The $%$$&%$@ next door

[Psalehesost]

It is not only wishful thinking but also dangerous to assume violent people are that way because they are cowards

I'm not assuming all violent people are cowards. I'm saying a man beating his wife (physically weaker sex) is a coward.

That a predator chooses weaker prey does not necessarily imply cowardliness on behalf of the predator. (it may or may not be the case, and the fact that the predator chooses weaker prey could be the result of another factor) You seem to me to be doing what is usually done with this common meme (assuming that the one who preys on the weak is a coward), namely to mechanically assign an undesirable quality to a person found disgusting as a way of exacting moral condemnation.

 

[Beau]

I'm not assuming all violent people are cowards. I'm saying a man beating his wife (physically weaker sex) is a coward.

That is still an assumption E. You cannot possibly know this to be a fact. Because of that, it would be unwise to take action based on such an assumption. Their are a myriad of reasons why a man would be beating a woman. To tell someone to act based on the "fact" that this person is a coward is to be blind to all other possibilities, including that said person may be a psychopath and target anyone who tries to stop them from doing whatever they please to anyone. It seems you have a naive view of such actions.

 

[mada85]

The pathological in the apartment next door is beating his wife and screaming at the top of his lungs.

When I was responding to Perceval he stormed out the door and she ran out after him.

I have a wife and step-son here that I'm responsible for.

Phone the police, go next door and knock on the door, when they open up you say you live next door, you heard the commotion and that you have notified the police and they're on their way. Tell the wife to get her child and come and wait in your apartment till the police arrive.

E, from your posts in this thread, it sounds like you’re high from your recent experience of ‘feeling the fear and doing it anyway’ and you think that others should behave in a similar way. MC has a child to consider, and life could be made very difficult indeed if the guy next door comes after him. If I was in MC’s position, I would think very carefully indeed about what to do and how to do it.

MC said that the guy was beating his wife. How could MC know that unless he had seen it? Most human beings cannot see through walls! Therefore we can’t take that as a fact. The guy might be making lots of noise and screaming, but that does not mean he is beating her. Also, would she really run after him if he had been beating her? I wouldn’t. I’d be glad he had gone. Perhaps then would be the time for MC to go round there and ask if she needed, or wanted, any help.

Thus my advice would also be to call the police but stay anonymous. Wise as serpents, gentle as doves... Might be wrong, though.

That is sound advice Carcosa.

 

[Adaryn]

E, you hardly know anything about that situation, about this guy, and yet you state "facts" about them as if you're absolutely certain they're facts. The guy could indeed be a psychopath and go after MC or his family. We don't know. As others also pointed out, you seem to be identified with the "saviour/hero" programme, because of your recent experience. You're "proud" because you think you did what was right. What if that was not the case? Not implying that was not the right thing to do, it might have been, but given we don't know the details, no one can give you feedback about it.

I do have a problem with Mountain Crown 'not even' phoning the police.

You cannot apply your personal experience to others and expect them to react like you think you would, according to what YOU think is right. Each situation is unique. And you seem to bring down MC, covertly implying he's - like this guy - a coward, and possibly complicit because of his inaction and doubts over what to do. Maybe I misread what you wrote, and sorry if that's the case. If so, I hope you'll clarify.

 

[Buddy]

It is not only wishful thinking but also dangerous to assume violent people are that way because they are cowards. I've lived long enough to know that some people are violent by nature and/or love it. There are also people who crave it to be done to them.

I agree. When we really try to understand the pathologies of narcissism and psychopaths, we can see that there are manifestations of masochism involved in all kinds of relationships. There is a deep down need to submit to authorities (internally and externally) and when one is in the role of the authority, there is a deep-down need to make others submit to their assumed authority.

This is very dangerous territory to navigate and so, simply labelling the guy a coward, as E suggests, as if to imply the solution is clear, is not necessarily enough.

Yes, he may be a coward, but the thing narcissists, psychopaths and other characteropathies fear the most is exposure as such, not necessarily labels that justify calling the police, so the probability of solving the problem may have been made more difficult.

We can choose our actions, but we cannot always choose the consequences of those actions as long as people have their own neural patterns, meanings and interpretations of what they see, so an action (like calling the cops) may be appropriate for a person with a certain lesson profile (who needs to learn what can happen from such an action), it cannot be stated so emphatically for someone else.

When Perceval asked if there was a good reason not to call the police, I answered things were unclear, then it was over. So essentially I would have been reporting to the police after the fact (an accusation, if you will,) which is another story. It is even more unclear now that I've seen the both of them.

What I got from this was that Mountain Crown indicated that he had an intuitive grasp of the situation and that he was unclear that the situation would end up needing police intervention. (I understand this is not proof that this incident couldn't have been different though).This appears to be a pattern that M.C. has been repeatedly exposed to and this grasp may have been borne out with the observation that the couple was out smoking together later, with no apparant injuries.

Having indicated the next step of recapitulating the event in order to learn something from it, my impression is that everything is going along perfectly.

