"The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

[bedower]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

[quote author=Ringo (Andy) 27 July 07] You can get 'The Sociopath next door' in audio format. Great if your currently backed up with books or short on time, you can listen to it while driving or exercising etc.

http://www.audible.com/adbl/entry/offers/productPromo2.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&productID=BK_TANT_000120
[/quote]

'The Sociopath Next Door' was still on the audible.uk site the evening before I went to pick up my internet card a couple of weeks ago. When I got back home, the phone lines were down and stayed down for two days - ergo, no Internet. When I was finally able to get back on-line, audible had changed its site and taken 'Sociopath' off its list (along with a couple of other books I had my eye on, but never mind those!). What are the odds on that happening? The gremlins were surely wide-awake and busy during that small time-window!

'Sociopath is still on the audible.us site, but UK members cannot order from the US site as long as they are registered with the UK site because the EU insists on its pound of flesh (which they call 'tax') from all books purchased in the UK. The only way to get round this is to cancel membership on the UK site and re-register on the US site. BUT the problem with that for me is that the US site doesn't have some of the books I would like which are on the UK site.

Ho hum!

 

[RedFox]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

[quote author=Ringo (Andy) 27 July 07] You can get 'The Sociopath next door' in audio format. Great if your currently backed up with books or short on time, you can listen to it while driving or exercising etc.

http://www.audible.com/adbl/entry/offers/productPromo2.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&productID=BK_TANT_000120

'The Sociopath Next Door' was still on the audible.uk site the evening before I went to pick up my internet card a couple of weeks ago. When I got back home, the phone lines were down and stayed down for two days - ergo, no Internet. When I was finally able to get back on-line, audible had changed its site and taken 'Sociopath' off its list (along with a couple of other books I had my eye on, but never mind those!). What are the odds on that happening? The gremlins were surely wide-awake and busy during that small time-window!

'Sociopath is still on the audible.us site, but UK members cannot order from the US site as long as they are registered with the UK site because the EU insists on its pound of flesh (which they call 'tax') from all books purchased in the UK. The only way to get round this is to cancel membership on the UK site and re-register on the US site. BUT the problem with that for me is that the US site doesn't have some of the books I would like which are on the UK site.

Ho hum!
[/quote]

_http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sociopath-Next-Door-Ruthless-Versus/dp/1400101565 CD
_http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sociopath-Next-Door-Ruthless-Versus/dp/1400151562 MP3 CD?
:D

 

[bedower]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Hi Redfox,

Thanks for those two links. Unfortunately, they only have the books not an MP3 download, and it's the postal delivery at this end which could be a problem.

Thinking it over though, I've decided it isn't such a bad thing after all, because I find it easier to absorb and retain information via the written word. So although it wouldn't be hard to listen to as an audio book, the subject is quite complex and referrals to previous pages might be necessary. And it's easier to riffle through pages than it would be to find the relevant place on an audio download, osit. I'll order it through the same local bookshop that already has the Big Four on order for me.

So that's all sorted. :D

 

[Oxajil]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

I never really understood why I was REALLY bad with remembering which movies I've seen and what they were about.

After reading this, it kind of became clear...:

Consider a perfectly ordinary person as he walks into a perfectly ordinary movie theater to see a popular movie. He is awake, alert and oriented to his surroundings. He is aware that his wife is with him and that, as they sit down in their aisle seats, she is to his right. He is aware that he has a box of popcorn on his lap. He knows that the movie he has come to see is entitled The Fugitive, and that its star is Harrison Ford, an actor. As he waits for the movie to begin, perhaps he worries about a problem he is having at work.

Then the lights in the theater are lowered, and the movie starts.

And within twenty-five minutes, he has utterly lost his grasp on reality. Not only is he no longer worried about work, he no longer realizes he has a job. If one could read his thoughts, one would discover that he no longer believes he is sitting in a theater, though, in reality, he is. He cannot smell his popcorn; some of it tumbles out of the box he now holds slightly askew, because he has forgotten about his own hands. His wife has vanished, though any observer would see that she is still seated four inches to his right.

And without moving from his seat, he is running, running , running - not with Harrison Ford, the actor - but with the beleaguered fugitive in the movie, with, in other words, a person who does not exist at all, in this moviegoer's real wold or anyone else's.
His heart races as he dodges a runaway train that does not exist, either.

