The Proper Use Of Free Will In Raising A Child

[webglider]

My seventeen year old daughter is not doing well in school. She's an excellent reader, deep thinker, insightful writer but is failing three subjects all related to reading, thinking, and writing - her strong points. She is failing because she is not handing in her work on time, not completing her assignments, or giving the teacher no work at all.

She has also been giving me misleading information - telling me that assignments were done when they were not. Now that the whole story is finally out, much damage has already occurred in terms of her ability to win a scholarship which will limit the choices of colleges she will be able to attend as I have not been able to save much for her college tuition.

This though is the least of the issues. Not every child is cut out for college work, or ready for it college after graduation from high school. I would be happy if my daughter learned a trade, was happy with it, and was able to support herself.

My concern is that she is living in a dream. Her thoughts are full of anime, and fashion - which is fine in their place. She spends a lot of time on her appearance, but does not feel pretty although she is quite beautiful. Just last night she told me that she does not want to grow up.

Her best friend also lives in a dream, also does not do well in school. She has a more outgoing personality than my daughter has, is much more rebellious, somewhat charismatic, and has a great influence on my daughter who feels that this friend is the only one who understands her unconditionally. This friend's family has decided that she is not yet ready for college, and as this friend, unlike my daughter, attends a progressive private school, and the parents can pay, the school has agreed to keep her an extra year.

Last night, in addition to telling me that she does not want to grow up, my daugher told me that she would feel strange if her friend were still in high school while she was in college.

I am concerned that my daughter may be either deliberately or subconsciously sabotaging her work so that she will not have the credits to graduate on time. I believe that she did this once before in 9th grade when she wanted to go to the same school as her friend.
She began cutting to such an extent that the school was at the point of throwing her out.

I relented and put her into the school her friend was was attending, (I felt I had no choice in the public school system at that point) and it took all my savings. I had grave misgivings about that school, which proved to be accurate. It was so disastrous that my daughter herself asked to be taken out of that school after two years.

Now she's in her third high school. It's a very decent school for a public school in New York City. There are high expectations, (unlike the former school which has no expectations), and my daughter seems unconcerned that she is in danger of failing two classes which will prevent her from graduating on time.

The school has assigned a social worker to work with my daughter, and she is also assigned to work in the Guidance Office where the guidance counselor can keep an eye on her. She has a sheet that she will now take to each teacher to sign off on attendance, and work.
My daughter is hopelessly disorganized. She did not hand in some of her work because it was buried so deeply in the clutter in her room that she could not find it. She has always resisted my attempts to help her with organization, but now I feel that the situation is desperate.

So today, I organized all of her papers by creating files and filing them away. I cleaned out her closets. I swept the floor, and dusted. Two weeks ago I took most of her escapist reading books and put them in storage. My rationale is that the less she has to deal with, and the less clutter there is, the easier it will be for her to think.

She did not want me to do this, but I did it anyway so as I am writing this, I have not yet experienced the scene that will ensue when she comes home to find that I have disregarded her wishes.

The stakes are pretty high. The school that my daugher attends is given a report card grade based partly on the number of students who graduate on time. My concern is that to protect themselves, they will transfer my daughter to one of the large, failing high schools
is she will bring down their rating.

She has the only bedroom in our small apartment. I sleep on a couch in the living room.
I am getting really fed up with this arrangement, and I have been saying for years that if she doesn't keep her room reasonably tidy, I will take it from her. Now, as I am storing more and more of her things, I am consciously sending the message that this time I am serious.

I also told her that she can not live in my house if she continues to lie to me. On Open School Afternoon, even though the news was not good, at least I had heard it from her
first and although I was upset, I was not angry.

I love my daughter, but I am emotionally and physically exhausted from this years' long scenario where nothing ever seems to change. I am really worried about my her.
I have friends who say that I should just let her experience the consequences of her actions. But when their children were in school, the whole world was different.

I have been very considerate of my daughter's wishes. I have denied myself many things so that she could have opportunities. But now I am at a point that I no longer want to continue doing this. I am feeling many difficult emotions: resentment, anger, concern, and frustration so maybe I am not thinking clearly. I am often not able to focus on my own work.

Maybe some members of this forum can see the situation more clearly than I, or suggest a book or an article that will give me more clarity.

 

[webglider]

Well, my daughter came home and took all the carefully organized folders out of the file cabinet and threw them on the floor. Then she locked herself in the bathroom.

