"The Secret" from an esoteric perspective

[mada85]

Re: \

I noticed something interesting in this thread which I would like to share. Since Lúthien posted the sweat lodge news story all our comments, including mine, can basically be reduced to ‘look at the stupid new agers and their ridiculous beliefs’. We have lavished our energy on pointing out their mistakes, condemning the futility of their beliefs, and revelling in our own perceptiveness.

And yet they are ordinary people in varying degrees of sleep, just as we all were at one time, and still are perhaps to a lesser degree. Two have died, and another is critically ill in hospital. Which of us would have avoided something like this 10, 15 or 20 years ago? They are seekers, just like us. Perhaps looking in the wrong place, but who can say that there is not a potential SoTT member or more among them? I myself lived in Rajneesh communes for five years in the early to mid 1980s, and was devoted to The Guru, something I now find quite mortifying to consider.

The only truly compassionate and empathic comments are to be found in Galahad’s post which has, to me, the quality of a different light in this thread.

Consider the flavour of these excerpts:

Where've all the neurons gone?!

it boggles my mind that the people running this show thought this was anywhere near "safe."

this is a health hazard, and practicing it, in a way that was done, is a lack of common sense.

So they basically paid 9/10,000 dollars for what amounts to torture...

OH - and this guy is such a monumental narcissist that he says he's being tested!?!

perfectly illustrated by the fact that no one had the common sense to just get up and walk out of there when they realized they couldn't breathe.

What happened to his followers' neurons? They must have been convinced that they were doing something deeply spiritual. The mind boggles.

Yep, and the Native Americans didn't believe that we create our own reality. So why does he need to use their traditions to peddle his beliefs?

I can imagine what some of his fanatic followers would think about this death: "He helped ascend a person!"

And compare them with this:

What strikes me is the hunger in these people to latch onto anything to give one's life meaning, to follow any charlatan.

Now it is clear that there are some valid points raised in the posts regarding the sweat lodge, and I’m not discounting those. I’m posting this because Galahad’s post was a shock to me, and I feel ashamed that I lost my objectivity, empathy and compassion when I was writing my post.

So, thank you Galahad for a very valuable lesson.

 

[anart]

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Well, I stand by my comments, mada85 - James Ray's pushing of a YCYOR mentality led directly to these people's illnesses and deaths. I'm not explicitly blaming the people, but I am explicitly blaming James Ray because from what I've been researching about him over the past few days since this happened this guy is not 'just an honest seeker' like everyone else. He is a fleecer of sheep. If we could reach those seeking with our information, just imagine what a difference that would make!

I'd like to add that while I've never been even vaguely interested in Gurus, communes, or YCYOR or in the newage airy fairy stuff, I can understand how other people can get wrapped up in it by simply only seeing what they want to see and not the whole picture. I've done that in many other areas of my life in the past, I just was lucky enough to avoid it when it came to spirituality. But, to not point out the direct correlation between the YCYOR mentality and this occurrence would be remiss, imo.

 

[Mountain Crown]

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Hi mada85,

I don’t doubt the sincerity of your post or the realization within it, but the quotes you listed don’t read as dispassionate, but critical. In fact most of them are about those who organized the sweat lodge.

It could be reasoned that the above quotes were motivated by indignation that seekers had to die because of the charismatic doings of a spellbinder, and not:

". . .lavishing . . . energy on pointing out their mistakes, condemning the futility of their beliefs, and revelling in our own perceptiveness.”

The fact is that the dumbing down of the people is truly tragic.

 

[Hildegarda]

Re: \

well, I personally said nothing about their beliefs or their supposed futility.

Whatever you believe, 50+ people in a small sweat lodge (constructed without a permit) for 2 hours = bad idea. This has nothing to do with beliefs, this is logistics and disregard of basic safety. And for the guy to say that he "was being tested" by the incident, as if it is about him and his beliefs and not about deaths of people who trusted him, just tops it.