This perfectly ordinary man is dissociated from reality. Effectively, he is in a trance. We might label his perceptions as psychotic, except for the fact that when the movie is over, he will return to his usual mental status almost instantly.

[...]

All that really happened is that, for a little while, he took the part of himself that worries about work problems and other ''real'' things, and seperated it from the imaginative part of himself, so that imaginative part could have domincance. He dissociated one part of his consciousness from another part.

It's so fun that these books give (highly) possible answers to questions one might have in one's life. I really love that.
Just thought I'd share.

 

[Buddy]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

It's so fun that these books give (highly) possible answers to questions one might have in one's life. I really love that.
Just thought I'd share.

Hi Oxajil. Thanks for sharing that. I've studied that book also and I had been recently thinking about something that was written by Stargazer sometime back:

Stout also places a very healthy emphasis on personal responsibility being the deciding factor in recovery from the various DID states. She points out that people who value safety and self-protection above all other concerns have a higher probability of treatment failure, and that a conscientious and competent therapist will always seek to nurture that part of a person's essential self rather than enabling them to perpetuate a "victim mentality".

This makes a lot of sense and helped me to understand a lot about how the fear of the loss of personal safety and protection can allow us to become a puppet of narcissistic parents, schoolyard bullies, the pathocracy or any other characterpath or psychopath.

Of course, a good understanding of Stout's work also eventually leads to the question "how exactly did we come to allow 'government' to become involved in every aspect of our societies, encouraging us to disconnect from our own responsibilities?" ...but that's another subject entirely... :)

All that really happened is that, for a little while, he took the part of himself that worries about work problems and other ''real'' things, and seperated it from the imaginative part of himself, so that imaginative part could have domincance. He dissociated one part of his consciousness from another part.

That reminds me of how when I first came to this Work I thought I understood the concept of disassociation when I only had a vague clue, but it's helped me see the relationship between self-remembering and re-associating with all those various parts of myself. Still a work in progress, though.


BTW, I noticed your post is under bedower's last post. Do we still not know what happened to bedower?

 

[Laura]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

I haven't received any word from Bedower. I notice that the individual last posted in July but was last on the forum (signed in) in August. It is a bit unusual... Let's hope nothing bad has happened; but no point in getting worked up in advance. For all we know, s/he decided that the forum just wasn't a good fit and went elsewhere.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Stout also places a very healthy emphasis on personal responsibility being the deciding factor in recovery from the various DID states. She points out that people who value safety and self-protection above all other concerns have a higher probability of treatment failure, and that a conscientious and competent therapist will always seek to nurture that part of a person's essential self rather than enabling them to perpetuate a "victim mentality".

This makes a lot of sense and helped me to understand a lot about how the fear of the loss of personal safety and protection can allow us to become a puppet of narcissistic parents, schoolyard bullies, the pathocracy or any other characterpath or psychopath.

Of course, a good understanding of Stout's work also eventually leads to the question "how exactly did we come to allow 'government' to become involved in every aspect of our societies, encouraging us to disconnect from our own responsibilities?" ...but that's another subject entirely... :)

Yes indeed. Thanks for posting that, there is also this:

The more we can anticipate what is likely to happen next, the more we feel that we can protect ourselves, the more we know ourselves in general, the more inoculated we are against being traumatized by the frightening or the painful.

Perhaps a lack of knowledge made us allow the government to become involved, maybe they just claimed so much that they knew what to do and claimed that they are ''smart'' enough to make the decisions for us. We probably thought that we know ourselves, when we don't and that we are not able to protect ourselves, I'm not sure how and when this started...

Maybe someone who was sick in his head was making the other people ill or something, made them weak, except for a few children or others so that things won't seem suspicious and then rises up and says that he will take care of it all and that he will protect them and heal them. And maybe with time (and after some periods of same), people started to ask him if he wants to be a leader, because every time people got sick, he was the one who stood out from the rest, the one who had the talk to make the whole group feel good and the one who cured them all. Maybe in time they forgot that they could heal themselves and so they kind of ''allowed'' the guy on top to take care of them.

Not knowing ourselves in every sense of the word and not knowing we can take care of ourselves, not expecting the unexpected and seeing things as they are etc. does not only make us blind, but also very vulnerable to events that will be traumatizing. And (more) trauma's weakens us even more. I think.

