The Meaning of Modern Holidays

[Hildegarda]

However I also feel that there are enough mysteries on this planet to engage a child with and to spark their imagination without telling them that Santa Clause and the Easter bunny are real and then leaving presents or chocolate eggs from Wal-Mart out for them to find.

Why not spark their imagination with pictures and information of crop circles, the great pyramid, Easter Island, the ancient tales of giants and little folk etc. etc.

I think we have a full plate as far as mysteries go in this human experience without having to deliberately lie to our children for the sake of developing their imagination.

well, I think what they are talking about is not exactly LYING. Rather allowing the child to pick on and absorb family traditions and certain cultural context, and not interfere too much with a magical thinking that is natural at that age.

if crop circles, the great pyramid (which one, BTW, and why is it important?), Easter Island etc, are part of your family traditions and cultural context, then it should work out well. But, it's still not the TRUTH, and relying on these things IMO is not equivalent to "teaching the Truth", as per what gwb195 says. I just don't think we should be presuming to be doing that.

 

[gwb1995]

were programed with as [a child]" Your children are separate human beings, not an extension of you. As such, they need to be allowed to experience and learn their own lessons. I think you should follow your own advice here: deal with yourself first before attempting to change those around you, especially your children.

Bobo08,

Let me first say that I have already raised my child during a timeframe in this life, when I had no concept of what really happens on this BBM. She know has all the narcissistic programs her mother and I passed on to her. With that said, would I raise her differently now, with what I have learned in these past several years? Of course I would. The knowledge I am gaining from this site and from the reading material suggested here has been a life changing event for me.

Since we are all STS 3D beings on this planet, we are all subject to narcissistic traits. Would you not agree? I also acknowledge that I, like the rest of us, don't know the truth of anything for sure. Yes, I have some very solid thoughts about what is really the truth now. Still nothing is 100% in my mind. With that in mind, why would I not pass on this information to my child during her early years? Why would I want to knowingly lie to my child under any circumstance? If one raises a child in the environment of truth and objectivity, then the child can make their own decisions. Is it not wrong to violate ones free will? Are you saying that a child has no free will? These are questions that come to mind when I read your reply.

You stated that children need to learn and experience for themselves, on their own. I agree with you on this. How does lying to a child figure in to what you are saying? My point in this thread has, and still is that with what I have learned here, I don't understand why anyone would continue fostering lies to there children. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Myth of Myself]

well, I think what they are talking about is not exactly LYING. Rather allowing the child to pick on and absorb family traditions and certain cultural context, and not interfere too much with a magical thinking that is natural at that age.

if crop circles, the great pyramid (which one, BTW, and why is it important?), Easter Island etc, are part of your family traditions and cultural context, then it should work out well. But, it's still not the TRUTH, and relying on these things IMO is not equivalent to "teaching the Truth", as per what gwb195 says. I just don't think we should be presuming to be doing that.

Yes I agree that one has to step back and allow for children to have free reign over their "magical thinking" where ever it may take them.

The tone and message I got from the passage you quoted from "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" by Betty Smith implied that making your child believe in Santa Clause is important for them to develop their imagination.

The topics I used like the great pyramid (and it really isn't important which one), were just examples to illustrate different mysteries that could be used to spark a child's imagination without resorting to tricking them into believing that a giant bunny is going to bring them chocolate eggs and then leaving eggs that were purchased to give physical evidence that what the child was told is true.

And I do feel that presenting a child with the unknown or the mysteries of this world IS telling the "truth" and at the same time fires up their imagination.

Where is the lie in saying, "We don't know for certain why these things happen, but they do. Isn't that cool?".

If a child decides on their own accord to have an "imaginary" friend, I feel that is much different than a child's parents telling them that there is a man watching them all the time named Santa Cause and he is deciding if they deserve presents or not based on their behavior.

I cannot see this as anything but a lie. Maybe some would argue it is a "white" lie, but it is a lie nonetheless.
Telling a child this is in no way different to me than fundamental Christians telling other adults that God is watching them and if they aren't good and do what he wants them to, they will go to hell.

Maybe we all think that it isn't a big deal to pass these fibs along because we were all lied to when we were kids about these cultural myths and have a lingering nosalgia when looking back on them from adulthood. Possibly making it easier for us to indoctirnate our kids into the same myths.

Who knows what effect these myths had on us......

In the end I understand that it is up to us individually to choose what we want to tell our children and how we raise them, but I do learn a lot from discussions like this and appreciate everyones perspective.

Thanks :D

 

[Hildegarda]

The tone and message I got from the passage you quoted from "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" by Betty Smith implied that making your child believe in Santa Clause is important for them to develop their imagination.[..]
Maybe we all think that it isn't a big deal to pass these fibs along because we were all lied to when we were kids about these cultural myths and have a lingering nosalgia when looking back on them from adulthood. [..]
In the end I understand that it is up to us individually to choose what we want to tell our children and how we raise them, but I do learn a lot from discussions like this and appreciate everyones perspective.

