The Golden Notebook
- Thread starter Telperion
- Start date
Telperion
Jedi
Yes, it is subjective and that's why I felt if people were really interested they could look it up on amazon.com or whatever. But to answer your question the book is often pigeonholed into the "feminist canon" category however it completely transcends that genre. If you want to experience a work of art that is honestly written with a depth of intellectual and emotional insight sorely missing from todays world, read this book. The book explores in depth the issues of gender, class, race, mental illness and suicide if you want to get into specifics.Craig said:
Ottershrew
Jedi Master
Doris Lessing is an exceptional writer, imo. Plus, she's just been awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, which must presumably count for something. The Swedish Academy described her as someone "who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny" - something which SOTT (imo) also tries to do.
Lessing herself preferred not to think of "The Golden Notebook" (published in 1962) as a "feminist" work; its significance, she wrote, lay in its theme of mental breakdowns as a means of healing and freeing one's self from illusions. This might make it illustrative of the thinking of the Polish psychologist Kazimierz Dąbrowski, who advanced the Theory of Positive Disintegration (TPD). This theoretical framework (quoting from Wikipedia now):
It's a great book - but there are problems in it, imo. First off: it's only after a nuclear war (and the destruction of billions) that the energy link is reestablished - the conceit being that, with fewer people around, it's now possible for the energy transmitted to be concentrated better in the survivors. No doubt the PTB today would love this idea - there's always agitation from this quarter to do away with the "useless eaters".
Secondly: there's a lot here that is reminiscent of "Beelzebub's Tales", and I guess (through her Sufi leanings) that Lessing got a good deal of inspiration for "Shikasta" from Gurdjieff. Of course, G. himself said that there wasn't really enough "energy" (or whatever) to go around, and seekers, for this reason, therefore had to pretty much keep what they'd got, or it wouldn't do anyone any good. (I think I read this in "In Search of the Miraculous" somewhere - but I don't know if I've quite understood what he was saying here.) For that matter, I don't think Lessing's quite understood what G. was saying either. If anything, she seems to have been more starry-eyed about Idries Shah - and I wonder if that's a good thing at all.
But anyway - Lessing's style of writing can seem a bit off-putting. I think what she's doing is trying to ground in some way her description of the mental turmoil her characters are going through, so that we ourselves can get a more realistic understanding of what we could become - given that we are, ourselves, crazy people driven crazy by the crazy world we live in. That makes her deadpan approach pretty satisfying, funny and warm, imo.
Just some thoughts - I don't really know what to make of her. At times she can seem arrogant, at others tender. At least it's not as though she's oblivious to the appalling state of affairs in the world today. As a novelist, I think she's got a bit of an edge to her, at any rate. As an esotericist with an understanding of what's really happening in the world, and what really allows for "waking up" and positive change in an individual - I can't tell whether she knows more than she's letting on.
But I did like "Shikasta" at any rate.
Lessing herself preferred not to think of "The Golden Notebook" (published in 1962) as a "feminist" work; its significance, she wrote, lay in its theme of mental breakdowns as a means of healing and freeing one's self from illusions. This might make it illustrative of the thinking of the Polish psychologist Kazimierz Dąbrowski, who advanced the Theory of Positive Disintegration (TPD). This theoretical framework (quoting from Wikipedia now):
For me, her science-fiction novel "Shikasta" was a real breakthrough! In its style, it's kind of boring and dry, and reads rather like a Civil Service document. But this seems to be intentional. It's essentially a report to the Civil Service on a planet orbiting the star Canopus concerning Earth, and what humans have become. Earth itself was colonised originally by the Canopeans in the distant past, and had been linked to Canopus by the transmission of some sort of life energy through megalithic structures. This link, however, was broken by the intervention of some sort of unspecified cosmic accident; from that point on, Earth was called "Shikasta" (from a Persian word meaning "broken"). The selfishness of humans then asserts itself, and we're led to the present where civilisation has become barbarous, abusive, and just plain murderous. Agents are sent to Earth through this long terrible period of isolation and gloom to try and help alleviate the situation somewhat.Positive Disintegration said:
It's a great book - but there are problems in it, imo. First off: it's only after a nuclear war (and the destruction of billions) that the energy link is reestablished - the conceit being that, with fewer people around, it's now possible for the energy transmitted to be concentrated better in the survivors. No doubt the PTB today would love this idea - there's always agitation from this quarter to do away with the "useless eaters".