Then I received this email from one of her teachers:


I received _____'s outline and it was skeletal at the very best. There was virtually nothing written on the page, and I am extremely concerned. She must submit an outline in order to submit a draft, and this does not fulfill the requirements of an outline. Please have her resubmit the outline as soon as possible. Additionally, please know that her rough draft must be submitted by April 29th. If it is not submitted by this day her paper will not be read and she will fail.
Thank you,
___________

If she fails, she won't graduate.

 

[Rhansen]

She is failing because she is not handing in her work on time, not completing her assignments, or giving the teacher no work at all.

She has also been giving me misleading information - telling me that assignments were done when they were not.

My concern is that she is living in a dream.

My daughter is hopelessly disorganized.

This sounds a lot like my 12 year old son. We (his mother and I) have been battling with him over school work for close to two years now.

I am concerned that my daughter may be either deliberately or subconsciously sabotaging her work so that she will not have the credits to graduate on time. I believe that she did this once before in 9th grade when she wanted to go to the same school as her friend.

I relented and put her into the school her friend was was attending

It's possible that she is being manipulative, but I can't say that with any certainty.

I have friends who say that I should just let her experience the consequences of her actions.

That's the direction I am leaning, let them learn the lesson on their own, but I could be wrong. To do this in my case would involve a major battle with my partner - she has quite different ideas which I won't get into here.
Maybe somebody else will chime in with some sage advice.

 

[Meg]

Hi Webglider,

There is some invaluble information in these two threads (and many others) about our relationships with other people, especially the people we care about.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=5732.msg38936#msg38936 Marital conflict, children and the work

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4907.msg32327#msg32327 Can doing THE WORK in a non-collinear relationship be TRUE LOVE?


Have you read the QFS recommended readings on Narcissism?

Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb

The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M.
Pressman

A complete list of QFS books is here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4718.msg31032#msg31032

If anything, those can guide you on what not to do:) Happy Reading.

 

[PepperFritz]

You indicate your daughter does not want to "grow up", and that she seems to be living in a dream. It seems to me that you have only two choices here:

(1) You can assist your daughter to stay asleep within her dream of delayed adolescence (as her friend's parents did when they agreed to let her prolong high-school until she is "ready"); or

(2) You can step back and let her experience the "shocks" of growing up.

In the event that your daughter succeeds in sabotaging herself (i.e. fails to graduate and/or does not attend college), the following actions on your part will help to keep her asleep indefinitely: If you allow her to continue living at home and occupy the only bedroom in the house without (a) holding down a job and contributing an equitable amount to the rent and household expenses, and (b) contributing an equitable amount of time and effort in household chores such as cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. And if you continue to fund her fashion "hobby" and other personal expenses.

The following actions on your part will allow your daughter to experience the shocks that will potentially wake her from her dream, and assume the responsibilities of an adult (whether she is "ready" or not): Letting her know NOW (while she is still able to make "different" decisions about her future) how her life and responsibilities will change when she is no longer in school. Giving her a reasonable period of time (starting from her last day of attending school) within which she must secure a full-time job. Detailing how much of her earnings she will then have to contribute to rent and expenses, and what her share of the household chores will be, in the event that she wishes to continue living in your apartment. Letting her know that until she obtains a job, you will provide her with only enough money to meet her basic needs, and that after she obtains a job (or the deadline for obtaining a job passes, whichever comes first) you will no longer provide her with any monies whatsoever.

You will have to make it clear that in the event your daughter fails to make reasonable efforts to obtain a job and meet her responsibilities as an adult, you will be prepared to kick her out of the house and change the locks as soon as you are legally able to do so (i.e. her 18th birthday). You will also need to take steps to convince her that your intentions are SERIOUS by making her face some IMMEDIATE consequences: i.e., kick her out of the bedroom and onto the couch, and no longer provide her with any monies beyond those required to meet her basic needs. And, finally, you will have to work hard to discipline YOURSELF to get control of all of your feelings of protective concern and guilt that will stand in the way of your taking these steps.

That's my perspective, for what it is worth.

 

[anart]

Hi webglider. It sounds like the situation has progressed to the point that there is no easy answer. I think pepperfritz has some good input - at this point you either take a stand and make it clear to your daughter that she does not go to college at all unless she graduates on time - or you succumb to her manipulations and she learns nothing. Perhaps it is even too late for that - could you talk to her teachers and request some special treatment if she goes above and beyond from here on out?