I too am learning so much from everyone's prospective. I have also been trying to think back and remember myself as a kid. There were, IMO, two main parts of the holiday experience. One is a family and community routine, and I think there the minutest experiences, like, the kinds of cookies your Mom bakes for Christmas Eve, take on a cherished meaning. Because they follow a certain sequence, they repeat again and again, they are so stimulating on a sensory level (all the brightness, colors, lights, special occasion clothes, smell of oranges and pine needles), and on the emotional level, they foster the feeling of being together and interconnected. I know I have been sort of thick and oblivious as a kid, but that's really all that mattered for a long time.

The other is the whole myth behind it, and that's where the context is important. The passage I quoted is about a family of immigrants who are leading a very hard life in a new country, and this is why I think for them the stories of fairies and Santa Claus is not just about developing imagination. It's about building resilience and staying connected to their roots, to the "old country", to what defines their family, language and where they came from -- and having a sort of spiritual "bird's eye" prospective about it. Whether it all is relevant for our kids, I do not know. Most likely, it isn't and they need a different "bird's eye" prospective. But, may be it still can use some of the old motives, because they are very robust when their original meaning is purified.

I feel sheepish to admit it but I only figured out that Santa didn't exist when I was 9 y.o. or so, and it was like, "oh, how nice of our parents to do these nice things for us". And after that, my sister and I started putting present for them under the tree, too -- "from Santa Claus". BUT: we only had one Santa Claus, who brought us may be one book or one small toy at a time, and that was it. Here, between a much more generous Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and what not, it's clearly an overkill, and a reaction to all those elaborate ruses crumbling may be different. But then again, it's going back to the commercialization of holidays which is a separate issue.

Well, the holiday season has just started, so I'll have time to mull over it some more ;)

 

[Myth of Myself]

Last night some friends and I were discussing the quirks of growing up in our culture and the topic of holidays came up and we talked about this thread.

At one point we came up with an interesting thought.

Many children are told that Santa Clause is real by adults, but at the same time those same adults will take their children to a therapist when they feel that it's time for them to "let go" of their own imaginary friends. Weird huh?

We laughed at the irony of this and I just wanted to share this observation in this thread.

 

[PepperFritz]

Well, here are my thoughts and experiences on this subject, for what they are worth:

For many years I absolutely HATED the Christmas thing, coming from a highly chaotic, dysfunctional home where where the "holidays" were nothing like those portrayed in books and the media. When I was young I used to say that it was a good Christmas if the men in my family managed not to have a fist-fight. Left my family at 16 and from that point forward resolutely REFUSED to "do Christmas"; even going to friend's families' houses to share their holidays just made me feel depressed and out of place. If I was dating someone, I lied and told him I was spending Christmas Day with my family, when in fact I really curled up alone with a good book, happy as a bug in a rug. During my two marriages, I did the Christmas thing with HIS family, because it was important to him; put forth a really good effort but really just felt stressed-out by it all. Post marriage, spent some enjoyable "orphan Christmas dinners" with gay friends, but mostly went back to ignoring it.

For the past three years I have shared a house and home with my cousin Leslie and our many animals. She felt much the same as me about the Christmas thing, and as a nurse was always working during the holidays anyway. Last Christmas she said, "You know, I wouldn't mind having a Christmas Tree next year and maybe some friends over for a Christmas dinner, what do you think?" "Hurrummph", I replied. (Translation: "Bah Humbug".). "Whatever you like, I don't care". She didn't mention it again, and I thought no more about it

This year she mentioned this idea again, only this time in October, and a little more forcefully. Fortunately, I had somewhat matured and developed in the Work in the meantime, and was able to respond with less self-absorption and more external consideration. I asked her to talk about what she liked about Christmas in the past; she spoke happily of decorations and good food, and I saw her eyes sparkle and dance. I realized that it would make her happy to have a "traditional Christmas" this year, and since then I have been setting about making that happen for her.

In doing so, I realized that I'd pretty well lost all my "bad" feelings about Christmas (a result of having "let go" of a lot of family stuff), and just felt kinda "neutral" about it. Feel no need to do all the Christmas stuff just because people and society tell you to, but also feel no compulsion to NOT do it.

We've had a couple of good snowfalls here already, and I've spend the last few days trudging in the woods with the dogs collecting evergreen boughs, dogwood twigs, pine cones, berries, etc. to make decorations with. I can't wait for Leslie to come home to see the cute little Christmas tree that I brought home for our living room. The creative aspect of it has given me a lot of pleasure, and it makes me happy to make Leslie happy.

