long way to go. Am I going to try and convince the members who posted their reactions above? No... it is good that I carry on as before... if there are other members of this forum who viewed my initial post and it has left them in question... this is good also.

I think it's probably time for 'sigh' to stand up in front of the class and say: "Hi, I am sigh and I think I am a psychopath" because that's the veiled message I am reading in your postings. Or so I think anyway.

May I recommend Northern California for a fishing expedition? Or is that not the fish 'sigh' is interested in catching?

 

[anart]

I think it's probably time for 'sigh' to stand up in front of the class and say: "Hi, I am sigh and I think I am a psychopath" because that's the veiled message I am reading in your postings. Or so I think anyway.

Yep, I picked up on that as well - if we had a euro for every one of these who pop up on this forum, we'd be rich, I tells ya -- rich!! Or at least moderately comfortable? ;)

 

[go2]

My post was simply a statement of my understanding as it resulted from my trying to fathom the gist of Gurdjieff's teaching...

The [psychopath] is unfamiliar with the primary facts or data of what might be called personal values and is altogether incapable of understanding such matters. It is impossible for him to take even a slight interest in the tragedy or joy or the striving of humanity as presented in serious literature or art. He is also indifferent to all these matters in life itself. Beauty and ugliness, except in a very superficial sense, goodness, evil, love, horror, and humour have no actual meaning, no power to move him. He is, furthermore, lacking in the ability to see that others are moved. It is as though he were colour-blind, despite his sharp intelligence, to this aspect of human existence. It cannot be explained to him because there is nothing in his orbit of awareness that can bridge the gap with comparison. He can repeat the words and say glibly that he understands, and there is no way for him to realize that he does not understand. [Cleckley, H.M. (1941). The mask of sanity: An attempt to reinterpret the so-called psychopathic personality. St. Louis: The C. V. Mosby Company]

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

In other words, in a world of psychopaths, those who are not genetic psychopaths, are induced to behave like psychopaths simply to survive. When the rules are set up to make a society "adaptive" to psychopathy, it makes psychopaths of everyone.

Glib and superficial charm;
Grandiose sense of self-worth;
Need for stimulation;
Pathological lying;
Conning and manipulativeness;
Lack of remorse or guilt;
Shallow affect;
Callousness and lack of empathy;
Parasitic lifestyle;
Poor behavioral controls;
Promiscuous sexual behavior;
Early behavior problems;
Lack of realistic, long-term goals;
Impulsivity;
Irresponsibility;
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions;
Many short-term marital relationships;
Juvenile delinquency;
Revocation of conditional release;
Criminal versatility.

It is difficult for psychologically normal human beings to escape being labeled
psychopaths when living in a tyranny. I am uncomfortable with Hare's checklist.
I have a teenage daughter who rebelled when faced with the sterile Game Theory
of the American educational system. She would be labeled a psychopath by a school
official using Hare's checklist. Hare's checklist is based on conforming to the rules of
a moral and ethical society. We are far from that in the United States. I believe Hare's
checklist is invalid as a measure of psychopathy in a ponerized society.