 

[Erna]

Okay, I apologise Mountain Crown. Carcosa's right, your family's safety certainly comes first, if we consider that he's possibly a psychopath. It was also a mistake to compare situations, mine is certainly not possibly life threatening. Quite the contrary...

The beating for me made it for me a pretty straight shut decision.

[quote author=Csayeursost ]
You seem to me to be doing what is usually done with this common meme (assuming that the one who preys on the weak is a coward), namely to mechanically assign an undesirable quality to a person found disgusting as a way of exacting moral condemnation.
[/quote]

I see what you're saying.

[quote author=Pinkerton]

I'm not assuming all violent people are cowards. I'm saying a man beating his wife (physically weaker sex) is a coward.

That is still an assumption E. You cannot possibly know this to be a fact. Because of that, it would be unwise to take action based on such an assumption.
[/quote]

You're right. Every situation is certainly unique. My first (and only) impulse was to remove the mother and child from the situation.

Maybe I just need a bit of a sabbatical or something. I see how my approach was offensive.

 

[go2]

Hi Mountain Crown,

Much of the advice on this thread seems based on facts that aren't clear to me.
Did you see the man beating his wife or is this an assumption based on screaming next door?
Did you hear the women screaming?

Absent near certainty of physical threat to self or other human beings it seems a presumption to introduce
police authorities into other's lives, particularly anonymously, without request for help. To clarify, I would consider
a women's screams of terror a call for help.

On a practical note, in the United States, if you call authorities from your telephone number, you will be involved,
as the number and call are recorded.

 

[Beau]

On a practical note, in the United States, if you call authorities from your telephone number, you will be involved, as the number and call are recorded.

Yes, best to call from a public phone or from a business nearby if possible.

 

[Renaissance]

Absent near certainty of physical threat to self or other human beings it seems a presumption to introduce
police authorities into other's lives, particularly anonymously, without request for help. To clarify, I would consider
a women's screams of terror a plea for help.

I see it differently. Yelling at another person or even yelling in the presence of a child is a form of violence, and it easily damages. It's a common misunderstanding that domestic violence is defined by a physical threat, and it's sad that so many need to see such severe signs in order to act. DV also includes non-physical and passive aggressive actions against another in the home. If aggression extends out into the community, then I would also think it's an act against the community of which you are a part. I don't think it's a presumption to call the police in those cases.

 

[go2]

I don't think it's a presumption to call the police in those cases.

I agree with your definition of domestic violence and would there were courageous and loving human beings who could approach ones in conflict and offer remedy without resorting to calling on the often ponerized criminal justice system and police violence to teach our neighbors appropriate behavior. I hesitate to command police coercion into others lives as something is amiss in treating violence with more violence.

I have been most deeply influenced by a few honest and gentle words from a neighbor
in nearly identical circumstances to those Mountain Crown observed. That being said,
I recognize there are circumstances or context where your reaction is appropriate.

I don’t know how its applies in this discussion, but a thought has repeatedly returned as I followed this thread. FWIW---“There is good and there is evil, and the context determines which”. Simple situations are often more complex than they first appear. Thank you for your note, Los, I will consider carefully what you are saying, as I am often wrong these days.

 

[anart]

I see it differently. Yelling at another person or even yelling in the presence of a child is a form of violence, and it easily damages. It's a common misunderstanding that domestic violence is defined by a physical threat, and it's sad that so many need to see such severe signs in order to act. DV also includes non-physical and passive aggressive actions against another in the home. If aggression extends out into the community, then I would also think it's an act against the community of which you are a part. I don't think it's a presumption to call the police in those cases.

I agree with Los here - there does not need to be physical violence for domestic abuse to be happening, especially when a child is involved. And - it is not acceptable or okay to have to live next to that.

Maybe I just need a bit of a sabbatical or something. I see how my approach was offensive.

I don't think you need a sabbatical or that your approach was necessarily offensive. It is a VERY emotional topic - we live in a ponerized world where the natural instincts of protection of those who cannot protect themselves get subverted by other considerations. If we, as a species, were living as is natural, without psychopaths distorting and destroying everything, the natural reaction - to protect and stop the abuse - would be a no-brainer. I've been in this situation before and I did call the police, from a business phone to hide my identity. If people who abuse realize they are being watched/listened to and will be reported, it tends to inhibit them - and if its done anonymously, there is no danger.

Ultimately, what empathetic person would not want to intercede and stop the abuse? That's really at the base of the title of the thread - it's wrong and deeply disturbing and MC wants it to stop - the only question seems to be what are the appropriate steps to take to make that happen. At this point, it seems it will have to wait until 'next time' - assuming 'next time' doesn't result in serious physical damage to anyone (or isn't 'too late').

 

[Juba]

Hi Mountain Crown,

Calling Police is never pleasant and I understand your position but doing NOTHING is even worst if this is not a sporadic case and you are sure that you are actual witness of domestic violence most important repeating domestic violence, perhaps calling some social service or SOS line (names of institutions are different from country to country), would be easier to do.
Hope you will find a way.

