The Origins of Corn & Bananas

[theos]

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I should have said some minerals. When I think about it, it's calcium and magnesium, although I've come across conflicting information about magnesium over a couple of decades. Also, I may be incorrect in saying "fat soluble" when it comes to the minerals, as even those are obviously water soluble. What I meant was that we can't utilize them in the absence of fat consumed at the same time. I know there are some others (minerals), but I can't think of which ones right now. I might take a look into it if I have some time in the near future. Anyone else know which minerals need to be consumed along with fat for utilization/bioavailability off the top of their heads?

There are vitamins -- A,D, E & K that are fat soluble. Also I've read that magnesium, zinc, iron and calcium are fat soluble minerals. My guess is if it is found in meat or fish then it is fat soluble.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Thanks, Odyssey. Those were the minerals (and the vitamins are more commonly known, I think) I was thinking of. But again, those minerals, at least elemental forms also dissolve in water, so I guess they might be both fat AND water soluble? But for sure, it's not supposed to be absorbed and utilized if not in the presence of fat.

 

[rrraven]

There are close to 1,000 species of banana today. Most of them are inedible - they carry hard pea-sized seeds, and have only a small amount of bad-tasting flesh. The botanists think that about 10,000 years ago, probably in South-East Asia, a random mutation produced a sterile banana with no seeds and lots of flesh that could be eaten uncooked. The internal dark lines and spots inside today's banana are the vestigial remnant of these seeds.

Bananas were taken to India, where Alexander The Great saw them, and where they appear in 2,500-year-old cave paintings. Traders took them from India to East Africa, then overland to West Africa. Portuguese sailors took them to the Canary Islands, from where they got to Haiti by the 15th century. They were imported into North America shortly after European settlement, and became freely available in American fruit markets by the 19th century. from_http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/09/08/1453046.htm

as for maize ...

The history of modern-day maize begins at the dawn of human agriculture, about 10,000 years ago. Ancient farmers in what is now Mexico took the first steps in domesticating maize when they simply chose which kernels (seeds) to plant. These farmers noticed that not all plants were the same. Some plants may have grown larger than others, or maybe some kernels tasted better or were easier to grind. The farmers saved kernels from plants with desirable characteristics and planted them for the next season's harvest.( a corn mother,a cob to save as next years seed,has 4 perfect kernels at the top) This process is known as selective breeding or artificial selection. Maize cobs became larger over time, with more rows of kernels, eventually taking on the form of modern maize. from_http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/variation/corn/
had to be grown in clumps too http://i.azcentral.com/commphoto_images/commphotos/1/4/2/142538.jpg

and barley...
Remains of barley (Hordeum vulgare) grains found at archaeological sites in the Fertile Crescent indicate that about 10,000 years ago the crop was domesticated there from its wild relative Hordeum spontaneum.from_http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/4/499.full

what do they have in common
10000 years ago mutation
indigenous people tell of gods giving seeds and the"art" of agriculture

did comets(gods) mutate existing grasses and animals 10000 years ago ?

 

[Mike]

what do they have in common
10000 years ago mutation
indigenous people tell of gods giving seeds and the"art" of agriculture

did comets(gods) mutate existing grasses and animals 10000 years ago ?

or as an example did Quetzalcoatl (the feathered serpent god) worship stem from 4D STS beings (Lizzies) appearing and instigating the rise of agriculture.

 

[SeekinTruth]

what do they have in common
10000 years ago mutation
indigenous people tell of gods giving seeds and the"art" of agriculture

did comets(gods) mutate existing grasses and animals 10000 years ago ?

or as an example did Quetzalcoatl (the feathered serpent god) worship stem from 4D STS beings (Lizzies) appearing and instigating the rise of agriculture.

Maybe it's both? 4D STS used the circumstances of cometary disasters to manipulate humans into agricultural activities and worship of a certain kind? Just throwing out some possible things that don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive.

 

[trendsetter37]

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I should have said some minerals. When I think about it, it's calcium and magnesium, although I've come across conflicting information about magnesium over a couple of decades. Also, I may be incorrect in saying "fat soluble" when it comes to the minerals, as even those are obviously water soluble. What I meant was that we can't utilize them in the absence of fat consumed at the same time. I know there are some others (minerals), but I can't think of which ones right now. I might take a look into it if I have some time in the near future. Anyone else know which minerals need to be consumed along with fat for utilization/bioavailability off the top of their heads?

There are vitamins -- A,D, E & K that are fat soluble. Also I've read that magnesium, zinc, iron and calcium are fat soluble minerals. My guess is if it is found in meat or fish then it is fat soluble.

Right. If i'm not mistaken vitamins B and C are the only water soluble vitamins BUT vitamin C is in direct competition with glucose in regards to the biochemical mechanism needed for uptake. As a matter of fact I believe sott carried an article not too long ago that referenced a study where high carb diets almost definitely always led to vit. C deficiency. So naturally a high carb low fat diet will also lead to vitamin C deficiency. Vitamin B on the other hand we all know doesn't primarily come from carby foods but meat. So maybe some minerals follow this method of operation and are in competition with glucose and cannot be utilized on a high/glucose diet.