Never thought I'd ever say it, but I'm actually really looking forward to holidays this year...... :D

 

[fabric]

When I was young we would celebrate in the ordinary ways, with decorations and presents from santa and the small family dinners. We didn't have a large family so it usually would be just the immediate family (Mom, Dad, Sis and I). From what I remember it was usually pleasant and I looked forward to christmas, especially the presents ;), as most children would. However, it never really felt like a tradition for us. It was mostly going through the motions - and saying our thanks to one another and just spending a day together. I too, like raven said, thought that there was no way santa could do what he did (fly around the world in one night etc.) and still make it back in time for breakfast, so when I learned that he wasn't 'real', it just kinda confirmed my suspicions - albeit, I was disappointed: I mean, how cool would that be if it were true??

As the years went by, I started noticing how commercialized everything was becoming / is. Being that we never had any real 'tradition' associated with the holidays and getting older, I started to somewhat dislike the whole thing. Why couldn't we make the effort to give and spend time every day?? Why do we need this "day" to tell us to be more kind to each other?? Of course, this was way back before I had any concept of psychopaths or politics. With our family we are usually pretty understanding and let each other be and grow, so I'm glad for that. So despite all the commercialization, we still enjoy our time together.

So did believing in Santa do anything to damage or help me? I don't really know. I don't think so. It wasn't like everything was "Santa" this and "Santa that". But at least I was given the choice to believe or not believe in it and then figure out the truth on my own. The discovery, even if disappointing, was the best part :P

 

[Bobo08]

Hi gwb1995,

Since we are all STS 3D beings on this planet, we are all subject to narcissistic traits. Would you not agree?

Yes, I agree.

[quote author=gwb]
I also acknowledge that I, like the rest of us, don't know the truth of anything for sure. Yes, I have some very solid thoughts about what is really the truth now. Still nothing is 100% in my mind. With that in mind, why would I not pass on this information to my child during her early years?
[/quote]

It is the absolution in your posts that I am concerned with. If you acknowledge that you don't know the truth of anything for sure, why would you use absolute words like "under any circumstance", "from birth", etc.? What if what you are proposing is in fact harmful to your children? (I know your children are past that age now, but just use your imagination a bit).

[quote author=gwb]
Why would I want to knowingly lie to my child under any circumstance?
[/quote]

As Hildegarda mentioned and I agree with her, I don't consider telling fairy tales to be lying. I think fairy tales are very important to a child's development. And there are different ways to tell a fairy tale. One can de-emphasize the morality aspect and emphasize the imaginative aspect, for example.

[quote author=gwb]
If one raises a child in the environment of truth and objectivity, then the child can make their own decisions. Is it not wrong to violate ones free will? Are you saying that a child has no free will? These are questions that come to mind when I read your reply.
[/quote]

Well, I don't think the environment described with those absolute-sounding words in your posts is very conducive to free will, to put it mildly.

[quote author=gwb]
You stated that children need to learn and experience for themselves, on their own. I agree with you on this. How does lying to a child figure in to what you are saying? My point in this thread has, and still is that with what I have learned here, I don't understand why anyone would continue fostering lies to there children. It makes no sense to me.
[/quote]

See my point on fairy tales above.

I think the issue here is your identification with what you have learned so far from this forum. You think you've found THE truth and everyone around MUST follow it. It is quite understandable and I have also gone through it. But you should recognize it for what it is: narcissism and black and white thinking.

 

[PepperFritz]

[quote author=gwb]If one raises a child in the environment of truth and objectivity, then the child can make their own decisions.[/quote]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the issues that Bobo09 raises. Your dogmatic tone and frequent use of the word "truth" is very jarring. When I was in my 20s and 30s, there were a great number of things that I considered "truths". Now that I'm in my 50s, I'm appalled at many of the beliefs of my younger self. To quote Socrates, now "All I know is that I know nothing".

I think one of the best things one can teach a child is humility and to hold one's beliefs "lightly", with the knowledge that they could change at any moment with the introduction of new data. At best, everything is a "working hypothesis". It's LEARNING that should be emphasized, not absolute truths and "answers".

At this point in my life, if a child of mine were to ask "Mommy, does Santa Claus exist?", my response would be "I'm not sure. Do you think he does? Let's find out together...." What a great opportunity to introduce your child to the myths and folklore of different cultures -- and let them make up their own minds about things, IN THEIR OWN TIME.

 

[vinny]

I agree with PepperFritz. This has come up in a slightly different context, for me, eg: "what happens when we die?" - such searching questions from a young child!

An approach I have found useful, when dealing with such things is to exercise a little humility, and be comfortable with admitting that you don't necessarily have all the answers, but that it is fun to find out and explore the possibilities. I don't agree with lying to my child, but it is perfectly ok to tell fun stories, acknowledging that they are just stories, that may contain hidden treasures.