Secondly: there's a lot here that is reminiscent of "Beelzebub's Tales", and I guess (through her Sufi leanings) that Lessing got a good deal of inspiration for "Shikasta" from Gurdjieff. Of course, G. himself said that there wasn't really enough "energy" (or whatever) to go around, and seekers, for this reason, therefore had to pretty much keep what they'd got, or it wouldn't do anyone any good. (I think I read this in "In Search of the Miraculous" somewhere - but I don't know if I've quite understood what he was saying here.) For that matter, I don't think Lessing's quite understood what G. was saying either. If anything, she seems to have been more starry-eyed about Idries Shah - and I wonder if that's a good thing at all.
But anyway - Lessing's style of writing can seem a bit off-putting. I think what she's doing is trying to ground in some way her description of the mental turmoil her characters are going through, so that we ourselves can get a more realistic understanding of what we could become - given that we are, ourselves, crazy people driven crazy by the crazy world we live in. That makes her deadpan approach pretty satisfying, funny and warm, imo.
Just some thoughts - I don't really know what to make of her. At times she can seem arrogant, at others tender. At least it's not as though she's oblivious to the appalling state of affairs in the world today. As a novelist, I think she's got a bit of an edge to her, at any rate. As an esotericist with an understanding of what's really happening in the world, and what really allows for "waking up" and positive change in an individual - I can't tell whether she knows more than she's letting on.
But I did like "Shikasta" at any rate.
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
Thanks, Ottershrew, that was really helpful and piqued my curiosity. See, Telperion, that's how it's done.
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
Hey, Telperion, I should explain my post. What I said was meant to be lighthearted. Sorry you were offended, truly.
I probably should have explained myself more. On the day when you posted your post about Doris Lessing I had a million things to do, but I was interested. So when Craig asked you to tell us what you found interesting about it, I was in agreement. I didn't have the time to go to Amazon.com and look it up. Now what I should have explained at the time was that Ottershew's post was way more complete than what Craig and I were asking. You see, lots of people come on this forum and post things like, "You should check out this link," post the link and not give a summary of WHY we should check it out. So it's common practice for someone to ask the person to give a little summary so we can decide if we want to investigate further. I should have explained that.
Anyway, I missed the "eat me" post, but since I read Craig's post about it this morning I have been laughing about it. It appeals to my juvenile sense of humor. I am not being sarcastic, I really mean that. The phrase "eat me" brings back some good memories of middle school, so how about we chalk this thing up to internet miscommunication (it's really hard to convey tones of voice, etc.)?
I probably should have explained myself more. On the day when you posted your post about Doris Lessing I had a million things to do, but I was interested. So when Craig asked you to tell us what you found interesting about it, I was in agreement. I didn't have the time to go to Amazon.com and look it up. Now what I should have explained at the time was that Ottershew's post was way more complete than what Craig and I were asking. You see, lots of people come on this forum and post things like, "You should check out this link," post the link and not give a summary of WHY we should check it out. So it's common practice for someone to ask the person to give a little summary so we can decide if we want to investigate further. I should have explained that.
Anyway, I missed the "eat me" post, but since I read Craig's post about it this morning I have been laughing about it. It appeals to my juvenile sense of humor. I am not being sarcastic, I really mean that. The phrase "eat me" brings back some good memories of middle school, so how about we chalk this thing up to internet miscommunication (it's really hard to convey tones of voice, etc.)?
Telperion
Jedi
Yes, I'm glad to hear this, I really meant my comment to be much more lighthearted than it has been made out to be...and you're right I sort of misunderstood your response. At first I wasn't sure what all the fuss was about lol, I've been on forums with language that would make Tony Soprano blush. But thanks for your understanding, these things happen and I'm getting the feel of the tone of this forum the hard way I suppose lol.DonaldJHunt said:
And by the way I enjoy your economic commentary very much!
Ottershrew said:
I'm half way through reading 'Shikasta' and I find it very interesting. It touches on so many subjects that is discussed around here. One of the most interesting elements in the book is Lessing's description of the 'Shammat' "race" and how they steal the 'We-energy" (i.e. STO-energy?) by religious gatherings and rituals. Sounds kind of familiar... :)
Makes me wonder what soruces inspired her writing, other than the Sufi teachings and maybe Gurdijeff. Great book!
brainwave
Jedi Master
Ottershrew,
I think you gave a really good synopsis of Shikasta- the first book in the Canopus in Argos series. There is a section of Shikasta where she describes the various types of terrorists . It shows how pathologicals corrupt and how normal individual become corrupted through use of the idealistic STO sounding ideals and slogans. It really describes ponerology quite well. There's a STS program for every type it seems and that is described more fully in other volumes of the series.