Minerals on the other hand are mostly water soluble because they are tend to be polar, similar to water's extreme polar characteristics. This may seem incredibly off topic but a couple days ago I had to use magnesium sulfate to dry an oily/fatty material because it (the magnesium sulfate) is so water hungry it sucks any water based moisture out of the final product! It was pretty cool to watch it suck the water out of the oily compound we were targeting. Conversely i've also notices that salt (sodium chloride) (similar to magnesium salts) definitely do not dissolve in my ghee butter or bacon fat dipping sauces. Fwiw.

 

[wmu9]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the hilarious and naively creationist "Atheist's Nightmare" with Kirk Cameron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4 Silly as it is, some of the refutations are equally silly in pseudo-rationality. I really enjoy reading threads like this one, but often feel I have nothing to contribute, so I "lurk".

 

[H-KQGE]

Could this be a case of "time's up" for the banana?

_http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/show/Panama-disease-spreads-among-bananas-again.htm

Panama disease spreads among bananas again

Published on November 1, 2013 By Plant Research International

Panama disease is causing significant damage in banana cultivation in Southeast Asia. Together with a number of partners, scientists from Wageningen UR (University & Research Centre) have demonstrated that the disease – caused by the fungus Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. cubense – has now also migrated to Jordan. This means that Panama disease is becoming increasingly widespread and major banana-producing countries in Africa and Latin America are also under threat. A concerted international approach is needed to safeguard the food security of millions of people. The results of the study were published in the scientific journal Plant Disease.

The banana is not just the world’s favourite fruit – for many people it is a vital important source of food. During the twentieth century, tens of thousands of hectares of banana plantations in Latin America were destroyed by Panama disease. Banana plants died en masse and soils are contaminated for decades. The introduction of the resistant Cavendish banana variety saved the day and clones of the Cavendish banana are now cultivated worldwide. Late last century, however, a new, highly aggressive strain of the fungus was discovered in Southeast Asia. Tropical Race 4 (TR4) is starting to have a huge effect on the Cavendish cultivar in Southeast Asia and there is currently no way to protect the banana.

Panama disease detected in Jordan

Panama disease on the move. Jordan: new problem area

There were suspicions a few years ago that some banana plantations in Jordan were infected with Panama disease. The Jordanian Ministry of Agriculture later sent samples of the fungus to Professor Randy Ploetz of the University of Florida, who forwarded them to Gert Kema, a scientist at Wageningen UR. PhD students from Gert Kema’s research group infected different banana plants with the fungus from the Jordan samples. These plants developed the same symptoms as banana plants infected with samples from Southeast Asia. Subsequent DNA tests showed that the Jordan strains were identical to TR4. The scientists have thereby established that TR4 has now spread beyond Southeast Asia.

Major threat to Africa and Latin America
Banana plants ainfected with Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. cubense

IRelatively few bananas are grown in Jordan – bananas are cultivated on around 1000-1500 hectares – but 80% of the plantations are now infected. It is unclear how Panama disease spread from Southeast Asia. Gert Kema argues that it is only a question of time before TR4 reaches Africa. In Africa, bananas are an important part of people’s diet, and the introduction and spread of Panama disease would threaten the food security of millions. “A concerted international approach is now needed to prevent the spread of Panama disease and, in the worst-case scenario, contain it”, Kema states.

Wageningen UR carried out this research together with the University of Florida, the Jordanian National Centre for Agricultural Research and Extension, and the University of Jordan. The study was funded by INREF, a public-private partnership between Wageningen UR and various international partners. INREF focuses on finding solutions to counter the disastrous effects of Panama disease.

Or not. Interestingly, south-east Asia pops up again in relation to "random" mutation. Would it really be a bad thing for bananas to disappear? Millions would have to find another source of sustenance where minerals & vitamins are concerned & not, more fruit. I imagine that there aren't many fruit that could/would survive certain hostile conditions & be able to rise (& compete) from them into a more hospitable one.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Intriguing. Looks like another problem on the horizon. It's worrying for those who depend on these undependable sources of food. I guess it's wait and see what happens next....

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Yes, in the meantime they keep eating fruit until it is no longer possible. So it's like they would die of starvation or eating something similar that kills them slowly (or perhaps quickly, depending on the individual). But I do not know, is terrible have to rely on these foods (and probably the ptb would say something like they should give thanks for being able to eat something). Although we must be optimistic that the need take them to other type of food (meat), and carry it out. Yes SeekinTruth, wait and see, or I think so.

 

[H-KQGE]

From what I can tell, many millions are likely to die (maybe not solely from it but some other related issues) from type-2 diabetes as well as Alzheimer's from "crazy carb" (high/excessive amounts) & grains. The sugar & wheat alone has shown in studies to be dominant factors in neurodevelopmental disorders. New research has already looked at a "type-3" diabetes explosion in the coming years too. By that I mean that they're calling Alzheimer's "type-3", this means that hormone dysregulation or problematic pancreas trouble, or endocrine disruption leaves a vast amount of the populace open to not just great suffering, but painful deaths. Here I'm referring to loading of the atmosphere from comets & meteor strikes (Tunguska types aren't even necessary to do wide damage of land masses, hits in the "right" place will be bad enough) as well as the increasing problems with the environment that adds to many brain disorders.