It is a very difficult situation, but she is acting like a child, so treat her like a child - which means she doesn't get a choice - to my understanding, Free Will has nothing to do with children - and a parent's job is getting the child to adulthood safely and well - sounds like, considering your choices in the past, you have a challenge on your hands.

 

[webglider]

I have been a student of Gurdieff for many years; I was once in a 4th Way School but had to leave because I had a bad feeling about my daughter's babysitter, (I was right), and withdrew from the group. I an amazed at how lucky I am to find this forum.

I feel responsible for the situation to a large extent, but I think that the real challenge here is with myself. I have always had issues with anger, but anger won't work in this case. I need to remain silent except to inform my daughter of the consequences that will result from her actions.

After she threw her folders on the floor, I said nothing, put my coat on and left the house for several hours. When I came back, I told her quietly that she was very close to losing her room if she does not take care of it. If the folders are not picked up by tomorrow, they will be thrown out. I set some other conditions and then left. She seems to be doing her homework. I did not ask to see it. I will leave it to her teachers to deal with it.

Hi Webglider,

There is some invaluble information in these two threads (and many others) about our relationships with other people, especially the people we care about.

I have read those threads before posting this one, and I can read them again. Thanks for pointing them out.

You indicate your daughter does not want to "grow up", and that she seems to be living in a dream. It seems to me that you have only two choices here:

(1) You can assist your daughter to stay asleep within her dream of delayed adolescence (as her friend's parents did when they agreed to let her prolong high-school until she is "ready"); or

(2) You can step back and let her experience the "shocks" of growing up.

It is a very difficult situation, but she is acting like a child, so treat her like a child - which means she doesn't get a choice - to my understanding, Free Will has nothing to do with children - and a parent's job is getting the child to adulthood safely and well - sounds like, considering your choices in the past, you have a challenge on your hands.

I agree totally with Anart and Pepperfritz. She needs shocks to wake her up, not lectures, or angry outbursts, or worst of all sympathy, but clear consequences for her actions. I have informed her teachers that this situation must be handled by the school, that I don't want to be drawn into it. This will require more self control on my part than I have ever been able to muster before; I really do "have a challenge on my hands" as anart says, and I hope that I am up for it.

My daughter is worth fighting for, and the stakes are really high. I am willing myself to have faith in her, but I am also resolving to withdraw and tend to my own needs. I have found bitterness in myself recently as well as anger, and nothing, I think, shrivels the soul more that those two emotions.

The irony in all this is that I know that the Universities are being infiltrated, that Margaret Spellings wishes to institute a NCLB paradigm in higher education, that higher education may become as soul-numbing as primary education.

But the issue isn't about education is it? It's developing the will to sustain oneself through life, and that's what I want for my daughter.

In any case, here is the atmosphere she may have to face if she ever makes it to college.

From the April 28th issue of The Nation.

Click here to return to the browser-optimized version of this page.

This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080421/williams


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by Patricia J. Williams

Where Credit Is Due
[from the April 21, 2008 issue]

Recently, a number of colleges and universities, including Harvard, Princeton and Stanford, have instituted significant tuition relief for lower- and middle-income students. The impetus for this move has less to do with generosity than with a 2006 report by Margaret Spellings's Education Department. The document, A Test of Leadership: Charting the Future of U.S. Higher Education, cites concern that upwardly spiraling education costs have threatened the social mobility at the core of American identity. Subsequent legislative proposals have suggested that schools reinvest 5 percent of their endowment in student needs. Since the report also ties accreditation to this expenditure, there has been a flurry of reconsidered financial aid options, from significantly reduced cost to free tuition. This is mostly to the good, although the degree to which this requirement disproportionately affects poorer rather than richer schools remains contentious.

The Spellings report, however, contains other, less salutary recommendations, which could have major implications for all higher education curriculums, from community colleges to graduate institutions. The troubling parts center on the deployment of a hyper-econometric model by which learning itself would be measured. Here's the report's bottom line: "American higher education has become what, in the business world, would be called a mature enterprise: increasingly risk-averse, at times self-satisfied, and unduly expensive.... History is littered with examples of industries that...failed to respond to--or even to notice--changes in the world around them, from railroads to steel manufacturers. Without serious self-examination and reform, institutions of higher education risk falling into the same trap, seeing their market share substantially reduced and their services increasingly characterized by obsolescence." How, one wonders, might the teaching of odes or the exploration of Kant be correlated with the marketability of railroads and steel? Let me count the ways.