How traumatized will those people be when they survive the comet impact (which comes unexpected)? And how will it effect them or the new society the survivors might want to build?

That reminds me of how when I first came to this Work I thought I understood the concept of disassociation when I only had a vague clue, but it's helped me see the relationship between self-remembering and re-associating with all those various parts of myself. Still a work in progress, though.

Same here. I'm kind of thinking about times I could have been dissociating and why I would do so. Interesting work in progress nonetheless!

BTW, I noticed your post is under bedower's last post. Do we still not know what happened to bedower?

I haven't received any word from Bedower. I notice that the individual last posted in July but was last on the forum (signed in) in August. It is a bit unusual... Let's hope nothing bad has happened; but no point in getting worked up in advance. For all we know, s/he decided that the forum just wasn't a good fit and went elsewhere.

Hm I'm not sure, I remember Gawan telling that Bedower commented on this article on SOTT.net:
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/193024-Germany-Has-Become-a-Warring-Party-under-US-Command-
@ 11 september 09

And I think I've seen her commenting to some other articles as well recently. So I'm guessing she is still visiting Sott.net, but not the forum anymore. :(

 

[Green_Manalishi]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Hi. I was just reading this book (half way), and was wondering if anyone can point me to some other books about Dissociative Disorders. This book reinforces, at least for me (like Laura said: "I also wouldn't hesitate to point out the similarities between this information and the work of Gurdjieff!"), the idea that spiritual development/ascension, can be in part explained and aided by some ideas from the clinical psychology world.
My intent with diving deeper in this Dissociative Disorders is the aspect of secondary trauma Stout speaks in the book, the traumas that are less severe. For me it seems that discovering this "less severe traumas" could perhaps help in the detoxification of our psyche/soul, ourselves in general (detoxification and soul are two words Stout uses in some extent in the book).

 

[mada85]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

This makes a lot of sense and helped me to understand a lot about how the fear of the loss of personal safety and protection can allow us to become a puppet of narcissistic parents, schoolyard bullies, the pathocracy or any other characterpath or psychopath.

And this works to the benefit of the pathological because it can be really painful to see how we have allowed ourselves to have the wool pulled over our eyes, how we have been manipulated by these types, and just to allow ourselves to realise that we are not who we thought we were.

It can be very difficult indeed to overcome fear, and the pathologicals are expert at ‘divide and conquer’ and manufacturing fear. Without free discussion with a network, one can feel isolated and alone, making the task that much more difficult.

I know why you did it.
I know you were afraid.
Who wouldn’t be?
War, terror, disease.
There were a myriad of problems that conspired to rob you of your common sense.
Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to . . . [insert name of politician du jour]

That reminds me of how when I first came to this Work I thought I understood the concept of disassociation when I only had a vague clue, but it's helped me see the relationship between self-remembering and re-associating with all those various parts of myself. Still a work in progress, though.

Same here. I'm kind of thinking about times I could have been dissociating and why I would do so. Interesting work in progress nonetheless!

Thinking about triggers for dissociation can help us to recognise the state in the present. In my case it has led me to think about my childhood, and to be more aware of how my un-remembered dissociative childhood programs trigger dissociated reactions in the present. And these childhood dissociative states, when brought into light as much as possible, seem to be always accompanied by a release of emotional pain, usually tears.

Sometimes it’s not possible to remember oneself, other times all we can do is just hang on to a little tiny piece of awareness, but at least then we can know we have dissociated. It’s a beginning, at least!

 

[Buddy]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Hi. I was just reading this book (half way), and was wondering if anyone can point me to some other books about Dissociative Disorders. This book reinforces, at least for me (like Laura said: "I also wouldn't hesitate to point out the similarities between this information and the work of Gurdjieff!"), the idea that spiritual development/ascension, can be in part explained and aided by some ideas from the clinical psychology world.

Hi Green_Manalishi. At the moment, I don't have a recommendation for other books about Dissociative Disorders. Have you read the recommended books on narcissism in the Big 5? If not, then I would suggest that as well, since the various case descriptions contain instances of various degrees of psychological trauma for the victims.

Plus it all connects together as forms of disassociation, and increases understanding of the subject exponentially, I think. :)

 

[Green_Manalishi]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Thanks Buddy i'll see if i can get my hands is the other two books of Martha Stout.