After watching that National Geographic video (American blackout 2013 thread) I would imagine people scrambling for more sugary substances (psychology is part of it to as in "feeling low eat chocolate" etc) & survive for a while & end up with insulin resistance, exacerbate existing conditions, then end up with nerve damage for instance. (or their heart explodes) After all, high levels of sugar are literally toxic, so in a time of extreme stress these things might catch up really quickly. Basically I'm saying that I think that "food" coupled with space-borne pathogens is going to wipe out a ton of people probably more than we think.

 

[davey72]

So what is the difference between bananas, and plantains?

 

[H-KQGE]

So what is the difference between bananas, and plantains?

Good question. My limited knowledge of it is basically that, plantains are large & are meant to be cooked. They're also pretty starchy. Bananas are small & are consumed raw, also they are very sugary. There's probably more to it though, maybe others can add more?

 

[SeekinTruth]

The other thing that is striking is that Alzheimer's is being seen in younger and younger people - it's not uncommon now to see people in their 30's suffering from it. There's quite a bit of historical evidence, as well, that during plagues, those who eat a predominantly meat and animal fat diet are the ones that survive.

 

[SovereignDove]

So what is the difference between bananas, and plantains?

Good question. My limited knowledge of it is basically that, plantains are large & are meant to be cooked. They're also pretty starchy. Bananas are small & are consumed raw, also they are very sugary. There's probably more to it though, maybe others can add more?

I didn't find much more information on the difference between bananas and plantains than is found here, but there is this from: _http://eol.org/data_objects/15632675

Musa is a genus over 50 of tropical monocot tree-like plants, important for food, fiber, and ornamentals. The genus, now grown in wet tropical areas worldwide, includes bananas and plantains—the fourth most cultivated food crop in the world, with 2009 global production of 97.4 million tons, harvested from 4.9 million hectares. Prominent species include Musa acuminata and M. balbisiana (wild progenitors of the complex hybrids that make up modern bananas and plantains), and M. textilis (Manila hemp or abacá), cultivated for fiber that is used in rope, paper products, and tea bags

Bananas and plantains derive from the same species, but vary in proportion of sugar to starch. Cultivars with high sugar are called bananas, and eaten fresh or cooked when green; those with high starch (plantains and cooking bananas) are eaten only after cooking. Both are high in carbohydrates, fiber, potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, and several vitamins. Bananas are eaten fresh, pureed for baby food, and cooked in diverse dishes typical of tropical cuisines. Fruits, leaves, and stems have numerous traditional medicinal uses, including treating dysentery, diarrhea, and digestive disorders (see Morton 1987).

And from this link: _http://old.iita.org/cms/details/trn_mat/irg66/irg661.html

Plantain and banana (Musa spp., or Musa in this document) are giant perennial herbs (Figure 1) which originated in Southeast Asia. Plantain and banana cultivars evolved by natural hybridization between the two species M. acuminata (contributing genome A) and M. balbisiana (contributing genome B).

All plantains and almost all important bananas are triploid (2n = 3x = 33 chromosomes). Plantain and banana are monocotyledonous plants, belonging to the section Eumusa within the genus Musa of the family Musaceae in the order Scitamineae (Table 1).

There are differences shown in Table 2 of the research guide, but I can't seem to copy and paste the table.

All banana cultivars have the same type of inflorescence (or 'bunch'). Plantains have different types, and this can be used to subdivide and classify plantains.

French Horn plantain is an intermediate type between French plantain and False Horn plantain.

French plantain. The inflorescence is complete at maturity. Hands consist of numerous rather small fingers, followed by the bunch axis covered with persistent neutral flowers. The terminal male bud is large and persistent.

False Horn plantain. The inflorescence is incomplete. Hands consist of large fingers followed by a few neutral flowers. At maturity, no male bud is present.

French Horn plantain. The inflorescence resembles the inflorescence of False Horn plantain, but French Horn has many more neutral flowers.

Horn plantain. The inflorescence is incomplete. There are few hands, consisting of a few large fingers. Neutral flowers and male bud are not present. A tail or protuberance terminates the bunch axis. Horn plantain resembles False Horn plantain, but has larger fingers and no neutral flowers.

Height of pseudostem. The height of the pseudostem, that is, the distance between the soil and the petioles of the highest leaves, is used for sub-grouping plantain cultivars into 'giant', 'medium', and 'small' (Figure 3). Musa clones with short internodes are called 'dwarf' cultivars.

Genome composition. Genotypes are classified by the genome composition, that is, the expression of M. acuminata and M. balbisiana characteristics (Table 3). Dessert banana and East African highland cooking/ beer bananas are categorized as AAA, plantains as AAB, and cooking bananas as ABB.

FWIW.