First, the report relies on a cost-benefit, "money in, money out" bottom line that would require a system of tracking student performance from pre-K through college and graduate school. While basic reading and math skills can arguably be measured in relatively cut-and-dried ways, the complex nature and increasing interdisciplinarity of higher education makes such measurement a daunting proposition. The Spellings report ignores this with a breathtakingly oversimplified metric: "Student achievement, which is inextricably connected to institutional success, must be measured by institutions on a 'value-added' basis that takes into account students' academic baseline when assessing their results." Crudely put, students would have to be evaluated like a balance sheet. Take the value of what they came in with, then take the value of what they know when they get out. Subtract the former from the latter. The difference is what's known in the world of soybean futures as "value added."

If that weren't weird enough, "This information should be made available to students, and reported publicly in aggregate form to provide consumers and policymakers an accessible, understandable way to measure the relative effectiveness of different colleges and universities." In other words, the results of tests measuring "value-added" performance would be used to grade each school. Ostensibly, a school's grade would be used like the nutrient labels on tubs of potato salad. This system would then assist "consumers" as they bargain-hunt for the very best deal.

Likewise, the "relative effectiveness" of institutions would be measured by only two identified standards: efficiency and accountability. These two measures would apply not merely to financial affairs but to what an efficient steel magnate might call "the delivery" of "the product" in question--in this case, all forms of knowledge.

This new regime can mean all kinds of things, but here's what schools are worried about: standardized tests issued to all freshmen and seniors. Increasingly standardized textbooks and curriculums. Death to liberal arts--how do you measure "efficient" growth via a poetry seminar? Death to fields of study like dance, drama, music, women's or ethnic studies. Fear that universities will be subject to the kind of unhelpful measurements that many elementary schools face because of No Child Left Behind--schools with higher performing students or more creative curriculums unable to show the "required percentage of improvement" graded lower than schools where teaching is unimaginative but easily marked. Or schools with children from traumatized neighborhoods or with few English speakers being "failed" because they aren't progressing at the formulaic rate.

One of the most influential proponents of this corporatized model is Seventh Circuit Judge Richard Posner. Here's Posner on his blog: "The contribution of nonscientific fields to welfare is not negligible, but one does have a sense that in many of them the marginal product is slight or even negative--is there really social value in having 400 English-language philosophy journals...rather than 50?" Posner also worries that too many women are admitted to professional schools, because they are not as "productive" as men in their long-term careers: "The fact that a significant percentage of places in the best professional schools are being occupied by individuals who are not going to obtain the maximum possible value from such an education is troubling from an overall economic standpoint." Therefore, "the gender-neutral policies that govern admission to the elite professional schools illustrate discrimination in favor of women. Were admission to such schools based on a prediction of the social value of the education offered, fewer women would be admitted." Framing education as a "profit-maximizing" "industry" does more than just push women and bards back in the box. It takes aim at the joy, play and very love of lifelong learning as irrelevant externalities to be eliminated for their irrational, trade-penalizing transaction costs.

 

[anart]

The irony in all this is that I know that the Universities are being infiltrated, that Margaret Spellings wishes to institute a NCLB paradigm in higher education, that higher education may become as soul-numbing as primary education.

The Universities were infiltrated decades ago.

 

[GRiM]

I hope this might provide something or at least mirror some aspect you might not have seen? A word of 'warning', Imo alot of the talks on Ted.com is superficial (and the length reflect that) and most of them are on new technology, however a few of them contains a few nuggets.
I do think the problem you and your daughter is experiencing is more related to your own relationship, much like anart said.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/66

Creativity expert[sic..] Sir Ken Robinson challenges the way we're educating our children. He champions a radical rethink of our school systems, to cultivate creativity and acknowledge multiple types of intelligence.

Sir Ken Robinson makes an entertaining (and profoundly moving) case for creating an education system that nurtures creativity, rather than undermining it. With ample anecdotes and witty asides, Robinson points out the many ways our schools fail to recognize -- much less cultivate -- the talents of many brilliant people. "We are educating people out of their creativity," Robinson says. The universality of his message is evidenced by its rampant popularity online. A typical review: "If you have not yet seen Sir Ken Robinson's TED talk, please stop whatever you're doing and watch it now."

