The Proper Use Of Free Will In Raising A Child

[nemo]

just wanted to recommend this book (Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility by Cline & Fay) to an acquaintance.
while the overall reveiws are pretty good, i read the following amazon reader review:

"I think many of the techniques in this book are worthwhile. I was shocked, however, to find that the author advocated spanking, qualified
it with an age restriction, and added rules to follow - one of which is "spank only if you can do it in a painful way". There are many ways of
removing a child from a situation to teach them what is unacceptable, or dangerous, behavior. There are usually reasons for the behavior.
Often they are just having trouble communicating. As a parent of an almost two year old I couldn't imagine ever hitting my own child.
I can't think of anything it would teach him except that hitting is okay."

Spanking...I mean...you sure? Or is that some misunderstanding?

 

[Kel]

In regards to Nemo’s post, I was shocked to hear that the authors advocated spanking. I absolutely has no recollection of this. So I went the the index and looked up spanking. There are two instances where spanking is mentioned. This may clarify. It seems that there was a 1st edition which came out on 1990 to “Parenting with Love and Logic”. The new edition was out in 2006 and this is the copy I have.

Spanking

"Daddy, why can't we just have a spanking and get this over with?"

Six-year-old Olivia had just slipped quietly into the living room, where Dad was reading his paper. She begged, "Our friends get to have spankings, and then they get to play. If you give us a spanking, we'll never play in the street again. We're tired of waiting for you to decide what you're going to do."

Yeah, thought Dad, spankings are a lot easier than having to wait and think about what you've done wrong. They give kids a quick escape from the responsibility of living with a bad choice. Instead of having to live with consequences and think about solutions, youngsters have a brief moment of pain, and then they're off the hook.

The original edition of this book advocated the use of spanking in limited, controlled situations. However, as we have grown in our professions and as more valid research has become available, we have changed our position.

There are many good reasons to avoid the use of spankings:
-Empathy and logical consequences are far more powerful than spanking because they teach problem-solving skills.
-Spanking fails to teach the behaviors we want kids to emulate later in life.
-Most kids would rather receive a spanking than have to think about their poor choice.
-More recent research tells us that spanking has many negative side effects, such as anger, resentment, and the desire for revenge.
-Our kids may someday choose our nursing homes.

Love and Logic techniques often leave children wishing for spankings. We were first introduced to this idea when a student from Jim's school, where Jim was the principal, spilled the beans to his therapist. The wonderful counselor, using some reverse psychology, asked this boy, "Tony, do you really have to do what those teachers tell you? Maybe you can get by without following the school rules."

"Oh, no! Oh no!" yelled Tony. "You have to do what they tell you! If you don't, you have to go the Mr. Fay's office than think! I'm not going through that again--no way.!"

Unlike the previous principal, Jim refrained from using the paddle. The simple rule in his office was that kids had to solve the problems they created. They were constantly asking him for spankings instead.



Then in the chapter “Discipline 101", there’s this:

Here’s how Lisa uses these rules to send her five-year-old son, Blake to his room:
BLAKE: “Mom, come here right now!”
LISA: “Hey, kiddo, I don’t like it when you talk to me that way. I’d like you to scoot up to your room and give it some thought.”
BLAKE: “No! I’m not going!”
LISA: “Blake, I would like you to go to your room.”
BLAKE: “No!”
LISA: “Blake, I think you are making a poor choice.”
BLAKE: “You can’t make me go.”
LISA: “ I don’t want to make you. You are making a poor choice. It would be wise for you to go to your room now.”
BLAKE: “No!”
LISA: “Well, I’m disappointed. I wish you had given it more careful thought. I will have to do something else about this, but not right now. I will get back to you on it. Try not to worry.”

Lisa failed, right? Wrong. She merely handled what she could handle. She refrained from spanking. She didn’t carry the boy to his room, as he was too big. She also didn’t issue an order she couldn’t enforce. All of her comments were “I messages”–things she could do, not telling the child what he should do. Correct moves. But she didn’t get results. So later she enlisted the support of her husband, Eric. Lisa talked the situation over with him when he returned home from work and then they engaged Blake in the following discussion at the dinner table:

ERIC: “How did the day go, honey?”
LISA: “Oh, pretty good, But Blake had trouble going to his room.”
ERIC: “You’re kidding?”
LISA: “No, it’s a fact.”
ERIC: “Well, do you think he needs practice, honey?”
BLAKE: “I don’t need practice. I know how to do it.”
ERIC: “You know that when your mother says move, you should move...
Etc... The parents together have Blake practice going to his room so many times before dinner.


Anyway, I’m not convinced that anyone who writes a parenting book has all the answers. And I’ve read quite a few, mostly because raising children has been the most difficult AND important task I’ve ever encountered, and coming from a childhood where spanking and shaming were a natural part of discipline, I knew I wanted some other tools.

I’m also aware that though the a guide book may give some valuable information, parents ultimately must pick and choose what works best for them.

 

[TheSpoon]

I hope this might provide something or at least mirror some aspect you might not have seen? A word of 'warning', Imo alot of the talks on Ted.com is superficial (and the length reflect that) and most of them are on new technology, however a few of them contains a few nuggets.

_http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/66
EDIT: This now redirects to: _http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

Creativity expert[sic..] Sir Ken Robinson challenges the way we're educating our children. He champions a radical rethink of our school systems, to cultivate creativity and acknowledge multiple types of intelligence. Sir Ken Robinson makes an entertaining (and profoundly moving) case for creating an education system that nurtures creativity, rather than undermining it.

I was sent a link to a recent follow up TED talk by Ken Robinson which I found to be most engaging. It reminded me that it's OK not to hot-house my son into being able to write his name at the age of 3 like some of his peers can. My wife and I were a little saddened this week when he came home with a picture he'd coloured in. He told us that Nemo has to be coloured in orange because that's what colour clown fish are. And so the limiting of his creativity begins...

_http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

In this poignant, funny follow-up to his fabled 2006 talk, Sir Ken Robinson makes the case for a radical shift from standardized schools to personalized learning -- creating conditions where kids' natural talents can flourish.

EDIT: Should this thread be moved to the "The Work" / "Family Life" board?

 

[eliansito]

This is an old thread, but rereading it I remembered an instance when a friend of mine who was divorced and had a girlfriend told me he was having a hard time with his 7 year old child not being able to grasp why it was or what was wrong with the little rascal.

I was asking him if they spent time together and such he said yes, that was not the problem then I told him to take him one afternoon for a simple hike on the forest, all by themselves with no people or other distractions around and to go about it without speaking a word to the child other than necessary let alone ask any questions. I don't know why I told him that but it seemed just right at the time, I didnt have kids at the time and surprised myself giving advice....

He did on the next weeekend saturday afternoon and reported that after some time and some play together father/son old style interaction the lil boy just opened up and told him he had overheard him saying that he would have a child with his current girlfriend and he was troubled about that, then he proceeded to explain to him that if they did bla bla bla and that was the end of it, he and the boy were at ease and had found again what was lost.

It might or might not be useful for a case like this post, but i really think some quality time away from the daily hustle and bustle of life can bring communication and understanding to a new level.

In the case of a teenager, a short or not so short trip of discovery to new places for both can be a real refreshing experience and put things into the perspective they belong.

FWIW