Plus it all connects together as forms of disassociation, and increases understanding of the subject exponentially, I think.

Yes and it is confirmation of some, for the lack of a better word, esoteric concepts from a different source, a corroboration of some sort.
The secondary traumas seems to me, a good way of inflicting soul smashing in all of us, bit by bit. This may be far fetched but can we consider the so called 9 to 17 routine, our numbing jobs, and popular culture causation factors of secondary trauma in humans? They certainly cause dissociation as Stout talks in the book.
It could be even a dissociation not so much for the mental aspect but for the soul/spiritual aspect, because the soul strives for other things, no? This numbing daily routine hammers ours souls, thus creating little soul smashing events.

 

[Kila]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

I just finished the Myth of Sanity and I realized that this is some very pivotal information for me.

I, too, experienced quite a bit of horror in my childhood and I'm sure I have some dissociation . I could relate to a lot of what was said. I don't have lost time and I do have a sense of a central "I", so I experience these dissociative states sort of as moods. But the 'moods' have always felt like different people, or personalities.
And I do have problems with memory and depression.

There is one me that experienced the horror and I can remember clearly sort of deciding to send her away, putting her away. The memory is sort of like a dream almost but then seeing this other me show up that was her protector, so instead of being afraid I could be angry and survive and get away. Anyway, when I am operating within this I do get things done and I can pretty much endure anything, it's almost like I don't have any emotions at all. I am very effective and without any fear at all.

The other me, well, she has all the memories and horror and all I can do within that is break into pieces and cry and I'm immobilized. I think there are also a few other parts floating around there but those are the two major players.

Also, as horrible as my childhood was, it was a walk in the park compared to what my mother endured in an Indian orphanage from the time she was 8 years old. And while she had been diagnosed with manic depression and paranoia I really think what she had was DID. She definitely lost time. She would go to the store and not come back for several days with no explanation. She would beat me and then ask how I got this or that bruise. She would be suicidal and then wake up one morning and make pancakes like nothing had happened. Every day I would come home from school and listen at the door trying to determine the 'flavor' the 'mood' I was walking into, who I needed to be.

At the end of the book she talks about integrating these various parts into a whole, but doesn't go into much detail. Is there some other book I should read now? Because I can't really afford any therapy or anything like that.


Also are these behaviors the 'programs' that I hear everyone talking about?

Another thing I will say is that a lot of times I'm typing something like this on this forum and it's all I can do to keep my train of thought and keep my fingers typing. Like someone is screaming at me to shut up.
So anyway, the book was good I guess in that I'm not as crazy as some and probably no more crazy than a lot of functional people.

It was also very useful to see the distinction between schizophrenia and DID, only my mom and her next oldest sister had been in the orphanage and I think her sister also had episodes of DID but maybe not as extreme.
I had two older aunts that were both diagnosed with schizophrenia and I can now see the differences pretty clearly.

My mom was institutionalized twice while I was young for suicide attempts, but I don't think they ever really got her figured out. In that as soon as she would 'snap out of it' and give them all the right answers they would release her. But I always knew it was just a matter of time before without any kind of warning really, she would slit her writsts again or take a bottle of pills, or try to kill me.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Also, as horrible as my childhood was, it was a walk in the park compared to what my mother endured in an Indian orphanage from the time she was 8 years old. And while she had been diagnosed with manic depression and paranoia I really think what she had was DID. She definitely lost time. She would go to the store and not come back for several days with no explanation. She would beat me and then ask how I got this or that bruise. She would be suicidal and then wake up one morning and make pancakes like nothing had happened. Every day I would come home from school and listen at the door trying to determine the 'flavor' the 'mood' I was walking into, who I needed to be.

Thanks for sharing this Kila. I think it's a very important insight on your part about the cycle of pathology. It's horrible what happened to your mother, and horrible that the abuse she suffered carried over to you. Neither is excusable, but both are understandable. The good thing is that knowledge is the first and best healer. The more we know, the better we can come to understand and "re-groove" what has been distorted.

Do a search on the forum for John Schumaker's book "The Corruption of Reality". He makes a very good point that most mental illness is dissociative in nature, including paranoia. It's like a stabilized form of extreme "subconscious selection and substitution of premises", as Lobaczewski called it.