Life is supposed to be fun and full of exciting exploration of unknown wonders, for a small child.

 

[gwb1995]

I acknowledge that I do use the work 'truth' quite a bit. I struggle with the word daily. My current definition of truth: it is the truth as I understand it right now. It is a fluid state that I must be willing to change. Most of this life, I questioned all the truth's I had been taught, never quite able to feel comfortable with what I was hearing. Now that I have been able to make some sense out what is really happening in this world, I struggle with how to express myself with this new knowledge. At first I made the mistake of trying to share it with everyone around me. I soon learned that one must learn who to discuss this with and when. I then learned about strategic enclosure, and how to protect myself.

Now I see myself trying to make a point and get my thoughts across in a clear and concise manner. Yet I am so intent on being heard, that I am ceasing to communicate, and actually demanding to be right. Wow, I am shocked at what I have been doing here. This has to tie in to my issues with low self esteem. This was something I discovered a few years back, and came from my childhood days. I spent most of this life compensating for this in a lot of ways. One of which was to seek attention to myself, to try to gain praise from any source I could find. My life reflects this pattern, and it has come up again.

The narcissistic traits and the black and white thinking are things that I have been aware of, just apparently not controlling them very well at this time. I have been trying to be more open and look at things from all possible sides before starting to form any opinions or solid thoughts. I can see that I still have much work to do on this. Thanks for pointing it out.

I am finding that this format is a good one exposing such problems. Since anyone can feel relatively safe sitting at a key board, it is easy for one's true I's to come out. I am now seeing many of mine from this thread alone. Lots of lessons presented for me learn from here. Thank you bobo08 and Pepperfritz for pointing them out to me. This is something that I can use to keep working on myself, and keep trying to move forward. I think I am only beginning to see why it's called the work.

gwb

 

[Gimpy]

I was curious as to how you folks view holidays. I was having a discussion tonight with my wife (who is 5 months pregnant) about the meaning of holidays and how the majority of them deal with celebrating aspects that neither of us relate too.

For instance, celebrating Easter by telling children that there is a giant bunny that lays chocolate eggs is rather odd to our current perspective. That's not to say we aren't imaginative people, it's just that we don;t feel comfortable peddling bullshit to our child to be.

We also discussed Christmas, and it seems it was just as odd. The idea of lying to children and telling them that there is a man with a long white beard who is watching them at all times and making a list of the naughty boys and girls so he can determine which ones are worthy of presents.

We were tinkering with the notion that popular holidays are void of any real meaning. The ancient meanings have been lost to our modern way of expressing ourselves, "buying stuff". These holidays have been inherited much like all the other ills of our modern society. What is the meaning of a celebration wherein one has to purchase items to even participate? It seems to me to be a clever means of perpetuating consumerism and nothing more.

Why not have a Christmas celebration where you stay in your pajamas for three days while the sun is at it's stationary point in the sky, eat the candy you all made together and the harvest of the previous autumn while reading your favorite stories to each other. We were thinking of making this our new celebration of Christmas. And in many ways it would mean so much more than what it has become in our odd transitory society.

I am interested in your opinion on this matter.......

Are you sure you want to know? ;) ;)

For instance: Thanksgiving in our house is a combo of Halloween and Day of the Dead...we visit relatives and give thanks to the living and remember those who've gone on ahead of us. Its part tongue in cheek with the Day of the Dead decorations, but it can also be profound. We're thankful for a lot, and it has nothing to do with the story as its told and celebrated. (When I saw how it was celebrated on Northern Exposure I wanted to add in the tomato throwing, but I was out voted) I'm the only person in my extended family that does this, but its still fun for all.

Christmas is the spirit of sharing what you have with anyone who may not have anything. I was taught that Santa Claus is a Spirit, and because he doesn't have a body, people will be his hands in the world, leaving gifts and sharing what they have. When I was small and happened to stumble into the living room on Christmas eve by mistake, and saw all the presents pre wrapping....it wasn't a big deal, because in my five year old mind, they were simply being Santa's helpers. That kind of tradition is elastic and living, even forgiving when times are hard and sharing small comforts mean more.

It sounds corny, but that's how I still see it. Some holidays are different, like Easter. Hubby calls that "Roll the Rock Day". Marking the turning of the season is enough for those.

I'd encourage you to look up different celebrations of the seasons, or see what your extended family likes to do. One of the traditions we had growing up was leaving our shoes under the tree instead of stockings. I found out in college that it is a Swedish tradition, but when I asked my mother about it, she said "Oh, your dad glued all your stockings up with carmel corn one year so we decided to use your shoes, and it worked so well, we decided to keep doing it."


Gimpy