Not all the books in the series are as good as Shakista, tough the third volume and the last-The Sirian experiments and Sentimental agents respectively- are also interesting. The Sirian experiments delves into some of the same
things that occurred in Shikasta but from the point of view of an agent of the fascist but deteriorating civilization that originally shared the responsibility for Earth. Written from the point of view of the Sirian agent, herself exiled. Through her interactions with canopean agents was beginning to see and she suffered for it.
This volume also gives some back story of the war between Sirius and Canopus which Sirius lost. Surprisingly to the sirians, they were treated well and allowed to share in the development of Rohanda which became shikasta. Interestingly, Sirius had been given the south of the planet while Canopus had the north. What Sirius did there, under the influence of a third most STS civilization called Puttiora/shammat leads to all that occurs in Shikasta.
Earth/shikasta isn't the only planet that Sirius has its hands on either. They transport different groups around their various colonies, perform genetic and social experiments and then watch how things develop over eons. All to save their own stagnating civilization that had become technologically advanced to the point of near immortality, but spiritually undeveloped. Sirians were, according to the Canopean agent lacking an understanding of things exist according to the necessity even if they too were influenced by it.
Sentimental Agents is funny yet tragic. It really ridiculed political rhetoric and shows how comical but dangerous (from a programming standpoint) it can be. Supposedly it was her critique of the communism and the how the speeches of charismatic leaders affected nations, but it is equally applicable to our current NLP gods in the US and their followers.
Basically I really do like Lessings writing and have the golden notebook that I just haven't had time to read.
I like Doris Lessing's short stories as well. Very interesting characters as they go about life and the impact their choices have on not only them but the people around them.
I think you gave a really good synopsis of Shikasta- the first book in the Canopus in Argos series. There is a section of Shikasta where she describes the various types of terrorists . It shows how pathologicals corrupt and how normal individual become corrupted through use of the idealistic STO sounding ideals and slogans. It really describes ponerology quite well. There's a STS program for every type it seems and that is described more fully in other volumes of the series.
Not all the books in the series are as good as Shakista, tough the third volume and the last-The Sirian experiments and Sentimental agents respectively- are also interesting. The Sirian experiments delves into some of the same
things that occurred in Shikasta but from the point of view of an agent of the fascist but deteriorating civilization that originally shared the responsibility for Earth. Written from the point of view of the Sirian agent, herself exiled. Through her interactions with canopean agents was beginning to see and she suffered for it.
This volume also gives some back story of the war between Sirius and Canopus which Sirius lost. Surprisingly to the sirians, they were treated well and allowed to share in the development of Rohanda which became shikasta. Interestingly, Sirius had been given the south of the planet while Canopus had the north. What Sirius did there, under the influence of a third most STS civilization called Puttiora/shammat leads to all that occurs in Shikasta.
Earth/shikasta isn't the only planet that Sirius has its hands on either. They transport different groups around their various colonies, perform genetic and social experiments and then watch how things develop over eons. All to save their own stagnating civilization that had become technologically advanced to the point of near immortality, but spiritually undeveloped. Sirians were, according to the Canopean agent lacking an understanding of things exist according to the necessity even if they too were influenced by it.
Sentimental Agents is funny yet tragic. It really ridiculed political rhetoric and shows how comical but dangerous (from a programming standpoint) it can be. Supposedly it was her critique of the communism and the how the speeches of charismatic leaders affected nations, but it is equally applicable to our current NLP gods in the US and their followers.
Basically I really do like Lessings writing and have the golden notebook that I just haven't had time to read.
I like Doris Lessing's short stories as well. Very interesting characters as they go about life and the impact their choices have on not only them but the people around them.
Ottershrew
Jedi Master
Thanks for that, Brainwave.
Another great short story writer is Ursula Le Guin - who I think you mentioned you enjoyed in a previous post.
One of her collections of stories, "Orsinian Tales", isn't science fiction at all - instead it presents detailed vignettes of individuals, couples or families in a fictional middle European country over the course of the 20th century.
Lovely writing - reminiscent of Sebastian Haffner's "Defying Hitler". Tender, and really satisfying, imo.
brainwave said:
Another great short story writer is Ursula Le Guin - who I think you mentioned you enjoyed in a previous post.
One of her collections of stories, "Orsinian Tales", isn't science fiction at all - instead it presents detailed vignettes of individuals, couples or families in a fictional middle European country over the course of the 20th century.
Lovely writing - reminiscent of Sebastian Haffner's "Defying Hitler". Tender, and really satisfying, imo.
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