 

[go2]

She needs shocks to wake her up, not lectures, or angry outbursts, or worst of all sympathy, but clear consequences for her actions. I have informed her teachers that this situation must be handled by the school, that I don't want to be drawn into it.

The school system may refer your daughter for diagnosis. I have a daughter who ran amuck
at the age of sixteen. She went from a straight A athlete to a flunking drunk over night.
We tried everything to protect and fix her. The school system recommended a psychiatrist who prescribed Aderal for ADHD. She became an Aderal zombie. It is highly addictive amphetamine,
which increased her urge to drink, titrating the effects of the amphetamine. To make a long story short, while worrying about her destiny, I fell out of a tree and damaged the interior cruxicate ligament, which is painful. While lying on my back in the woods, in pain, a thought occured that my daughter has her own destiny, and it is time she found it. She ended up in jail for a week after we stopped shielding her from the consequences of her rebellion against a prison school system. They don't teach, they train future slaves. <My daughter resisted. She just needed to learn to "feed the crocodiles, lest they devour you", as Boris Mouravieff noted. Today, three years later, she it working full time and attending a community college and applying for nursing school. She responded rapidly, once her parents stopped trying to protect her from her own destiny. I know there are legal implications of an underage child, but in my opinion she is trying to assert her independence and self as is normal for a young women her age. She seems spirited and rebellous and this world doesn't encourage questions or freedom. You might get a more complete picture of the American school system by reading John Taylor Gatto's work at--http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/. I wish you and your daughter well in the hard work of growing up.

It is a very difficult situation, but she is acting like a child, so treat her like a child - which means she doesn't get a choice - to my understanding, Free Will has nothing to do with children - and a parent's job is getting the child to adulthood safely and well - sounds like, considering your choices in the past, you have a challenge on your hands.

It seems like a problem that society considers a seventeen year old women a child. Her hormones are telling her she is an adult. It is difficult, but I wonder if it isn't time to let her be adult, and learn her lessons. I also have a son who quit school taking a GED after his sophmore year of high school. I encouraged him to go out in the world and support himself. I told him I would help with education if he decided to go back to school. He was twenty-five when he went to school with ten years of hard experience in the world, supporting himself. He is a very competent and compassionate man today. In my opinion, we keep are children-children far too long.

 

[webglider]

Sir Ken Robinson makes an entertaining (and profoundly moving) case for creating an education system that nurtures creativity, rather than undermining it. With ample anecdotes and witty asides, Robinson points out the many ways our schools fail to recognize -- much less cultivate -- the talents of many brilliant people. "We are educating people out of their creativity," Robinson says. The universality of his message is evidenced by its rampant popularity online. A typical review: "If you have not yet seen Sir Ken Robinson's TED talk, please stop whatever you're doing and watch it now."

I agree. I listened to the talk and it makes absolute sense to me. It doesn't apply to my daughter's case, however. She has had many opportunities to discover and nurture her creativity: violin lessons, dance lessons, two roles in an Off-Broadway play. In junior high school she was in a special drama program for three years. She has been encouraged to write stories and poems. She likes Anime and works on that with her friends creating comics. However she never seems to finish anything.

The first two years of high school she attended a start up private school which believed in allowing children to dictate their own learning agenda. Nothing was required, but all was allowed. My daughter did embark on a serious study of history, and knows quite a lot on this subject. I encouraged her to have a goal, to study for the AP exam, but the school did not back me up. She was not required to write papers, or design projects. She knows a lot, but was not required to do anything with this knowledge.

She studied Japanese, and was able to get a scholarship to study in Japan for six weeks last summer.

In the meantime she was not required to take math, or science or other subjects and she didn't. The few obligations she that were required of her, she did not meet.

It was she who demanded to be taken out of the school. She wanted a "real school experience." She now has such an experience, and the school seems caring as well as demanding. During the past fall semester her art teacher came to the conclusion that my daughter is highly gifted in art. However, my daughter subsequently handed in very little work, and received a low grade in the course.

The project she is now failing is on a topic she chose herself. She will not accept direction on how to go about doing it, and is not meeting the requirements. There are protocols that need to be followed in every endeavor. The issue here is not one of creativity. It seems to me that it is about self-discipline. She does not like her advisor, so she does not meet with her. I am not sympathetic.