As for the people who went for it, I agree this is a tough question. Paying $9-10K for a retreat is one thing, that's a choice that some people perceive is worth it, even though, from where we sit, it doesn't look like it. But, you have to lose some very basic self-preservation instincts to engage in things that clearly jeopardize your life. It takes some doing to get there, and I don't know exactly what it involves. You asked, which of us would have avoided it 10-20 years ago, and I have to say that I might have dropped 9K on a bunch of bull, before I knew better, but sitting in a crowded sauna for 2 hours -- no, no way; but my temperament has always been high on risk aversion, so that's the only explanation, I take no personal credit for it.

Yet, I have seen people going all the way into unsafe and life-threatening experiences, because they have taken much too far things that are good and rational, belief-wise. E.g., overdosing on vitamins, fasting for too long, or water-birthing w\o hospital access or enough attention paid to details, with disastrous consequences. I don't know if that can be called YCYOR, but it would definitely be a mindset that is fine with risk-taking and ignores a bunch of data in favor of a preconceived picture, and there almost always will be an authoritarian guru that puts further pressure on it. The details of the beliefs themselves, IMO, end up being completely irrelevant.

 

[go2]

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Hi Hildegarda,

I would like to put in a word for risk-taking. The world has too much of the status quo and risk aversion.
Most of the people in the sauna trusted the words of an “authoritarian guru” who created their reality. If
these folks were risk takers they wouldn’t have followed the crowd to their deaths. Risk-taking as a hyphenated
descriptive phrase has been co-opted to describe the behavior of fools or drug addicts, perhaps to
discourage true risk taking, which is future of mankind. Many on this forum are taking a risk pushing the
boundaries of our minds and our understanding of reality.

 

[Hildegarda]

Re: \

Most of the people in the sauna trusted the words of an “authoritarian guru” who created their reality. If
these folks were risk takers they wouldn’t have followed the crowd to their deaths.

you are definitely onto something, go2. It's like in the Women Who Love Psychopaths book: the profiles of many women in Sandra Brown's study were high on risk aversion, and that made them more likely to stay in the relationship with a psychopath, because making any kind of a change is risky, and "better the devil you know", etc.

Many on this forum are taking a risk pushing the boundaries of our minds and our understanding of reality.

agreed!

 

[clerck de bonk]

Re: \

...We have lavished our energy on pointing out their mistakes, condemning the futility of their beliefs, and revelling in our own perceptiveness.

Yes, at least some :( (perceptions where on the spot because the scam was so obvious)

And yet they are ordinary people in varying degrees of sleep, just as we all were at one time, and still are perhaps to a lesser degree. Two have died, and another is critically ill in hospital. Which of us would have avoided something like this 10, 15 or 20 years ago? They are seekers, just like us. Perhaps looking in the wrong place, but who can say that there is not a potential SoTT member or more among them? I myself lived in Rajneesh communes for five years in the early to mid 1980s, and was devoted to The Guru, something I now find quite mortifying to consider.

- Which ordinary people can come up with that amount of money only to put it into something like that?! The bucks have to be pulled from somewhere!
- What/who are ordinary people anyway?
- How much did you pay for Your stay in mentioned Rajneesh communes? In other words, how much did You invest?

If they were potential SoTT members then they would have to wake up at some point.
- Do You wake people up that are sound asleep and want to stay that way?
- What would the waking up processes consist of?

 

[ana]

Re: \

And yet they are ordinary people in varying degrees of sleep, just as we all were at one time, and still are perhaps to a lesser degree. The only truly compassionate and empathic comments are to be found in Galahad’s post which has, to me, the quality of a different light in this thread.


Now it is clear that there are some valid points raised in the posts regarding the sweat lodge, and I’m not discounting those. I’m posting this because Galahad’s post was a shock to me, and I feel ashamed that I lost my objectivity, empathy and compassion when I was writing my post.

Thank you Mada85 this also made me think of how many needy people there is in this world, people searching without really knowing what they are looking for, and finding in their way hungry parasites, traders, merchants, jesters, masters; "knowledgeable of the Word of God" and ignorant regarding themselves, "knowledgeable of the science and laws of this world" and again ignorant regarding themselves.

And where's the difference between all of them? because, Aren't they united in their ignorance in regard to themselves?
And then, Am I not still near them? Am I not still ignoring?

Seems we will always find someone in front of us and someone behind.