 

[Pierre]

Hi Mountain Crow,

It is indeed a very emotional and important topic.

Maybe your recent work experience influenced your emotional state.

Maybe your saviour/hero program was another contributing factor.

I'm also wondering to what extent this sentence about your childhood influenced your perceptions of the current topic:

My father had a personality change after only 2 drinks.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Recapitulation of this event has provided clarity.

There is no doubt that the nature of what I was hearing was violent. The viciousness of his voice could only be described as from an animal. The sounds of furniture being tossed around and the slapping of flesh was unmistakable.

After recalling the event and my self as it was happening, it is clear that I did not react on impulse, nor did I intervene, because at the time I had assessed it was not called for. This was not due to fear or from selfishness, my revulsion and empathy I know were genuine, as well as the willingness to do something. There was no evidence of distress such as screaming or crying from her nor their baby. It was an argument with a pathological participant, and the potential to escalate into grave danger, which it didn't.

Intervention, especially by calling the NYPD, is not a light matter, to put it mildly. There is a fine line separating intervening and interfering. To repeat, the situation hadn't called for it yet, but could have. I was not in a confused or impotent state at that time of assessment.

What followed however was different. I hated what was happening even at that level. I also hated what was happening in me. The whole damned thing became painful; I went to the forum for help. By this time I was in a confused state, and was blind to the calm decision to wait until action was warranted. It became about me folks. It was too difficult to just plain go through the bad feelings, even after years of being exposed to evil. These feelings also triggered narcissistic wounds, self doubt, and mechanical rationalizations when responding to those of you who came to help. Mentioning fear for my family if there was retaliation is an example; this would only apply if the decision to intervene was evident.

It may seem odd, but I'm actually glad to have these feelings, any feelings for that matter.

Maybe using the term 'beat' was misleading, I don't know. Violence is violence.

It should also be mentioned that the lady next door is a very intelligent woman with a strong personality. For all I know now she may have been slapping him as well.

Hi Mountain Crow,

It is indeed a very emotional and important topic.

Maybe your recent work experience influenced your emotional state.

Maybe your saviour/hero program was another contributing factor.

I'm also wondering to what extent this sentence about your childhood influenced your perceptions of the current topic:

My father had a personality change after only 2 drinks.

Belibaste, your quote would rightfully be attributed to E. The rest of your post seems to address him as well.

 

[Erna]

Belibaste, your quote would rightfully be attributed to E. The rest of your post seems to address her as well.

Yeah, Belibaste was addressing me here. Sorry Mountain Crown, I shouldn’t have hijacked your thread, especially in the frame of mind that I was in. Note to self: dispose of boxing gloves.

Maybe your recent work experience influenced your emotional state.

It did yes. It’s a long story with a rather swift financial settlement – “irreconcilable differences” stands out like a sore thumb in the settlement. My lawyer who’s ruthless reputation exceeds him, usually does this on behalf of the corporation, but after listening me out, he said he’ll reverse what he usually does, since it’s such an easy case (easy for you maybe!). This was a quick crash course for me in Labour Law though. Our Labour Law is a mouthful, and aggression in the workplace is seen in a very serious light. I didn’t know this a week ago…

When the lawyer send me the first draft, he said in his mail it’s not going to go down well, but it should open the door for negotiations. I was too scared to open the attachment, and when I finally did, it left me cold. So this is how lawyers do it? I don’t have the stomach for this! After I handed it over, the CEO called me in and said “you letter has a bit of a needle in it” and I said “I seeked legal council” and he said “we can see that”.

When I got home the one day last week, after another eventful day of ‘love letters’ flying between our lawyers, one more hurtful than the next, I read this:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image.

Fantastic! (sarcasm) Maybe I should really try the path of least resistance for a change, and just see how that turns out.

I’ve decided to take a while off before I jump in again. I’ve come to the conclusion that corporate is just too hostile for me. The irony is that I do actually despise conflict. The recession is causing everyone to act out of character. Our major income stream has come to a halt for more than 12 months now, and if the banks don't start lending soon, well, who knows. I had these fleeting thoughts of doing something crazy like just leaving everything and go up to the Okavango Delta and do elephant back safaris or something. I should just put that thought aside until my property sells, which have been in the market since Feb 2008. I’m actually realizing now the stress I’ve been under. Geeze Louise! One holiday coming right up!

This was just a week out of hell! First my job, and then Pepperfritz! When it rains, it pours!

I have identified a program or two this week though, so all is not in vain.

Maybe your saviour/hero program was another contributing factor.

Maybe. I’ll be honest though, I’m having a little bit of difficulty here. When do we make the distinction between the necessary course of action or saviour/hero program kicking in?

I'm also wondering to what extent this sentence about your childhood influenced your perceptions of the current topic:

My father had a personality change after only 2 drinks.

Over identification, I guess. A good memory can either be a curse or a blessing. If you decide it’s a blessing, you use it to conclude lessons 10 or even 20 years after the fact.