You might get a more complete picture of the American school system by reading John Taylor Gatto's work at--http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/.

I am very familiar with John Taylor Gatto's work and I highly recommend it. In my particular circumstances, I do not need a more complete understanding of the American school system as I have just retired from working in it after 34 years. I was a whistleblower in that system, and have personally confronted the evil in it.

There is no way that any school official would ever be able to convince me to give my daughter medication.

My aim for my daughter is simply what you stated in relation to your own experience with your daughter: "She just needed to learn to feed the crocodiles, lest they devour you."

Crocodiles are indiscriminate feeders. They will rip apart the creative, the gifted, the talented, the successes, the failures, the wise, the foolish, the sick and the healthy alike.
We are all food for the crocodiles

All children need to learn how to identify and deal with them. This should be the real purpose of education in my opinion.

 

[spyraal]

Hello Webglider,

Somehow your daughter seems like a very normal person to me! (for her age that is). And to explain myself, she looks normal only because she is reacting to what i believe is sickness. If i judge by my own school experience, i was really not that far from her! I still consider my school years as the worst period of my life by far, and still, my ONLY nighmares are about having to return to school for some weird-dreamy reason. Having to "learn" all these worthless and lifeless things was very traumatic. The teachers were miserable and psychotic and the school buildings were like prison yards. That was an Institution, not a school. I had the horrible sensation of being moulded by force to a shape that i could not fit. And as if that was not enough, i had the extreme pressure of my psychopath father. I don't remember ever listening to a supporting word from his lips. This was unbearable! It was the first and only period in my life i actually thought of suicide! There was only pressure, heavy expectations and strictness. I could not "function" at all, much like your daughter. It was only beacuse of my mother's and grandfather's (her father) patience, kindness and support that i made it through.

I had also shown artistic skills from very early age, and i followed a municipality workshop for some years of my childhood. I also had great interest in computers (thank my grandfather) and i got my first computer at the age of 7 (1983!). I studied computer programing in a private school for 6 years. It was great! Until the age of 15, when i "had to get serious" and start worring about the "future", colleges etc. That's when Hell started. But "unfortunately" i already had the experience of working and learning something i trully liked and enjoyed. I had been shown by art classes how to "abstract" and how to "create", and by computer programing how to "think" and "analyze". I felt great joy and self-confidense out of these things, and i was really good at them. For the things i liked i was a very willing student indeed. How do i explain my later educational downfall? Well, i needed space and enthousiasm and there were not any. For my school's criteria to "create" was equal to "disobey", and to "think" was equal to "playing smart" or having a problem with discipline.

Your daughter also seems to be pretty good at whatever see likes also. Maybe you should think more "creatively" about further solutions. I don't think threats and strict discipline will work. Why don't you focus on the things she is good at, and not the opposite? Why don't you talk to her openly about her life and try tapping her enthousiasm for whatever, and work on that thread instead? Your daughter probably needs you more as an ally than as guardian. You are familiar with the Work. What would be the true benefit from her from going to college as it concerns the Work and her spiritual advancement? I would dare to say that there is more damage that good to be found there. What she WILL learn instead in the best case is how to buy and sell, herself and the others. Ok, that might get her a salary someday... Period.

To quote Don Juan: "It doesn't matter how one was brought up. What determines the way one does anything is personal power. A man is only the sum of his personal power, and that sum determines how he lives and how he dies." It is only my opinion, but do not drain your daughter's sense of personal power only because she is not willingly becoming another brick in the wall. Allowing her to let go of her personal power and believing that she is "not enough" for the *$#@ system's shake is a probable mistake and maybe will traumatise her and your relationship. She is ALREADY responsible for her life even though she is still under age, isn't she? You can't walk on her shoes and go to school for her! In my view, you should invest in her responsibity by supporting her, even in these difficult hours. Even more so, to be honest. She is obviously confussed and stressed herself. Take some of her burden, sit down and chat, and give her some understanding. It will pass. Trust that see knows what see doing, and see will respond to you trust i believe. Treat her like an adult if you want to make her act like one. And punishment is not how you treat an adult! Explain her the Facts of life and stand by her side until she comes to her senses from that "educational shock" she is suffering. At least this is only what i think so!
I really wish you that you'll find the best and wisest way to help her.

Spyros

 

[Kel]

Possibly the Anti-Narcissism: Have you looked into the Love and Logic series of books my Foster Cline and Jim Fay?