Nietzsche says in Thus spoke Zaratustra:

I love him who justifieth the future ones,
and redeemeth the past ones:
for he is willing to succumb through the present ones.

 

[Nienna]

Re: \

The only truly compassionate and empathic comments are to be found in Galahad’s post which has, to me, the quality of a different light in this thread.

Yes, Galahad had a very good point that he made. There are millions of people who are desperately looking for something to save them and if they could be introduced to the EE breathing/mediation program, what a wonderful thing that would be.

But I have to also say that anart and others have brought up some very good points that need to be said.

These same people that are desperate for something to give their lives meaning also need to know that all of the James Arthur Rays they are following are narcissists that are taking them for a ride, and some a ride to their deaths.

If the knowledge of what these people are is not put out there for them to see, then they will never look for anything other than the "quick fix" of these narcissistic people that are taking their flocks for a fleecing - and care nothing about them at all save for the money they are handing over to them.

"Being tested" indeed. What a slimeball!

 

[JonnyRadar]

Re: \

hi mada85,

i wrote this post yesterday in reply to your post, but when i went to post it my connection went down. just going to put it up now as it was written...

---

to say someone lacks in common sense isn't necessarily a judgment on that person, it's an observation. that these men and women reached the point of passing out from heat exhaustion or asphyxiation and didn't do something about it shows that something was seriously wrong.

i'm with you on having acted that way in the past, i've done the same kind of thing. i've spent my whole life since childhood in the church, and was passionate through my teen years for the "cause of christ." i was also blinded and subject to beliefs.

so it's not a "look at these stupid people" kind of thing. it's not disdain for those people or their beliefs, it's frustration with the whole situation. they are who they are and they were taken advantage of. that's what makes me really angry about this.

what makes this truly tragic is that anyone had to die, seeker or not, because Ray and his planners considered the money they would make, and not the safety of the 60-some people they persuaded to cram themselves into a dangerously constructed sauna. fleecing people is one thing, and it's bad enough, but putting their lives in danger for the same purpose is something else entirely.

 

[mada85]

Re: \

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I would like to explain that Galahad’s post was quite a shock for me as I realised that I had more or less mindlessly copied what I perceived to be a general theme of condemnation of the people at the event – the new age types. It would perhaps have been more internally productive to have stayed with the shock and not dissipated its energy by writing. Also, I didn’t write in a very externally considerate way; I just wrote what I saw as though it was undiluted truth. The dominant emotions that were triggered in me were guilt and shame, and these I projected onto some of the comments, and reacted according to my projection.

Recently I’ve been noticing more and more that projection, and taking those projections as reality, happens a lot in me, and so I’m grateful to all those who replied because those replies help me to tune my reading instrument.

So, having written my first post about the sweat lodge event while not carefully thinking about my own individual response to it, I then read Galahad’s post, which exposed to me my lack of thinking in a rather painful way. I don’t know if that was Galahad’s intent, but that is how it affected me.

And last night, feeling quite exposed by my actions and afraid of the responses I would receive, I actually read this . . .

Well, I stand by my comments, mada85 - James Ray's pushing of a YCYOR mentality led directly to these people's illnesses and deaths. I'm not explicitly blaming the people, but I am explicitly blaming James Ray because from what I've been researching about him over the past few days since this happened this guy is not 'just an honest seeker' like everyone else. He is a fleecer of sheep. If we could reach those seeking with our information, just imagine what a difference that would make!

. . . as an angry tirade against me! Well, I know and greatly respect anart’s contribution to the forum, and I’ve never read an angry tirade from her, so I questioned my reaction to her words, and this made me think more critically about my reaction and reasoning, and what I had written.

It could be reasoned that the above quotes were motivated by indignation that seekers had to die because of the charismatic doings of a spellbinder, and not:

". . .lavishing . . . energy on pointing out their mistakes, condemning the futility of their beliefs, and revelling in our own perceptiveness.”

MC, I think you’re correct, and when I really think and consider that ‘seekers had to die because of the charismatic doings of a spellbinder’ – well, that makes me angry. It makes me want to poke those seekers and wake them up! It also gives me a different perspective on the posts I quoted.