At the end of the book she talks about integrating these various parts into a whole, but doesn't go into much detail. Is there some other book I should read now? Because I can't really afford any therapy or anything like that.

Perhaps others have more recommendations, but I think one of the most beneficial things you can do is to continue the EE program. It works on the emotional center and all those things "under the surface" that can't really be accessed or modified with the intellectual center.

Also are these behaviors the 'programs' that I hear everyone talking about?

Partially. Programs are tendencies that have been formed in the centers (emotional-intellectual, which are expressed in actions) via trauma and lack of proper "teaching" on the part of mentors. For example, in paranoia fears become obsessions that control one's thoughts and behaviors. Just one example of a defense mechanism/"program".

Another thing I will say is that a lot of times I'm typing something like this on this forum and it's all I can do to keep my train of thought and keep my fingers typing. Like someone is screaming at me to shut up.
So anyway, the book was good I guess in that I'm not as crazy as some and probably no more crazy than a lot of functional people.

That's an example of a program. That inner screaming is a defense mechanism, a "negative introject", and if you listen to it, you will end up not sharing, and not receiving feedback. In this way the "predator's mind", which is fearful of being discovered, keeps control, and change is forestalled.

 

[go2]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

At the end of the book she talks about integrating these various parts into a whole, but doesn't go into much detail. Is there some other book I should read now?

Perhaps others have more recommendations, but I think one of the most beneficial things you can do is to continue the EE program. It works on the emotional center and all those things "under the surface" that can't really be accessed or modified with the intellectual center.

Hi Kila, Bo has compiled an EE Guide/FAQ with answers to questions on the EE thread.
The answer to question twenty-nine shows how the accumulated knowledge of the work is
integrated by the emotional access of the EE program. This answer clarified many of my own
questions on how to best continue “cleaning the machine.” The separation of the emotional and
intellectual functions appears central to the Work. It is a key to integration, speaking of paradoxes.
I am posting the beginning of Question 29. I wish you well, Kila.

29. QUESTION:As far as keeping sensations below the neck, I think I've missed to read it. If it's not too much to ask, can you point it out ? Is it in regard to physical/inner sensations or in regards to feelings/behaviors/actions that arise & projected to external world (aka in work - keep your anger below the neck )?

ANSWER:Just for the sake of clarity here, "keeping emotions below the neck" does not mean not expressing emotions, it means not allowing emotions (or emotional energy) to be "usurped" by the intellect and converted into theories etc. It is better to simply express the emotion as it is, in some way or other.
ADDED to the above answer;

Most people avoid their (painful)emotions by suppressing them, in this process the individual believes that he has moved on, if someone looks at one’s own painful emotions, it's quite clear that you will experience suffering, but this suffering is needed for you to accept the emotion, understand the emotion, and move beyond it.

We all have our attachments to certain emotions, it is such a relief to deal with these emotions, you feel like reborn, a feeling which cannot be describe.

[…]

 

[Kila]

Re: "The Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout

Hi Kila, Bo has compiled an EE Guide/FAQ with answers to questions on the EE thread.
The answer to question twenty-nine shows how the accumulated knowledge of the work is
integrated by the emotional access of the EE program. This answer clarified many of my own
questions on how to best continue “cleaning the machine.” The separation of the emotional and
intellectual functions appears central to the Work. It is a key to integration, speaking of paradoxes.
I am posting the beginning of Question 29. I wish you well, Kila.

Thank you .. I've read that now. I haven't been doing the EE program but I will start today.

Do a search on the forum for John Schumaker's book "The Corruption of Reality". He makes a very good point that most mental illness is dissociative in nature, including paranoia. It's like a stabilized form of extreme "subconscious selection and substitution of premises", as Lobaczewski called it.

I searched the forum but didn't find anything, but then weirdly enough it was sitting on the table right next to me. When I went to the library and got the Myth of Sanity, quite a few of the books I wanted they didn't have so I grabbed a couple of books on the shelf next to it that looked interesting, and I must have grabbed that book..so I have it... wow..
I'll start reading it today. I'm also reading the Mask of Sanity and it's interesting but I'm not having the same kind of deja vu going on with it.

I also read the thread suppression vs control of emotions I think and that was useful too.

Can I also ask... is the predator mind.. is that a Castaneda thing?

I think I understand what programs are.. I will do a search on that. Is that Gurdjieff or Ouspensky?