The love and logic program teaches parents how to love their child by taking care of themselves (the parents) and by allowing their child to suffer real world consequences of not respecting the parents (or others) boundaries. They propose that we teach our children how to take care of themselves and set clear boundaries later in life by the way we take care of ourselves and set boundaries with them early in life. IMO, teaching your child to take good care of herself is the greatest gift. Healthy parents lovingly set clear boundaries about what works and what doesn't work--for the parent--and sympathizes and has compassion for the child's distress in the process of getting used to the boundaries, but the parents hold firm, and the children LEARN.

An example of Love and Logic: I noticed that you said you are sleeping on the couch while she has the bedroom. Let's say for example you decide that this arrangement is not working for you anymore, and possibly under what circumstances it would work for you. The love and logic techniques would be to explain this to your daughter calmly and lovingly. Set up clearly what changes need to take place within what time frame. Give her choices--two or three. Be ready, she will undoubtedly ingore this. When the time frame has expired, you then ask her (very calmly and compassionately) if she would like to help with this. Explain that she can decide which things to keep or where to put her things since she will have considerable less room for her things. If she would not like to help with this, then you will decide what to keep or where to put her things. She will, I promise you, throw huge, frightening fits when she discovers that you intend to take care of yourself--through which you MUST be sympathetic to her frustration. But her things will be moved out and you will take care of yourself. Negotiation Over.

There are several keys to this:
1. You must be clear about what works for you and what doesn't. And don't make things up! Kids will see right through any sort of manipulation.
2. You MUST be compassionate and sympathetic to your child's angst in discovering new boundaries. Even though they have created this situation logically through their choices, doesn't mean they shouldn't be upset about it. They will be upset about it, and that's OK. Learning can be painful. As long as it is "working for you" to be able and listen and be sympathetic, you can listen and be sympathetic. When this no longer works for you, i.e., you might say "you're yelling is hurting my ears now, I need to leave or go in the other room" or whatever, you need to be clear about that as well. Also, your empathy, sympathy, and compassion needs to be real. Kids will see through this as well if they sense that you are being fakey or patronizing.
3. Choices that you give your child must be naturally logical. Don't punish. Don't use consequences as threats rather than a logical outcome of the child's actions. (As in the difference between a consequence and a punishment.)
4. Love and Logic cannot change the child before it changes the parent. (Learning to take care of yourself--reading about narcissistic families--hello!)
5. You cannot use "taking care of yourself" as an excuse for selfishness. I'm sure you know the difference between self care and selfishness.
6. Love and Logic takes extra effort and creativity on the part of the parent. This takes careful planning, esp. in the beginning. If you're not ready to make a decision about an issue, tell the child that. "I'm going to think about this, and I'll get back to you."
7. It's OK for a parent to say they changed their mind.
8. Remember: kids are their own people. It is wishful thinking to want them to be something they are not.

One other point: I have heard from many parents that expecting your teenager to keep their room clean is a hopelessly losing battle. I don't know about that. I think some kids are just neater than other's naturally, but I do think that when you look at this from the POV of self-care for the parent, IF it truly doesn't work for you to look at a mess in your child's room (and this decision may take some deep insight into WHY it doesn't work for you), negotiate some kind of a deal with her; something you can both live with that is respectful to both of your needs.

Anyway, I have only read Love and Logic for Parents. I think they have several more books out for specific age groups as well. BTW, my sister uses this technique in her 7th and 8th grade classrooms and has had phenominal results.

I hope this helps and wish you the best in this trying time.

 

[PepperFritz]

Kel: Wow, what a valuable post. The "Love and Logic" series sounds like an excellent guide to relationships in general, not just those between a parent and child. Your summary of the book's approach is very clear; the third point strikes me as especially important:

Choices that you give your child must be naturally logical. Don't punish. Don't use consequences as threats rather than a logical outcome of the child's actions. (As in the difference between a consequence and a punishment.)

 

[webglider]

I want to thank everyone for all the thought and care put into the responses given in answer to my post.

This is a tumultuous time for my tiny family; and I am working at staying awake enough so that I don't add to the confusion.

As so many of the above posts show, other families have faced similar situations and come out on the other side.

Possibly the Anti-Narcissism: Have you looked into the Love and Logic series of books my Foster Cline and Jim Fay?

No, but I will today.

Thank you for sharing that with me.