50+ people in a small sweat lodge (constructed without a permit) for 2 hours . . . has nothing to do with beliefs, this is logistics and disregard of basic safety . . . people going all the way into unsafe and life-threatening experiences, because they have taken much too far things that are good and rational . . . and there almost always will be an authoritarian guru that puts further pressure on . . .

Hmmm – now I notice in my psyche a rather bizarre program to do with my father, which goes something like this: I feel guilty whenever someone attacks my father/other authority figure (which attack by the way is often well deserved), and I should try to stop them. That’s a definite product of narcissistic wounding in childhood.

Thank you for your post, Hildegarda.

- How much did you pay for Your stay in mentioned Rajneesh communes? In other words, how much did You invest?

Virtually everything. All my income, all my possessions, my whole life – for five years. I have only a handful of things left from my life before the Rajneesh cult. All my books went, my sound system and all my records went, as did all the paintings I had done and all my art materials; not to mention all my friends. And did I learn from it? Yes – I learnt that I will always approach any teacher/guru figure with the greatest caution, and yet sometimes I forget this lesson.

- Do You wake people up that are sound asleep and want to stay that way?

No.

- What would the waking up processes consist of?

Making knowledge available, without coercing the seeker in any way.

what makes this truly tragic is that anyone had to die, seeker or not, because Ray and his planners considered the money they would make, and not the safety of the 60-some people they persuaded to cram themselves into a dangerously constructed sauna. fleecing people is one thing, and it's bad enough, but putting their lives in danger for the same purpose is something else entirely.

You’re absolutely spot on with this, JR.

And if you and others have read this far, I’d like to thank you all for your input – it has been most helpful. Thank you all.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: \

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I would like to explain that Galahad’s post was quite a shock for me as I realised that I had more or less mindlessly copied what I perceived to be a general theme of condemnation of the people at the event – the new age types. It would perhaps have been more internally productive to have stayed with the shock and not dissipated its energy by writing. Also, I didn’t write in a very externally considerate way; I just wrote what I saw as though it was undiluted truth. The dominant emotions that were triggered in me were guilt and shame, and these I projected onto some of the comments, and reacted according to my projection.

Recently I’ve been noticing more and more that projection, and taking those projections as reality, happens a lot in me, and so I’m grateful to all those who replied because those replies help me to tune my reading instrument.

So, having written my first post about the sweat lodge event while not carefully thinking about my own individual response to it, I then read Galahad’s post, which exposed to me my lack of thinking in a rather painful way. I don’t know if that was Galahad’s intent, but that is how it affected me.

And last night, feeling quite exposed by my actions and afraid of the responses I would receive, I actually read this . . .

Rest easy Mada85! I didn't take any offense at your post. I read it and considered if what you were saying applied to me. This is a discussion and all opinions are welcome.

As for the comment I made, I do wish I had phrased it a little differently as I was mainly speaking to the amount of money that is charged to people by others who claim to care about them. I have mixed feelings about the people who were at the retreat. Part of me is annoyed at them, part of me is annoyed for them. People are searching and I suppose there will always be some who don't think any price is too high (whether their money or their lives). I just don't get how they can justify the price for helping people. Do they think some people are more worthy of help than others? I guess so. Do they care if anyone went into debt to go to this retreat? Probably not.

What will be interesting to see is whether Mr. Ray will offer to refund anyone.

 

[NormaRegula]

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Ray, who said he is "being tested" by the tragedy, added that he wrestled with whether to go through with Tuesday's seminar. He said it had been scheduled weeks before the Arizona retreat.

"My advisers told me, 'Don't do that. You don't know who'll show up. They're going to eat you alive,'" he told the audience. But he said it was important for him to keep his commitments.

Sounds more like a commitment to keep his food supply via the seminar participant's energy, both spiritual and in the symbolic form of money, from drying up completely.

"I'm grieving right now," said Ray. "I'm grieving for the families."

Crocodile tears. A normal human being would have the decency to cancel such an event due to the preceding tragedy.

The comments followed a demand earlier Tuesday from a spokesman for Brown's family for more accountability from Ray.

Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation."

McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities that Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Well, let's hope the family members of the injured and deceased keep after Ray and hold him accountable, despite this so-called acknowledgement that the activity could cause harm. That clause alone should have given a person pause to consider the sweat lodge benefits.

Ray's reaction reminds me somewhat of Vinnie Bridges moaning about his commitment to a scheduled conference after Laura and Ark called VB out on his deceits and did the decent thing by bowing out. Of course, Vinnie was none too happy with having his anticipated food supply cancelled. VB then tried to manipulate the situation further by telling anyone who would listen that the conference cancellation was an act of irresponsibility, among other projections and disgusting lies, on Laura and Ark's part. Yup. Pity poor Vinnie. He was so committed to going on with the show.

Looks like Ray is using tools from the pathological arsenal to deflect blame: pity ploys...denial...making himself the tragic victim ("I'm being tested!") while insinuating that the dead and injured should have known what they had committed to.

What strikes me is the hunger in these people to latch onto anything to give one's life meaning, to follow any charlatan.

Yes. How tragic. How utterly sad that these participants desired something so badly that they were willing to follow this greedy guy's con so completely. Wonder if any of the survivors learned a lesson regarding blind belief?

Just think if we could reach these people and the many others out there who are searching with the Éiriú Eolas breathing programme.

Yes to that, too.

 

[clerck de bonk]

Re: \

- How much did you pay for Your stay in mentioned Rajneesh communes? In other words, how much did You invest?

Virtually everything. All my income, all my possessions, my whole life – for five years. I have only a handful of things left from my life before the Rajneesh cult. All my books went, my sound system and all my records went, as did all the paintings I had done and all my art materials; not to mention all my friends. And did I learn from it? Yes – I learnt that I will always approach any teacher/guru figure with the greatest caution, and yet sometimes I forget this lesson.

I think we have here the trigger to Your response ;)
If(hypothetically speaking) I would have gone through the same, going hole hog for learning and emerge on the otherside, with knowledge(as You did), I would still have residue left, identifying myself with(seemingly) likeminded people etc.

PS. Said hypothesis would never work in reality with me since I'm too proud and too lazy->learning is slow overhere :(

 

[mada85]

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The UK Daily Mail has published a new article about the Sedona sweat lodge tragedy, which includes extracts from an interview with one of the participants: _http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1222251/Five-days-fasting-sleep-deprivation-mind-altering-exercises-Sweat-lodge-survivor-tells-guru-caused-deaths.html

Here’s a couple of extracts that say rather a lot about James Arthur Ray.

One man was burned when he crawled into the rocks, seemingly unaware of what he was doing, she said. Ultimately, three people would die.

When participants exhibited weakness, Ray urged them to push past it and chided those who wanted to leave, she claimed.

'I can't get her to move. I can't get her to wake up,' Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge.

Ray's alleged response: 'Leave her alone, she'll be dealt with in the next round.'

Bunn, a 43-year-old Texas resident, provided her wrenching description of the sweat lodge tragedy in an interview, the first public account from a participant in the October 8th ceremony.

It also marks a significant revelation in the criminal investigation into Ray over the episode because it portrays him as driving participants to stay in the lodge despite signs all around him that the situation had gone bad.

Ray told participants the sweat lodge ceremony would be one of the most intense experiences of their lives.

As it neared the end, Bunn said some participants found themselves physically and mentally unable to tend to those around them.

After the eighth round, Ray instructed them to exit the sweat lodge just has they had entered - going clockwise, a movement meant to symbolize being inside a mother's womb.

What followed was a triage situation with people laid out on tarps and water being thrown on them to bring down body temperatures.

Some people weren't breathing and had bloodshot eyes. One woman unknowingly walked toward the fire before someone grabbed her, Bunn said.

Shouts of 'we need water, we need water,' rang out. 'They couldn't fill up the buckets fast enough,' Bunn said.

Off to the side, a medical doctor participating in the retreat performed CPR on Shore and Brown with the aid of others. When Bunn asked if she could help because she knew CPR, she was told to stay back.

Ray was standing about 10 feet away, watching, Bunn said.

'He didn't do anything, he didn't participate in helping. He did nothing. He just stood there.'

And, on another note:

I think we have here the trigger to Your response

Well, that's close enough for horseshoes! :D